Dear Legion

[AnCapistan]

You know you've messed up when you're being insulted by your own side.

[Vol Navy]

If you don't like how your alliance is run, start your own or join one that does things differently. Getting on here and crying about it after you have broken rules you agreed to is just pathetic imo.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='06 July 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1278460503' post='2361756']
If you don't like how your alliance is run, start your own or join one that does things differently. Getting on here and crying about it after you have broken rules you agreed to is just pathetic imo.
[/quote]

I was one of the 5 founders of Quantum. How well did that work out for me? I'm happy that they're so successful because they're worlds beyond where I ever thought they'd be, but I'm not there. Because once again, free speech is such a liability. Booted from a chancellor position in Quantum for the very same thing. Standing up to the Legion.

And really? The rules I agreed to? Come on. This is beyond ridiculous. This is them nitpicking because some bully decided he didn't like what I had to say. Boo hoo to them.

Edited July 6, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[Letum]

There is always a special flavour to the outraged righteousness of someone who simultaneously claims not to care because it's an online environment with zero tangible consequences, but simultaneously needs to spend so much time outlining why everyone else sucks and he/she shouldn't have to listen to them.

I don't know why it has become so common. I suspect modern humans are way too coddled and can't stand it when the line pushes back at them.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Letum

[The Arbiter]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='07 July 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1278460549' post='2361757']
I was one of the 5 founders of Quantum. How well did that work out for me? I'm happy that they're so successful because they're worlds beyond where I ever thought they'd be, but I'm not there. Because once again, free speech is such a liability. Booted from a chancellor position in Quantum for the very same thing. Standing up to the Legion.

And really? The rules I agreed to? Come on. This is beyond ridiculous. This is them nitpicking because some bully decided he didn't like what I had to say. Boo hoo to them.
[/quote]
[quote]Two: Membership

A: Member nations are encouraged, but not required, to join the Purple Team, as the bulk of The Legion's nations are situated on that colour. This is to help the growth of The Legion and Purple alike.

B: Membership of other alliances is prohibited.

[b] C: Members of The Legion agree to be bound by this Charter and the Code of Ethics. Any member found in violation of the Charter and/or Code of Ethics may be subject to disciplinary action.[/b]

[b]D: All Legionnaires are entitled to freedom of speech, within the boundaries set by the Charter and Code of Ethics.[/b][/quote]

[quote]Code of Ethics

Legionnaires are expected to maintain the following code of ethics:

Legionnaires are expected to respect one another. [b]Legionnaires will always follow the orders of higher ranks unless they violate international codes of conduct.[/b] Legionnaires will never attack their neighbors unprovoked. Legionnaires will never access the private forums of other alliances without permission or act in malice to the Legion and its allies. Legionnaires will never violate Operations Security (OPSEC) or leak proprietory or secret information. Failure to follow these strictures will result in punishment in accordance with the Judicial system. [/quote]

Bold parts are the important parts. You agreed to both the Charter and the Code of Ethics when you applied to our alliance. You broke the rules. You stated this, after I gagged you "Don't think so. I'm entitled to my free speech. If you want to limit free speech, then perhaps the people who want to talk need to find other alliances, or the people who want to limit the free speech need to go elsewhere.." Finding another alliance was a very viable option for you at that point.

You were free to leave the AA at any time you pleased with no consequences. It's not like we said "500 tech or we ZI you." It was 500 tech if you wanted to say. You chose to go, that's fine. Absolutely fine. It was best for all of us that you left. As a member of Legion you forfeited your freedom of speech no matter what the Constitution of the USA or what Aimee Mann says. In the words of Trey Parker, if you don't like it you can git out.

Edited July 7, 2010 by The Arbiter

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Letum' date='06 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1278460882' post='2361765']
There is always a special flavour to the outraged righteousness of someone who simultaneously claims not to care because it's an online environment with zero tangible consequences, but simultaneously needs to spend so much time outlining why everyone else sucks and he/she shouldn't have to listen to them.

I don't know why it has become so common. I suspect modern humans are way too coddled and can't stand it when the line pushes back at them.
[/quote]

Good of you to try and defend them, but I think the argument is a moot point by now.

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='06 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1278460945' post='2361768']
You agreed to both the Charter and the Code of Ethics when you applied to our alliance. You broke the rules. You stated this, after I gagged you "Don't think so. I'm entitled to my free speech. If you want to limit free speech, then perhaps the people who want to talk need to find other alliances, or the people who want to limit the free speech need to go elsewhere.." Finding another alliance was a very viable option for you at that point.

