An Apology to TDO

[kpcurley]

wow so what planet bob is trying to say here is: ADI can never do any good?

Lay off of them, I think they did a nice an admirable thing by apologising. Just let the old grudges go and worry about your own alliances for now.

[the masheen]

To the rogues: Yeah, if you want to start talking about your motives maybe you should open up a new topic? Last I checked this was an "Apology to TDO". I agree with you, and I am both suprised and frustrated of everyone "missing your point" regarding TDO. What has the world come to? If people don't trust what an army of terrorist rogue nations say, then who can we trust?

To Ejayrazz: I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear that I wasn't specifically targeting you in my post. In fact now that I look at it, that's exactly what it looks like . It was just your post that provoked me to respond with another post. I agree with you about pretty much everything. I am overly emotional on this issue because it concerns a lot of personal relationships I've made. The only real problem I have with this post, and I think where we differ, is my philosophy on handling a friend. I was just shocked and utterly disapointed that ADI decided to PUBLICLY condemn Warbuck. I would never do that to a friend, and I can't respect or condone anyone who would. If they wanted to apologize without mentioning names, fine.

To ADI: Good luck. Only you know why you made this post, and the rest is up to everyone's interpretation. I've made mine. I hope you accomplish whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='the masheen' date='11 April 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1271041307' post='2256951']
To Ejayrazz: I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear that I wasn't specifically targeting you in my post. In fact now that I look at it, that's exactly what it looks like . It was just your post that provoked me to respond with another post. I agree with you about pretty much everything. I am overly emotional on this issue because it concerns a lot of personal relationships I've made. The only real problem I have with this post, and I think where we differ, is my philosophy on handling a friend. I was just shocked and utterly disapointed that ADI decided to PUBLICLY condemn Warbuck. I would never do that to a friend, and I can't respect or condone anyone who would. If they wanted to apologize without mentioning names, fine.
[/quote]

I can respect that. Good luck with your future endeavors my friend.

[Lord Tri]

[quote name='mco119' date='11 April 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1271022502' post='2256597']
Finally, I suppose I just question the sincerity of ADI across the board. They say they want change, so they elect Lord Tri. Then, following a war that should have convinced them more than ever of the need to change, what do they do? Right back to a Warbuck groupie. Lord Tri enters peace talks. He tells us that he "will never leave ADI, and will fight to the death!" That "if ADI goes down, he goes down," and that "he loves ADI too much to ever see it fail." We agree on tentative peace terms, and Tri agrees to take them to his government. Two full days pass with no word, and then we find out that not only were the peace terms never even MENTIONED to ADI, but Tri has flat out left the alliance. So much for honesty and the giving of one's word. We enter peace talks with other government members, who assure us that nobody in ADI ever knew about the attacks but Warbuck. We're highly skeptical of that, but things continue. This thread is started. First it is claimed people didn't know about Warbuck's plans, then Nathan Grants admits most did. First it seems okay to denounce Warbuck, then Grant says it isn't. Initially things are humble and sincere, then ADI's leader, with Warbuckesque flair, expresses they will "keep posting as much as they'd like on the OWF, no matter what anybody thinks." I suppose my point is that ADI doesn't seem to be able to tell up from down, or top from bottom. Sorry, ADI, but at this moment I am very skeptical of you...
[/quote]

I really did try very hard to avoid ripping apart this paragraph (at least the part about me)...but here we go again.

[b]"Finally, I suppose I just question the sincerity of ADI across the board. They say they want change, so they elect Lord Tri. Then, following a war that should have convinced them more than ever of the need to change, what do they do? Right back to a Warbuck groupie."[/b]

First and foremost, Lord High Sentinels are not elected, they are appointed by their predecessor. I, someone who disagreed with my predecessor on an almost daily basis (a man you claim is so overly arrogant and incapable of seeing his own wrongdoings), was appointed as Lord High Sentinel, by John Warbuck. I believe I did bring about some change in the alliance's foreign policy.

Nathan Grant, was appointed by ME. Not by popular demand or some election, but by me. I felt he was the best man for the job, and I chose him. Nathan Grant was also far from a "Warbuck Groupie". I can vouch that the two also did not see eye to eye at times, so once again, speaking from your pent up emotions has done you wrong.

