Red Raiding Safari

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='21 July 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1279692506' post='2382176']
What in the world are you talking about? If you're trying to analogue that to the USSR war it's not even close to what happened.
[/quote]

Having to echo Beefspari here, because what are you talking about, duder?

[Dan100]

[quote name='Millencolin' date='20 July 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1279602986' post='2380017']
I got my tech and jollies out of this, was fun. Plus, we gained a \m/ember out of it.
[/quote]

But a poor why to gain tech

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Comrade Goby' date='20 July 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1279682615' post='2381907']
No war?

Well I'm sure harsh words will do something! I love that can-do attitude.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]What can people do? Make a suicidal charge at you that will accomplish absolutely nothing? No, people will bide their time and wait. That is exactly what the alliances of Karma did when the old rulers of the world taunted them as being nothing but talk. How quickly people forget history.[/color]

[quote name='D34th' date='21 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1279687764' post='2382084']
This isn't what you charter/constitution says. About the second part, my bad, I thought that USSR attacked just the raiding nation.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I just feel that it should be noted that GOONS has PZIed (or EoGed as they like to call it) nations that have defended their alliances (small alliances which GOONS claims aren't alliances to be more precise). I'll dig up the announcement one of this days, but I do believe it can be found it on of GOONS recruitment messages. They take pride in their accomplishment apparently.[/color]

Edited July 21, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Ryan Greenberg]

The teach raid was unnecessary and stupid in my opinion, but if Red Dawn is so pissed about it then declare war. You would have my personal support, but now this just all looks even more of stupid conflict.

EDIT: If I said something wrong about the situation, I'm sorry. I don't feel like going through 33 pages of posts.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ryan Greenberg

[James IV]

This is worth more to the NPO not DoWing. They can easily recruit new members who want revenge and will sell tech to boost the upper tier and they can be the "victim" on the political scene.

[Aurion]

Well, well.

Congrats to NPO on successfully baiting several alliances to mass-raid Red nations, I imagine you'll be trying your best to bank some PR points off of this.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='James IV' date='21 July 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1279694507' post='2382208']
This is worth more to the NPO not DoWing. They can easily recruit new members who want revenge and will sell tech to boost the upper tier and they can be the "victim" on the political scene.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Well, technically they are the victim if what your members say is true (that this whole affair exists only to 'poke the NPO in the eye'). And of course you have to somehow spin some fantasy into this about why the NPO is under your bed waiting to get you. Paranoia at its finest.[/color]

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='21 July 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1279694659' post='2382212']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, technically they are the victim if what your members say is true (that this whole affair exists only to 'poke the NPO in the eye'). And of course you have to somehow spin some fantasy into this about why the NPO is under your bed waiting to get you. Paranoia at its finest.[/color]
[/quote]
er....James IV is in Nordreich. Ignore the ODN thingy.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 07:44 AM' timestamp='1279694646' post='2382211']
Well, well.

Congrats to NPO on successfully baiting several alliances to mass-raid Red nations, I imagine you'll be trying your best to bank some PR points off of this.
[/quote]

I so hope you're joking when you say this. While I believe the Revenge Doctrine should be rescinded, you can't believe NPO sent spies inside MK and \m/ to convince them to raid unaligned Red just to gain PR points. It's pretty pathetic to believe they facilitated this at all.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Omniscient1

[Aurion]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='21 July 2010 - 03:02 AM' timestamp='1279695732' post='2382234']
I so hope you're joking when you say this.
[/quote]

Nah.


[quote]While I believe the Revenge Doctrine should be rescinded, you can't believe NPO sent spies inside MK and \m/ to convince them to raid unaligned Red just to gain PR points[/quote]
Nothing [i]quite[/i] so sinister.

I simply think that making a huge deal out of calling it the [i]Revenge Doctrine[/i] wasn't a coincidence.

[quote]It's pretty pathetic to believe they facilitated this at all.[/quote]

Baiting people you don't like into doing stupid things is pretty common, actually.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1279696482' post='2382247']
Baiting people you don't like into doing stupid things is pretty common, actually.
[/quote]

Considering NPO is usually scared !@#$less about being rolled. I don't think they would have tried to bait anything like this.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Omniscient1

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='21 July 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1279694850' post='2382218']
er....James IV is in Nordreich. Ignore the ODN thingy.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I thought he was in MK actually. I must be thinking of a different James. Nevertheless, what I say remains true.[/color]

[Aurion]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='21 July 2010 - 03:18 AM' timestamp='1279696717' post='2382251']
Considering NPO is usually scared !@#$less about being rolled. I don't think they would have tried to bait anything like this.
[/quote]

If they talked the talk and the raiding alliances don't react, it's a material victory.