You were free to leave the AA at any time you pleased with no consequences. It's not like we said "500 tech or we ZI you." It was 500 tech if you wanted to say. [b]You chose to go, that's fine.[/b] Absolutely fine. It was best for all of us that you left. As a member of Legion you forfeited your freedom of speech no matter what the Constitution of the USA or what Aimee Mann says. In the words of Trey Parker, [b]if you don't like it you can git out.[/b]
[/quote]

Fancy that. I did "git" out. I'm sick of you guys preaching against the freedom of speech. Its just a futile method used to shut your members up when they say something you don't agree with. And on top of the BB gag, you only gagged me and no one else. That's when I go back to my comment and say once again, that Legion makes rules that it expects only some of its members to follow them. End of story. You were allowed to go on and say witless jargon, but yet no one stifled your right to talk...though they prolly should have.

[jooshbox234]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='06 July 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1278460549' post='2361757']
I was one of the 5 founders of Quantum. How well did that work out for me? I'm happy that they're so successful because they're worlds beyond where I ever thought they'd be, but I'm not there. Because once again, free speech is such a liability. Booted from a chancellor position in Quantum for the very same thing. Standing up to the Legion.

And really? The rules I agreed to? Come on. This is beyond ridiculous. This is them nitpicking because some bully decided he didn't like what I had to say. Boo hoo to them.
[/quote]

So who are you to insult Hubb?

[flak attack]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='06 July 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1278460945' post='2361768']
Bold parts are the important parts. You agreed to both the Charter and the Code of Ethics when you applied to our alliance. You broke the rules. You stated this, after I gagged you "Don't think so. I'm entitled to my free speech. If you want to limit free speech, then perhaps the people who want to talk need to find other alliances, or the people who want to limit the free speech need to go elsewhere.." Finding another alliance was a very viable option for you at that point.

You were free to leave the AA at any time you pleased with no consequences. It's not like we said "500 tech or we ZI you." It was 500 tech if you wanted to say. You chose to go, that's fine. Absolutely fine. It was best for all of us that you left. As a member of Legion you forfeited your freedom of speech no matter what the Constitution of the USA or what Aimee Mann says. In the words of Trey Parker, if you don't like it you can git out.
[/quote]
Does that look to anyone else like it says "you have freedom of speech, unless your gov says otherwise"

[Kryievla]

I can completely relate, and hope that you have better luck & leadership in your next incarnation.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='07 July 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1278460549' post='2361757']
I was one of the 5 founders of Quantum. How well did that work out for me? I'm happy that they're so successful because they're worlds beyond where I ever thought they'd be, but I'm not there. Because once again, free speech is such a liability. Booted from a chancellor position in Quantum for the very same thing. Standing up to the Legion.
[/quote]


How about this, find an alliance that allows you to say what you wish, there are a few out there. If you put rules in place in an alliance you founded to limit speech or so that you could be removed from leadership, that is once again on you.

In the future DO NOT sign up for alliances that have limits on speech if you value it so highly. Although in most situations you are probably going to find that alliance leadership has the ultimate say in what is allowed to reflect back on the alliance via these forums and if you got far enough over the top or starting divulging secrets most any alliance that you join would probably tell you to stop posting.


I have personally never heard a word from my alliance about what can or can't be said on here, but when I signed up years ago I agreed to follow the Evil Overlord and uphold our charter, so if I were ever told not to post, I would either not post or resign from TPF if I felt my need to post was burning that strongly.

I would not start a big thread bawwing about it. Just my .02 though.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='jooshbox234' date='06 July 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1278461220' post='2361777']
So who are you to insult Hubb?
[/quote]

I was active with Quantum. Hubb never replied to a single PM or concern I had. He either ignored it, or pushed it down to the consulate. I made a message about how offended I was about the racism and sent it to all parties of the government who weren't involved. Not a single reply. I guess no one cares about an environment where we can live free of harassment and hate. That's my gripe. I'm sorry Hubb has RL things to do etc, but the bottomline is, the serious stuff like the racism, you don't ignore. And he did. That's why I brought him in. All he had to say was "go to hell its taken care of." Couldn't even do that. Took me 2 seconds to write that now.

