United Purple Nations - Regnum Invictorum Announcement

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='abdur' date='05 June 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1275772931' post='2325006']
Is that the best you got? A quote taken out of context from the beginning?
Yeah, not liking odds WAS the reason why they didnt join. Read my previous post and try harder next time.

UPN still has its core group. It will regain its sanction shortly.

I think UPN would take it as a compliment to have ODN as an ally.

Edit: Damn you Lukcia!
[/quote]
You keep screaming out of context, out of context, but that's just not true. UPN and BAPS were talking about how and why they would enter wars. This is the subject of the conversation, and that line summarizes Altheus' stance.

ODN has been a joke for so long it isn't funny, it's few and far between that would consider it a "compliment" that ODN is their closest ally. Frankly i'm shocked they were accepted into C&G, but at least there they may be held to honour their treaties.

[Torito]

I recently left UPN as well, and its incredibly funny how ignorant people like you, Alterego, are about the situation but how much you seem to be furious about it. UPN has always been an alliance that prides itself on being transparent, open, and democratic. Of course this is not always the case and sometimes causes people to leave. After realizing the gravity of their situation, the UPN government decided to put war to a vote among the general membership, many government members voted for war on iFok, FCO, and other fronts in the war, but the membership overwhelmingly chose neutrality. If the government had chosen to go to war with either side in this conflict they would have essentially shown a big middle finger to their members. No doubt mistakes were made, going back much further than the actual war mistakes were made in UPN's foreign policy, but I for one applaud UPNs decisions in that war, because its an excellent example of UPNs commitment to its OWN MEMBERS above commitment to loud, obnoxious, and ultimately meaningless agitators like you.

o/ UPN, may you live up to your founding principles more and more each day.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Torito' date='05 June 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1275773889' post='2325024']
I recently left UPN as well, and its incredibly funny how ignorant people like you, Alterego, are about the situation but how much you seem to be furious about it.
[/quote]
If furious pretty much all the time, even good news makes me furious. Its beyond my control.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Torito' date='05 June 2010 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1275773889' post='2325024']
I recently left UPN as well, and its incredibly funny how ignorant people like you...
[/quote]

People on the outside always claim to know everything about an internal situation.

[Torito]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' date='05 June 2010 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1275774184' post='2325034']
People on the outside always claim to know everything about an internal situation.
[/quote]

I wasn't on the outside, I was inside, I joined DRAGON only a few days go. Not that you're wrong.

[Lord Levistus]

Pure democracies are slow, and hard to work with. That's why most quality alliances have done away with that.

You elect the government, and trust them to look out for the membership and the Alliance as a whole, and sometimes that means unpopular decisions.

[Torito]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1275774375' post='2325041']
Pure democracies are slow, and hard to work with. That's why most quality alliances have done away with that.

You elect the government, and trust them to look out for the membership and the Alliance as a whole, and sometimes that means unpopular decisions.
[/quote]

You're right, just making decisions without consulting the membership which you swear to protect when they join is much easier.

[James Saams]

[quote name='Torito' date='05 June 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1275773889' post='2325024']
After realizing the gravity of their situation, the UPN government decided to put war to a vote among the general membership, many government members voted for war on iFok, FCO, and other fronts in the war, but the membership overwhelmingly chose neutrality.
[/quote]
Which shows that the overwhelming majority don't want to have to honor their treaties if it means a possible loss. An overwhelming majority of low quality members makes for an overwhelmingly low quality alliance.

[Torito]

[quote name='James Saams' date='05 June 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1275774543' post='2325046']
Which shows that the overwhelming majority don't want to have to honor their treaties if it means a possible loss. An overwhelming majority of low quality members makes for an overwhelmingly low quality alliance.
[/quote]

So you don't like UPN? What have we learned?

[joracy]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1275772286' post='2324974']
well, here's a little something from the "people like you"


You want big evil Valhalla, fine. I'm not going to pull punches. UPN let their closest allies rot because they didn't like the odds. They let their bloc get decimated, because they wanted to be sanctioned.

Now a core group has left them, and they've lost that sanction they never deserved.
Now their closest ally is the Optional Defense Network.

Rather fitting if i may say so myself.
[/quote]

Oh man, a two year old joke and an old out of context line from a former leader. This is fantastic.


[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1275773271' post='2325016']
oh, hate is such the wrong word. I hold them in contempt. That's completely different.

There was NOTHING stopping you from helping on Invicta's front. You can twist and turn it however you will, but that's a fact. The Purple front had little to do with the TOP vs C&G front. FAN took the opportunity to attack Valhalla's MDoAP partner. Valhalla was obligated to respond. DT and Nor responded against Valhalla, one also had no treaty claims for involvement. THAT brought in Poseidon. Then iFOK through one of the most historic reaches of treaty chaining ever seen hit your closest ally, Invicta.

