Protection

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280093694' post='2388722']
"Hey, these guys are protected ... can you peace out?" does not require mind reading.
[/quote]

To which the answer is "protected by whom and where can I read this protection".

Sorry if you don't like that but in the end it doesn't matter what _you_ like as no one really cares.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1280093737' post='2388725']
It sounds like GOONS raiding policy was inaccurate (failed to predict a succesfull raid ) yet again. It seems that either social changes need to happen to bring GOONS raiding policy more in line with the social environment they are trying to predict, or GOONS could reevaluate the validity of their policy.
[/quote]

Surely you jest, sir.

[wickedj]

Wonderful. go back to hiding under the Orders, GOONS

[Moridin]

Let me get this straight. Being something of a spectator here, I would appreciate if either side can clarify what I interpret as the events in this raid:

[list=1][*]GOONS members find no information indicating Soldiers of Legion is a protected AA after taking reasonable steps to find such information.[*]GOONS proceeds to raid Soldiers of Legion.[*]CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS states they will finish the current round of raids but not re-declare.[*]CptGodzilla informs the general public via these forums that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS offers peace.[/list]
Is this correct, or am I missing something?

Edited July 25, 2010 by Moridin

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280093837' post='2388727']
To which the answer is "protected by whom and where can I read this protection".

Sorry if you don't like that but in the end it doesn't matter what _you_ like as no one really cares.
[/quote]


Again, they don't need to "prove it" ...

Also: plenty of people care, meanie head.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094020' post='2388731']
Let me get this straight. Being something of a spectator here, I would appreciate if either side can clarify what I interpret as the events in this raid:

[list=1][*]GOONS members find no information indicating Soldiers of Legion is a protected AA after taking reasonable steps to find such information.[*]GOONS proceeds to raid Soldiers of Legion.[*]CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS states they will finish the current round of raids but not re-declare.[*]CptGodzilla informs the general public via these forums that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS offers peace.[/list]
Is this correct, or am I missing something?
[/quote]


Seems pretty much on that line.

[Moridin]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280094092' post='2388734']
Seems pretty much on that line.
[/quote]

Alright, so why is there a difference in GOONS' response when CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC as opposed to the forums? Nobody can fault GOONS for the initial raid, but it seems odd that there is such a noticeable difference in GOONS' response depending on the mode of communication.

[Cotillion]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1280093943' post='2388730']
Wonderful. go back to hiding under the Orders, GOONS
[/quote]

I thought that they hide under MK.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280094040' post='2388732']
Again, they don't need to "prove it" ...

Also: plenty of people care, meanie head.
[/quote]

If they wanted GOONS to stop, then yes they do/did.

Edited July 25, 2010 by King Puffington

[Alterego]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094020' post='2388731']
Let me get this straight. Being something of a spectator here, I would appreciate if either side can clarify what I interpret as the events in this raid:

[list=1][*]GOONS members find no information indicating Soldiers of Legion is a protected AA after taking reasonable steps to find such information.[*]GOONS proceeds to raid Soldiers of Legion.[*]CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS states they will finish the current round of raids but not re-declare.[*]CptGodzilla informs the general public via these forums that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS offers peace.[/list]
Is this correct, or am I missing something?
[/quote]
Missing one thing. GOONS implied he was lying

[4:34:00 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I'm compromising as far as making sure that your guys don't get raided in the future. I'm offering that because the raids as far as I can see are valid since no protection notice exists.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280019296' post='2387841']
According to who?

Also, you held a MADP with SoL before they decided to merge. Those who raid that AA should simply stand down when asked.
[/quote]

GOONS has never cared too much about their allies' bloc mates or allies. It's a shame, really.

[quote]

After asking around, the only reason that Beefspari said the raids would continue, is more or less due to the nicety of the person asking her.