[quote name='flak attack' date='06 July 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1278461314' post='2361780']
Does that look to anyone else like it says "you have freedom of speech, unless your gov says otherwise"
[/quote]

That's exactly what it looks like it says. Its apparently not necessary to read between the lines because its plain as day.

Edited July 7, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[The Arbiter]

[quote name='flak attack' date='07 July 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1278461314' post='2361780']
Does that look to anyone else like it says "you have freedom of speech, unless your gov says otherwise"
[/quote]
I'd hope so because that's exactly what it says.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='06 July 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1278461337' post='2361782']
How about this, find an alliance that allows you to say what you wish, there are a few out there. If you put rules in place in an alliance you founded to limit speech or so that you could be removed from leadership, that is once again on you.

In the future DO NOT sign up for alliances that have limits on speech if you value it so highly. Although in most situations you are probably going to find that alliance leadership has the ultimate say in what is allowed to reflect back on the alliance via these forums and if you got far enough over the top or starting divulging secrets most any alliance that you join would probably tell you to stop posting.


I have personally never heard a word from my alliance about what can or can't be said on here, but when I signed up years ago I agreed to follow the Evil Overlord and uphold our charter, so if I were ever told not to post, I would either not post or resign from TPF if I felt my need to post was burning that strongly.

I would not start a big thread bawwing about it. Just my .02 though.
[/quote]

Sure. Maybe this doesn't look that great, but my image is tainted enough as it is. The bottomline is I did leave mostly because I was sick of having my rights stepped on. But its so much more than freedom of speech. Go back and read the rest of the first post...tell me if we're on the same page.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='06 July 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1278453264' post='2361525']
As you can see, I'm leaving. [/quote]

This would have been sufficient, but of course it would have robbed you of your 15 minutes...

[quote]But before I go for good, I'd figure I'd let you in on the secrets of how you did me wrong. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't all bad, but your bad apples have ruined the fun. I guess this all stems from your IG, a non government member giving me an order to pay 500 tech for disobeying a consulate member. Who was this member you ask? Well he is known as the Arbiter. You know, he's the one you hear about for making the racist comments on IRC, driving members out and talking crap about foreign leaders on their channels. Well played. Very nice. Very classy. I guess part of the reason of this little topic is to advise you to get your government on a tighter leash. They seem to think they can do whatever they want. Even your non government like the IG. Dolling out punishments as he sees fit, when in the charter it says he has no government authority. [/quote]

People don't drop 500 tech "fines" on others just because they jay walked. My sense is you aren't telling the whole story or even half of it.

[quote]The reason I joined you guys back in 9/2007 is because the first coming of \m/ left many of its members out to dry. I thought you guys were better than that; the shafting of loyal members and all.[/quote]

Love how you attribute motivations to people when you clearly don't understand their rationale of three years ago. I sense a pattern.

[quote]Your last Imperator just resigned. I'm not sure what he did for you guys in the last war you were in. I was busy in the land of RL. But I can tell you that in my 4-6 weeks back with you...he didn't do crap. Didn't answer a single PM, barely posted, was never on IRC and really didn't do a whole lot of what I saw. The good members, you know who you are. I won't name you, or call you out, or call on you. Because you know who you are, and I don't want you associated with someone like me; someone who stands for what they think is right and fair. I've always said, you don't have to like me, but you damn well better respect me. Like I said, you have more good members than bad members. But the bad members just taint and sour the whole experience.[/quote]

So the old Imperator wasn't the guy for the job. Fine. It happens. But to say you are doing this just because you are standing up for what is right and fair, I'm sorry I can't buy that.

[quote]I will not pay 500 tech for a punishment I didn't deserve for disrespecting someone who thinks he's above the law and king of the world. You gave him an inch, and he took a mile. Get that poodle on a leash before he ruins your whole image. [/quote]

You seem to be doing a pretty good job yourself.

[quote]In regards to the previous sentence ^; I don't take orders from dudes who aren't old enough to buy smokes, drink, or get into strip clubs. Sorry.[/quote]

I can do all those things and the fact you would need to point out how much older you are IRL than your fellow players and alliance mates who are here trying to learn something about being leaders and responsibility tell me that perhaps you're jealous that people far younger than you have more power and responsibility in an Internet browser game than you do. Nice show of class and maturity.

[quote]I encourage you to ban me from your forums...as I won't be returning anyway.