Throwing a little cash their way after they ate nukes for 2 weeks is hardly honouring the relationship the two AA's had held previously.

And here, I'll quote Altheus' explanation behind that quote, it makes no difference.
..as you see, it doesn't change the meaning at all. If faced with an overwhelming force, UPN wouldn't go. They would sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn.

If i was spreading rumour and conjecture, i would be talking about how UPN's "neutrality" was a request by ODN to keep UPN out of the purple front.
[/quote]

UPN's neutrality was a request, to me personally by UPN's allies. It certainly wasn't our idea or a request by us. It was discussed with and within UPN, and we told them fine as it seemed the best move for everybody.. Also, the idea that the context doesn't change the meaning of that statement is so hilarious, I simply don't know how to respond.

UPN has made mistakes. They have been working incredibly hard to change them selves and have attempted to take responsibility for them. However, your attempts to slur them are just as hilarious and ineffective as they usually are. I'd suggest getting some new material and arguments. Preferably some that aren't old out of context logs, misinformation, and old insults to their allies.

[abdur]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1275773741' post='2325020']
You keep screaming out of context, out of context, but that's just not true. UPN and BAPS were talking about how and why they would enter wars. This is the subject of the conversation, and that line summarizes Altheus' stance.

ODN has been a joke for so long it isn't funny, it's few and far between that would consider it a "compliment" that ODN is their closest ally. Frankly i'm shocked they were accepted into C&G, but at least there they may be held to honour their treaties.
[/quote]
And, who is leading UPN atm? I dont see Altheus doing it.
I am pretty sure MK and co. considers it a compliment to have ODN as their closest ally. They have honoured their treaties, look at the last war.

Also, I am sad that Invicta and UPN have had their FA policies go in different directions, (I still remember the merger talks )

Best of luck in all your future endeavours.

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Torito' date='05 June 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1275774543' post='2325045']
You're right, just making decisions without consulting the membership which you swear to protect when they join is much easier.
[/quote]
Exactly the opposite, to be honest.

Foisting the decisions off to the membership is the easy way out. Means you hold no responsibility for a poor choice.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Torito' date='05 June 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1275774346' post='2325040']
I wasn't on the outside, I was inside, I joined DRAGON only a few days go. Not that you're wrong.
[/quote]

I wasn't referring to you in particular, just citizens of Bob as a whole.

[Torito]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1275774830' post='2325061']
Exactly the opposite, to be honest.

Foisting the decisions off to the membership is the easy way out. Means you hold no responsibility for a poor choice.
[/quote]

That's funny considering that the UPN leadership at the time took some incredible heat for it, and the fact that the membership was consulted hasn't been mentioned much until now.

It's ok though, whatever fits your narrative. Congratulations on being honorable.

[James Saams]

[quote name='abdur' date='05 June 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1275774674' post='2325055']
They have honoured their treaties, look at the last war.
[/quote]
Look at the past wars. One war on the larger side doesn't mean they'll honor their treaties.

[RePePe]

As many of you know, I'm not an old-timer when it comes to the world of Planet Bob. I'm in Valhalla and will defend it to the death, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of making unbiased observations. I have friends on both sides of this little debate here.

Having said that, let's not dance around technicalities. Perhaps UPN is not at fault for the DoN, perhaps they were truly in a difficult situation, perhaps they saw no solution, no front they could join, perhaps they were right in declaring neutrality. Perhaps. But where is there no excuse, no explanation, no reasoning to defend the actions of an alliance as old and experienced as UPN, an alliance that surely knows what it's doing?

Why, the answer to that would come at different points over the many months prior to the war itself. See, friendship is a very noble reasoning for signing treaties with other alliances, probably the best out there. UPN apparently had many friends, and thus wanted to sign many different treaties. However, a treaty is not just about friendship, it is a binding contract. Of course UPN is allowed to be friends with whomever they wish. But in the unfortunate event where their friends are on conflicting sides, what UPN should not do is sign treaties with all of them. Sure you may have to pick and choose, sure you may have to slightly offend one friend or another. But, it is the duty of any alliance to mean what they say in a treaty and honor it.

Thus, I do not buy the fact that you were somehow unaware of the implications of signing conflicting treaties. Frankly, you guys are too experienced and smart for that.

So the fault lies in signing those treaties knowing that should a big conflict come along, should your treaties conflict, and should you be faced with a tough decision, your options were already limited down to one: Leave your allies out to dry.

And that is exactly what happened.

[Haflinger]

It is kinda funny that people are claiming that UPN has always stood for transparency. Well, illusions are meant to not be broken, I guess.