Also, ideally, we should've peaced out (I won't argue with you there), but the lack of public statement of such protection made the whole thing stink, and so the raids continued until the public announcement.
[/quote]

Or you could, you know, take the word of someone you share a mutual ally with. Out of respect for your ally, if nothing else.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Penkala

[Cotillion]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1280094331' post='2388740']
Missing one thing. GOONS implied he was lying

[4:34:00 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I'm compromising as far as making sure that your guys don't get raided in the future. I'm offering that because the raids as far as I can see are valid since no protection notice exists.
[/quote]

Were they not correct in that no protection notice existed?

[Moridin]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1280094331' post='2388740']
Missing one thing. GOONS implied he was lying

[4:34:00 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I'm compromising as far as making sure that your guys don't get raided in the future. I'm offering that because the raids as far as I can see are valid since no protection notice exists.
[/quote]

Well, that was my interpretation as well as to why they didn't halt the raids immediately, but why, upon this announcement, did GOONS decide he wasn't lying? Is someone more likely to lie via IRC than on the forums?

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094267' post='2388737']
Alright, so why is there a difference in GOONS' response when CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC as opposed to the forums? Nobody can fault GOONS for the initial raid, but it seems odd that there is such a noticeable difference in GOONS' response depending on the mode of communication.
[/quote]

Typically ( 99% of the time) protection treaties are posted for public notice either here, on the wiki or on the personal information site of either AA. This wasn't the case and anyone can;

1. Pretend to be someone
2. Make up pretend/false information
3. Demand that it be taken for fact

I am sorry but someone showing up in IRC for the first time and stating this and that with no proof is simply going to be ignored (unless they are a known person that has had contact with gov before regardless of friend/foe status). No attacks happened after he came into IRC anyhow, peace just wasn't offered.

Except in my case, I offered peace to my target long before this person came into IRC and the peace was rejected via CMs. I have an outstanding peace offer with my target with no retaliation after the CMs.

Edited July 25, 2010 by mrwuss

[Alterego]

[quote name='King Puffington' timestamp='1280094430' post='2388743']
Were they not correct in that no protection notice existed?
[/quote]
He was told moments before it did. His response was not that I can see. I would take that as being called a liar.

[Emporor]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094020' post='2388731']
Let me get this straight. Being something of a spectator here, I would appreciate if either side can clarify what I interpret as the events in this raid:

[list=1][*]GOONS members find no information indicating Soldiers of Legion is a protected AA after taking reasonable steps to find such information.[*]GOONS proceeds to raid Soldiers of Legion.[*]CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS states they will finish the current round of raids but not re-declare.[*]CptGodzilla informs the general public via these forums that Monos Archein is protecting Soldiers of Legion.[*]GOONS offers peace.[/list]
Is this correct, or am I missing something?
[/quote]

Hit it on the head..


What I can't understand is this, what makes you GOON members think that the AA wasn't protected? I mean, it says that SoL merged.. but, I fail to see when the said merge was to have happened, or to what extent the AA was to be protected. Now before you start jumping on that last sentence, lets hit this point up. It has been argued and won several times that an AA that merges into another alliance belongs to that alliance.. so as far as I am concerned or anyone else in CN, the SoL AA belongs to MA..


EXACTLY where do you guys have any right at all to raid that AA? Even if it doesn't state that it was protected, it does basically state that the AA is owned by MA.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094496' post='2388746']
Well, that was my interpretation as well as to why they didn't halt the raids immediately, but why, upon this announcement, did GOONS decide he wasn't lying? Is someone more likely to lie via IRC than on the forums?
[/quote]


They require public documentation ... in triplicate ... with proper and legal signatures.


I guess.