I encourage you to ZI me. Because this is just a game. You guys take everything far too seriously.[/quote]

Yet you go on to talk about "joining the other side" as though you plan to get some measure of revenge. Is it really "just a game" now? Really?

[quote]You reprimanded me for trying to defend your image on the BBs here, when some of you were too timid or lazy to stand up for your alliance. I do you a solid and you stab me in the back. Shame on you Legion. SHAME. ON. YOU. [/quote]

Maybe, just maybe, there were other considerations for why people weren't responding in kind? Or did that occur to you at all?

[quote]I can see why you have been disrespected for so many years. The tomato throwing crowds have convinced me and I've come to agree with them. Get it together. I asked you to before I left the last time and you ignored me. You have certain officials to listen to concerns of the membership, but in reality they ignore people and do nothing. You let the conduct on your forums get out of control and don't care. Whatever. [/quote]

You compliment them on their choice of new leadership and then this? Why would they even listen to your advise at this point? Oh that's right, you go on to state they won't...because they are...bratty kids or what?

[quote]I will play again...someday. I just wrapped the length of rope around Falcon's neck on the gallows and someday we'll come back with a new identity. Wasting a reroll to voice my concerns and stick it you on my way out was worth every pixel...which in fact you may start destroying now. To my real friends, when I come back, it won't be anything related to the current life I have now. But maybe you'll know its me when I return.
[/quote]

I honestly think you need to rethink your approach to the game and whether it is right for you, not just re-roll and join Mushroom Kingdom (or any other alliance for that matter). Take an extended break. Enjoy the summer. Then perhaps come back. Even then, the underaged "kids" will still be here with titles you can't stand, I'm afraid.

Those who know me know that I'm always encouraging people to stay and play. Find new challenges. Establish new goals. Doing so has made this game highly enjoyable for me for the past nearly 3 1/2 years despite all the highs and lows and I've been as high and as low as one player can get. In your case...I'm not sure that is the best advise.

[jooshbox234]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='06 July 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1278461410' post='2361784']
I was active with Quantum. Hubb never replied to a single PM or concern I had. He either ignored it, or pushed it down to the consulate. I made a message about how offended I was about the racism and sent it to all parties of the government who weren't involved. Not a single reply. I guess no one cares about an environment where we can live free of harassment and hate. That's my gripe. I'm sorry Hubb has RL things to do etc, but the bottomline is, the serious stuff like the racism, you don't ignore. And he did. That's why I brought him in. All he had to say was "go to hell its taken care of." Couldn't even do that. Took me 2 seconds to write that now.



That's exactly what it looks like it says. Its apparently not necessary to read between the lines because its plain as day.
[/quote]

But weren't you the one who said "it's just a game"? Hubb has RL issues to deal with, that isn't "just a game". And you know you didn't just innocently go up to him and PM him, you started all the drama that makes the Legion look bad, and you were the one who dragged the whole conflict out.

And you know what? At least Hubb stepped down, instead of being thrown out of his alliance.

Edited July 7, 2010 by jooshbox234

[flak attack]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='06 July 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1278461425' post='2361785']
I'd hope so because that's exactly what it says.
[/quote]
That isn't freedom of speech.

[Megamind]

[quote name='flak attack' date='07 July 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1278461314' post='2361780']
Does that look to anyone else like it says "you have freedom of speech, unless your gov says otherwise"
[/quote]

Personally I'd say it's more like "You have freedom of speech, as long as you use it responsibly"

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='flak attack' date='07 July 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1278461709' post='2361795']
That isn't freedom of speech.
[/quote]


That's true, but that is about as free as he is likely to find on Bob without forming his own alliance.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='jooshbox234' date='06 July 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1278461684' post='2361794']
And you know what? At least Hubb stepped down, instead of being thrown out of his alliance.
[/quote]

How was I thrown out? I posted in the resignations forum. I said I was leaving. No one ZI'd me, attacked me, or said boo about it. Buddy you must be misinformed or must be trying to post this in another topic because it has no place here.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='06 July 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1278461684' post='2361793']
This would have been sufficient, but of course it would have robbed you of your 15 minutes...

People don't drop 500 tech "fines" on others just because they jay walked. My sense is you aren't telling the whole story or even half of it.[/quote]

My fifteen minutes...indeed. Everyone is entitled to them. Let's have some people come out and defend the Legion for once, since you're the first person in 5 pages to do so.