[abdur]

[quote name='RePePe' date='05 June 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1275775275' post='2325081']
As many of you know, I'm not an old-timer when it comes to the world of Planet Bob. I'm in Valhalla and will defend it to the death, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of making unbiased observations. I have friends on both sides of this little debate here.

Having said that, let's not dance around technicalities. Perhaps UPN is not at fault for the DoN, perhaps they were truly in a difficult situation, perhaps they saw no solution, no front they could join, perhaps they were right in declaring neutrality. Perhaps. But where is there no excuse, no explanation, no reasoning to defend the actions of an alliance as old and experienced as UPN, an alliance that surely knows what it's doing?

Why, the answer to that would come at different points over the many months prior to the war itself. See, friendship is a very noble reasoning for signing treaties with other alliances, probably the best out there. UPN apparently had many friends, and thus wanted to sign many different treaties. However, a treaty is not just about friendship, it is a binding contract. Of course UPN is allowed to be friends with whomever they wish. But in the unfortunate event where their friends are on conflicting sides, what UPN should not do is sign treaties with all of them. Sure you may have to pick and choose, sure you may have to slightly offend one friend or another. But, it is the duty of any alliance to mean what they say in a treaty and honor it.

Thus, I do not buy the fact that you were somehow unaware of the implications of signing conflicting treaties. Frankly, you guys are too experienced and smart for that.

So the fault lies in signing those treaties knowing that should a big conflict come along, should your treaties conflict, and should you be faced with a tough decision, your options were already limited down to one: Leave your allies out to dry.

And that is exactly what happened.
[/quote]
One problem though, the treaties signed with Odn and FEAR were not in the past few months, and UPN did not expect FEAR to attack ODN.

[Kryievla]

Sorry to see something like this between two friends. Best of luck on your chosen paths.

[Learz]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='05 June 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1275766971' post='2324781']
Hadn't read that far when replying! I am shamed. So we can assume that Invicta would rather enjoy dancing on the graves of ODN and NpO, and that UPN would love nothing more than to see another ex-Heg beat down? Cool, good to know where everyone stands
[/quote]
An old saying seems relevant here: "Assumption is the first step into a shallow grave".

[Eric Cantona]

Children! Stick to the topic.

[jer]

[quote name='Learz' date='05 June 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1275776162' post='2325104']
An old saying seems relevant here: "Assumption is the first step into a shallow grave".
[/quote]
Is that a threat? You are going to have me KILLED for merely speculating on the real meaning of this treaty downgrade? This is outrageous.

Nevertheless, you are free to correct my assumptions and ill-informed comments any time you like. In fact I would welcome it!

Edited June 5, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='05 June 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1275776933' post='2325139']
Is that a threat? You are going to have me KILLED for merely speculating on the real meaning of this treaty downgrade? This is outrageous.

Nevertheless, you are free to correct my assumptions and ill-informed comments any time you like. In fact I would welcome it!
[/quote]
Aimee, he's not going to correct you, neither is he going to assassinate you (lol).

Making assumptions is a punishment in itself.

[queenhailee]

I'm sad to see what this simple announcement has become. The smallest scent of blood and folks jump in to pick at the carnage. I really do understand folks felt betrayed. How and why has been explained over and over since the war. Nothing is to be gained by rehashing it except to put up more walls.

UPN made some mistakes. They readily admit that. I'm guessing if asked, they'll admit that they'll likely make some more.

At the same time, they've been making changes they feel are right to avoid making the same mistakes again. I disagree with some of them, understand most of them. Will it work? Only time will tell. What UPN needs from me (and us) is the chance to right their ship--for us to sit back and give them the space to breathe.

Peggy inherited a hard job. She gets to deal with the fallout of those mistakes even though she opposed the position at the time. Managing the kind of growth they've had can be very difficult. Losing a splinter group of active, involved folks in the middle of all of it doesn't help the situation.

Do I believe the aid UPN sent negated what came before it? No. You can't erase your history. You can only do what you can to atone for it. It's there. The money didn't erase anything, but it was something they [i]could[/i] do. And Invicta did dearly need that money. Re-hashing what happened (on either side) isn't going to change history either. This history can't be erased. All anyone can do in this kind of situation is work their butt off to not repeat mistakes.

UPN cut the only official tie they had to Olympus. I truly don't have a horse in this race. A lot of other folks in the thread don't either. I know I'm ready to stop rehashing the same arguments. It's time for UPN to step up and fix what didn't work and it's time for me to put anger and disappointment on the shelf and give them a chance to do it.

[Magister Agricolarum]

There is a great deal that I would dearly love to say, but I'll restrict myself to observing that I'm glad to see that this treaty [i]finally[/i] reflects the nature of the relationship between the two alliances.