[ShadowDragon]

[quote name='King Puffington' timestamp='1280094430' post='2388743']
Were they not correct in that no protection notice existed?
[/quote]

There is public record of MA having a MADP with SoL, which was never announced anywhere to be canceled or made invalid. Just because someone edits the wiki saying they merged doesn't automatically make their ties disappear.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='ShadowDragon' timestamp='1280094622' post='2388751']
There is public record of MA having a MADP with SoL, which was never announced anywhere to be canceled or made invalid. Just because someone edits the wiki saying they merged doesn't automatically make their ties disappear.
[/quote]

A more conservative raider(s) would have not gone through with the raid until they spoke directly with someone in MA .gov and gotten clearance or at least a clarification on the status of the old AA. Then again, GOONS isn't a conservative raiding alliance. Currently they have around 87 separate wars in progress, even though the alliance itself is not currently officially at war.

[SirWilliam]

Whether a state of protection existed - and was announced - prior to the raids is a non-issue considering that MA has now made it clear that the SoL AA is protected, in which case, being a protected alliance, cessation of attacks and declarations of peace would be in order.

I have confidence that, despite the rabble rousing of the masses, GOONS will handle this situation amicably.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1280096338' post='2388777']
Whether a state of protection existed - and was announced - prior to the raids is a non-issue considering that MA has now made it clear that the SoL AA is protected, in which case, being a protected alliance, cessation of attacks and declarations of peace would be in order.

I have confidence that, despite the rabble rousing of the masses, GOONS will handle this situation amicably.
[/quote]


Uh , it was handled.

They all have peace offers.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280096440' post='2388781']
Uh , it was handled.

They all have peace offers.
[/quote]

Then all is good.

(I was uncertain if it had been handled, and was responding mostly to others' posts about how the situation was and should have been handled by giving thoughts of my own on it.)

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280096440' post='2388781']
Uh , it was handled.

They all have peace offers.
[/quote]

If that's the case, what in gods name is the issue? Or is it just people freaking out again whenever GOONS name is mentioned in public :x

[Gofastleft]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1280097581' post='2388800']
If that's the case, what in gods name is the issue? Or is it just people freaking out again whenever GOONS name is mentioned in public :x
[/quote]


Ding Ding Ding, and we have a winner.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1280087862' post='2388578']
This is extremely puzzling statement, given the amount of time GOONS .gov spends apologizing in threads like this one. Either your raiders aren't following through as they should because they aren't aware of the rules (doing do diligence), or you have a percentage of them that know the rules, but are simply ignoring them.

[/quote]
Check it out, Hal:
[quote name='Iserlohn' timestamp='1280086967' post='2388562']
if this fact is politely communicated to them,[/quote]
We're talking about an alliance that delights in being as rude and crass as possible and sits around saying "you didn't ask nicely hur hur hur." The rules are a veneer to facilitatte the backpedaling necessary with the screwups perpetrated by a bunch of screwups.


[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280091283' post='2388664']
After asking around, the only reason that Beefspari said the raids would continue, is more or less due to the nicety of the person asking her.

Also, ideally, we should've peaced out (I won't argue with you there), but the lack of public statement of such protection made the whole thing stink, and so the raids continued until the public announcement.
[/quote]
Whether or not a treaty-chain beatdown happens seems like it would require a mor eimportant question to GOONS than "how nice is this person asking." Also, welcome to kindergarten, everybody.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1280096338' post='2388777']
Whether a state of protection existed - and was announced - prior to the raids is a non-issue considering that MA has now made it clear that the SoL AA is protected, in which case, being a protected alliance, cessation of attacks and declarations of peace would be in order.

I have confidence that, despite the rabble rousing of the masses, GOONS will handle this situation amicably.
[/quote]
Yeah, read up, buddy. Your petty ally took it to the brink using your checkbook twice this week.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Moridin]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1280097581' post='2388800']
If that's the case, what in gods name is the issue? Or is it just people freaking out again whenever GOONS name is mentioned in public :x
[/quote]

It is quite common in our public discourse to examine the actions of various alliances in recent conflicts in an attempt to determine if anyone was right or wrong. I'm not sure how you haven't noticed this yet in your time in the Cyberverse.