Like I said, I don't care. People ages 13- whatever play this game. I don't give a crap if someone owns a little more "cyber power" than I do. I'm a child at heart, but I'm no retard. In this little area of the world Chairman Hal, you are respected. This microscopic, pinhead section of the world, you are respected. As far as the RL? No one knows. Not about you, me. It could be opposite. They may treat you shady in here and you've got some nice stuff in the RL, or vice versa. Its really funny how far this went. I commend you on trying to quote every section you felt quotable. Props to you. Another person who's opinion means ___________ to me. Fill in the blank.

Edited July 7, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[Kryievla]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='06 July 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1278461425' post='2361785']
I'd hope so because that's exactly what it says.
[/quote]

It's a shame that rule doesn't apply to you personally. I don't know what happened w/ you & this guy, but I've seen enough logs of you talking that I would believe just about anything.

My opinion is not representative of Valhalla government; many of your members are decent, & we like them, but I personally find your 'freedom of speech' abhorrent, and am appalled that you have the nerve to chastise ANYONE.

[Letum]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='07 July 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1278461169' post='2361775']
Good of you to try and defend them, but I think the argument is a moot point by now.
[/quote]

"them"?

I guess it might be nice to view the world through your tinted glasses, where everything is about you and your issues, but I was actually commenting on the wider problem of coddled humans who act as if "freedom of speech" is a magic word that means they can act without consequence, yet magically spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about what others are saying.

I could care less about what specific issue you have with Legion. I am just very, very sad that this type of hypocritical mentality of rejecting all forms of social limits has become so pervasive. Equating the self with righteousness, and thereby creating the link that any conflicting foreign authority is wrong and therefore something to take umbrage at. I see this type of thing online so much, and I always wonder "Is this how these guys are in real life? How the hell do they survive?"

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Kryievla' date='06 July 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1278462316' post='2361809']
It's a shame that rule doesn't apply to you personally. I don't know what happened w/ you & this guy, but I've seen enough logs of you talking that I would believe just about anything.

[b]My opinion is not representative of Valhalla government;[/b] many of your members are decent, & we like them, but I personally find your 'freedom of speech' abhorrent, and am appalled that you have the nerve to chastise ANYONE.
[/quote]

Sad that you have to post that. I guess that's where I went wrong. Guess I should have said that or, "if I have my opinion, The Arbiter would be upset with me and whine and cry that I said something he didn't like." Because the funny part was no one else cared that I was posting in that thread. Only him. Funny how that works. Just showing that since I came back he's the only one who still holds a grudge towards me.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Letum' date='06 July 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1278462431' post='2361813']
"them"?

I guess it might be nice to view the world through your tinted glasses, where everything is about you and your issues, but I was actually commenting on the wider problem of coddled humans who act as if [b]"freedom of speech" is a magic word[/b] that means they can act without consequence, yet magically spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about what others are saying.

I could care less about what specific issue you have with Legion. I am just very, very sad that this type of hypocritical mentality of rejecting all forms of social limits has become so pervasive. Equating the self with righteousness, and thereby creating the link that any conflicting foreign authority is wrong and therefore something to take umbrage at. I see this type of thing online so much, and I always wonder "Is this how these guys are in real life? How the hell do they survive?"
[/quote]

You can't possibly be from America [and I'm not attacking you], but someone from America would have never said that. See that's the problem with this world...game, country where I'm from. Its a right they give you, but institute it when they deem it appropriate. There's not enough people like me to stand up to the right crushing tyranny of government like Legion etc.

[u]EDIT[/u]: Hmmm. I talked myself in a circle at the end, and I see it now. Better late than never I suppose...

Edited July 7, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='alyster' date='06 July 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1278455661' post='2361609']
Really sad to see you have to wash your dirty laundry in front of everyone. [/quote]
Is that really the right term? XD
[quote name='alyster' date='06 July 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1278455661' post='2361609']
If you had had any respect for Legion you wouldn't have posted it imo.

But then again, it's just me, I'm biased.
[/quote]
I think the OP stated that he lost respect for legion, hence the posting of this thread.

Anyway man, i saw some legion people call you out publicly in the sanction thread, and that was both surprising and not well handled. It's good that you finally came to this realization of your alliance of 3 years, but as always, coming to the OWF rarely helps the situation get resolved.

Also Arbiter, you may be a douche, but you're a funny douche.