If the more aggressive raiders [i]do[/i] react (which they did) it's a big PR victory because there is always a huge !@#$fest whenever someone mass-raids.

And God above forbid that the more aggressive raiders ever sacrifice their pride, so it really was only going to end one way.

Edit: Now that I think on it, I guess you don't even really need to factor in the raiders not reacting in the current political clime. So it really was a forgone conclusion.

Edit 2: And bluntly, if whoever was responsible for this little policy gem couldn't see that coming a mile away, they should immediately resign whatever office they currently hold. They are [i]clearly [/i]mentally unfit for that duty.

So it follows logically: Why do it, if you know it will turn out like this?

I [i]guess[/i] they could plead insanity...

Edited July 21, 2010 by Aurion

[Captain Flinders]

This seems like quite the pickle. I'm so happy it doesn't involve me.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='21 July 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1279698874' post='2382275']
This seems like quite the pickle. I'm so happy it doesn't involve me.
[/quote]
It's nowhere near as big a pickle as the KoN raids were, despite the efforts of NSO and assorted other posters to paint it as such. If the nations being hit were on any other colour there wouldn't even be the smallest noise raised; apart from the redness of those nations these raids are no different in scale or ferocity than what goes on every single day.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Voytek

[hizzy]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1279697236' post='2382258']
If they talked the talk and the raiding alliances don't react, it's a material victory.

If the more aggressive raiders [i]do[/i] react (which they did) it's a big PR victory because there is always a huge !@#$fest whenever someone mass-raids.

And God above forbid that the more aggressive raiders ever sacrifice their pride, so it really was only going to end one way.

Edit: Now that I think on it, I guess you don't even really need to factor in the raiders not reacting in the current political clime. So it really was a forgone conclusion.

Edit 2: And bluntly, if whoever was responsible for this little policy gem couldn't see that coming a mile away, they should immediately resign whatever office they currently hold. They are [i]clearly [/i]mentally unfit for that duty.

So it follows logically: Why do it, if you know it will turn out like this?

I [i]guess[/i] they could plead insanity...
[/quote]

tl;dr - it's NPO's fault that tech raiders act like douchebags.

You forgot the 3rd option; tech raiders could have continued to raid on red and ignoring the doctrine instead of turning it into a 3 ring circus act and making themselves look like clowns. Look what you're doing here, making me actually defend NPO, who I actually have less love for than GOD and GOONS combined (or maybe the proper term would be subtracted? you know what I mean, anyways).

[ktarthan]

[quote name='KingAdam' date='20 July 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1279689836' post='2382122']
"Pick on someone your own size." Yes tech raid an alliance of comparable size to your own and make things interesting. Not the micro alliances who have option 1 take their beating and run away when your finished or option 2 fight back and be crushed. I don't understand how tech raiding people like that can possibly be entertaining. To each his own though.
[/quote]
What I was referring to is while you (and others) make this argument, others still express concerns that we [i]will[/i] pick on someone our own size. If we only raid unaligned nations, we pick on the weak. If we were to raid fully-fledged alliances, we'd be out of control and equally as bad. In this respect, we literally have no right course of action but to take the middle ground we have.

[Vol Navy]

It would appear that MK has decided to take their safari to another color, black, and raid our protectorate California. Down to one nation now, but I don't believe our protectorate with them has been cancelled. It's listed on our public forum and in our active protectorates on our treaty wiki.

Same AA that PC decided to raid during the middle of Karma.

Does MK generally raid protectorates? I am not in gov, but this does sadden me.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='20 July 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1279688662' post='2382100']
I really wish the "anti-raiders" would make up their mind on the bolded points. It honestly does confuse me.
[/quote]
Maybe you'd be less confused if you didn't condense every single "anti-raider" alliance into a single voice. Sparta does not tech raid, but I still have my own justifications regarding the subject, as well as a fairly objective view of it. To try to smash us into one opinion won't go well for you.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='21 July 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1279701586' post='2382285']
It would appear that MK has decided to take their safari to another color, black, and raid our protectorate California. Down to one nation now, but I don't believe our protectorate with them has been cancelled. It's listed on our public forum and in our active protectorates on our treaty wiki.