[b]"Lord Tri enters peace talks. He tells us that he "will never leave ADI, and will fight to the death!" That "if ADI goes down, he goes down," and that "he loves ADI too much to ever see it fail."[/b]

I never stated any of those things. I told you explicitly and clearly that if peace was not secured, I would stay with ADI until the end. Peace was secured, and as any member of ADI can acknowledge, my resignation was a long time coming.

[b]"We agree on tentative peace terms, and Tri agrees to take them to his government. Two full days pass with no word, and then we find out that not only were the peace terms never even MENTIONED to ADI, but Tri has flat out left the alliance."[/b]

I did in fact bring these terms to my government. I informed Shades, Grant, and I believe Kap and Archon as well. I instructed them to continue the peace talks in my absence, which they did. I also informed your leader, Philip110 of my resignation. So if anyone is having communication issues, that would be you.

[dev0win]

o/
Good luck with the restructure. Forward progress is forward progress.
Lets see what the new ADI can do with a wideopen field.

[mco119]

[quote]
I did in fact bring these terms to my government. I informed Shades, Grant, and I believe Kap and Archon as well. I instructed them to continue the peace talks in my absence, which they did. I also informed your leader, Philip110 of my resignation. So if anyone is having communication issues, that would be you.
[/quote]

Ignoring the rest of your post for obvious reasons, I'll deal with this briefly.

You and I spoke with Phillip on Tuesday night about peace terms via IRC. A full 48 hours later, we spoke to two other ADI government members about the ceasefire. We were able to eventually resolve things by dealing with them. However, neither had heard anything about these peace terms, and both expressed disgust that you had not posted about it on your forums, nor discussed it with your government. I believe the comments were "he never follows the charter, and doesn't consult us." I certainly can provide you with the IRC logs, should you desire that. As for Phillip, yes, he did inform me you were resigning..this does not take away from the contradictions I see between what you said during our private converstaions, and what is being said now. I can provide you with IRC logs of those conversations, too, of course.

Also, you mention that leaving ADI was acceptable since "peace was secured.." Well, sir, peace was not secured. The reality is that you left your position as ADI's leader when EIGHT of your nations were still engaged by my alliance. Yes, a ceasefire was in effect while peace talks were underway, but ADI was most certainly still at war. In fact, you handed the negotiations off (supposedly) to your subordinates while continued war was a STRONG possibility..Please understand that resigning as leader [i]during[/i] a devastating conflict, ceasefire or no ceasefire, is very different than doing so once a peace treaty has been signed. Poor form, IMHO.

Whether it be due to you preparing to leave for another alliance, or to just the terrible organization and communication skills of ADI, your people came very close to seeing the peace talks fail..they squeaked in with a mere two hours to spare before the expiration time of the ceasefire, and that is due solely to zero progress being made for days after we spoke to you.

In any event, there is no point in continuing to debate this. If you appointed Nathan Grant, then any act of poor judgment can be put on you, and not on ADI as a whole. That is a good thing for them. Hopefully they will show greater wisdom in the months to come. Furthermore, Nathan Grant may prove me, and many others, wrong. As you said, perhaps he is very different from John Warbuck. Only time will tell, but I'll be the first to apologize if my concerns turn out to be misplaced.

Until then, try to understand why people are skeptical of ADI's sincerity, as well as its potential for future change. Many of its members, yourself included, have done much to bring this about. The original poster attempted to humbly admit that..You might want to consider doing the same. At least see where people like me are coming from.

Should you have anything further to say, or if you'd like to see those IRCs logs, please contact me privately. No reason to derail this thread further (something I am as guilty of as anyone here). I've said my peace, and so I won't be responding again.

ADI-best of luck. I hope a year from now I'll be amazed at the alliance you have become.

Edited April 12, 2010 by mco119

[erikz]

Oh god, not the whole ADI-TDO thing again

[Captain Enema]

ADI,

Ask yourself what the man at your door would say. I can assure you he'd say, "Lay very low and clean up your shop for awhile."