Same AA that PC decided to raid during the middle of Karma.

Does MK generally raid protectorates? I am not in gov, but this does sadden me.
[/quote]
Congratulations on bringing up a completely unrelated raid and attempting to force it into being relevant to this thread I guess. Have you even tried speaking to MK government before coming here?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Voytek

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='21 July 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1279701600' post='2382286']
Maybe you'd be less confused if you didn't condense every single "anti-raider" alliance into a single voice. Sparta does not tech raid, but I still have my own justifications regarding the subject, as well as a fairly objective view of it. To try to smash us into one opinion won't go well for you.
[/quote]
I apologize if it appeared I was generalizing your opinion - as I explained above, I was simply indicating that when it comes to choosing the size of our targets, there is always going to be someone to find fault.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Voytek' date='21 July 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1279702029' post='2382289']
Congratulations on bringing up a completely unrelated raid and attempting to force it into being relevant to this thread I guess. Have you even tried speaking to MK government before coming here?
[/quote]

Well, as I said, I am not in our Gov, so I do not speak to the Gov of other alliances over things like this.

I took it to be somewhat related as the first war was declared with the reason "going on safari" and figured MK members might have decided to make it a multi-colored safari.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='21 July 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1279702058' post='2382290']
I apologize if it appeared I was generalizing your opinion - as I explained above, I was simply indicating that when it comes to choosing the size of our targets, there is always going to be someone to find fault.
[/quote]
I've never had a problem with the size of targets that most tech raiding alliances seem to settle on in their various rules of conduct. Although I feel there can be some risk of driving new nations from Bob if they're attacked while unaligned, I do understand the benefits outside of that. My point in saying I would be worried if you started raiding or bullying larger alliances is that it's (as far as i know) outside of your tech raiding laws. If you changed those laws to accommodate larger alliances though, i have a feeling it'd be met with resistance. XD

[Voytek]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='21 July 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1279702329' post='2382291']Well, as I said, I am not in our Gov, so I do not speak to the Gov of other alliances over things like this.[/quote]
I don't see what's stopping you, but even with that self-imposed limitation you could have taken it to your own government and let them speak to us. Much better solution than getting all excited at the thought of being able to ~get one in~ on us and rushing off to this thread.

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='21 July 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1279702329' post='2382291']I took it to be somewhat related as the first war was declared with the reason "going on safari" and figured MK members might have decided to make it a multi-colored safari.[/quote]
We're always on a multi-coloured "safari". There is nothing particularly special or out of the ordinary about the red raids beyond the added layer of tension brought on by the Red Dawn thing. It has a symbolic name, but there is very little coordination going on between alliances.

[Iosif]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='21 July 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1279701586' post='2382285']
It would appear that MK has decided to take their safari to another color, black, and raid our protectorate California. Down to one nation now, but I don't believe our protectorate with them has been cancelled. It's listed on our public forum and in our active protectorates on our treaty wiki.

Same AA that PC decided to raid during the middle of Karma.

Does MK generally raid protectorates? I am not in gov, but this does sadden me.
[/quote]

This is honestly pretty ridiculous. I mean, when alliances raid a lot, it usually also means someone's going to $%&@ at some point. It's obvious from your comment that you haven't been a government member of a raiding alliance, because that really happens all the time and then usually the diplomatic squad comes and saves the day. As a sidenote, the most notorious raider alliances tend to act very smoothly and efficiently if something goes wrong. They seriously have top-notch diplomats you're not going to have troubles with if you're being reasonable at all, believe me.

Anyways, most raider alliance charters don't consider small alliances (<10) to be actually alliances, but they still are pretty strict about not raiding protectorates. It doesn't mean mistakes don't happen, because we're all !@#$@#$ human beings. Especially one man AAs are often totally disregarded as not being alliances at all, because pretty much every single one man AA is a disbanded alliance or a non-alliance. California seemed to be an exception, and I'm pretty sure your gov will or has already contacted MK government and this is not going to be a problem. Find out what's going on before you open your mouth, or you'll going to look like a retard. Like just now.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Iosif