[claphamsa]

why is everyone telling ADI to not make fools of themselves? Can you imagine how boring it would be right now without them?

[El Hefe]

[quote name='claphamsa' date='13 April 2010 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1271167164' post='2258666']
why is everyone telling ADI to not make fools of themselves? Can you imagine how boring it would be right now without them?
[/quote]

I can imagine it would help lower the level of advil I have to take to read the OWF anymore these days...

[Baltus]

I knew ADI when they were little, and several of the members of ADI yore know me. I talked to warbuck, he was a cool man. I always believed that despite some mistakes they might have made, the alliance was decent. But, today, I am shocked. To attack a neutral alliance, a detailed attack, is just wrong. Good luck, ADI. Good luck.

EDIT: After reading the LSN Ann. I'm a little more confused..but, none the less, Good luck to you.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Baltus

[mco119]

It appears that ADI has now changed the name of their alliance to "The Shadow Proclamation." I would guess they are sick of the bad press they have been getting, and now they are hoping to start fresh...you know what they say, a rose by any other name.... Still, I guess everybody deserves a 2nd (or in this case more like a 3rd) chance.

Edited April 20, 2010 by mco119

[Lord Tri]

[quote name='mco119' date='20 April 2010 - 03:39 AM' timestamp='1271731142' post='2267269']
It appears that ADI has now changed the name of their alliance to "The Shadow Proclamation." I would guess they are sick of the bad press they have been getting, and now they are hoping to start fresh...you know what they say, a rose by any other name.... Still, I guess everybody deserves a 2nd (or in this case more like a 3rd) chance.
[/quote]

You drove an alliance to disbandment and you are still not satisfied? You drive an alliance to the point where it loses crucial members (including myself), rejects its founder, publicly apologizes to TDO, and eventually gives up the name and flag to which many of them so staunchly defended, and you are still making them out to be cowards and scum? Give me a break man. I mean, good Lord, would you like them to start spoon feeding you as well? I really did like speaking with you on our previous occasions mco, but this is just getting ridiculous. Leave them be, and let them forge a new path in the world.

It's also a possibility I misread what you meant by your post, but to me it looks as if you are being quite snide.

[Batallion]

[quote name='Lord Tri' date='20 April 2010 - 04:19 AM' timestamp='1271733548' post='2267327']
You drove an alliance to disbandment and you are still not satisfied? You drive an alliance to the point where it loses crucial members (including myself), rejects its founder, publicly apologizes to TDO, and eventually gives up the name and flag to which many of them so staunchly defended, and you are still making them out to be cowards and scum? Give me a break man. I mean, good Lord, would you like them to start spoon feeding you as well? I really did like speaking with you on our previous occasions mco, but this is just getting ridiculous. Leave them be, and let them forge a new path in the world.

It's also a possibility I misread what you meant by your post, but to me it looks as if you are being quite snide.
[/quote]

This is coming from someone who has recently associated them self with the likes of The Phoenix Federation? Oh please.

[Lord Tri]

[quote name='Batallion' date='20 April 2010 - 04:30 AM' timestamp='1271734196' post='2267336']
This is coming from someone who has recently associated them self with the likes of The Phoenix Federation? Oh please.
[/quote]

What does that have anything to do with what I said?

[mco119]

[quote name='Lord Tri' date='19 April 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1271733548' post='2267327']
You drove an alliance to disbandment and you are still not satisfied? You drive an alliance to the point where it loses crucial members (including myself), rejects its founder, publicly apologizes to TDO, and eventually gives up the name and flag to which many of them so staunchly defended, and you are still making them out to be cowards and scum? Give me a break man. I mean, good Lord, would you like them to start spoon feeding you as well? I really did like speaking with you on our previous occasions mco, but this is just getting ridiculous. Leave them be, and let them forge a new path in the world.

It's also a possibility I misread what you meant by your post, but to me it looks as if you are being quite snide.
[/quote]





First, allow me to be a bit wary of ADI. They have earned the skepticism of Planet Bob, and you have been a major factor in the process. Second, I said quite plainly that I believe everybody deserves a 2nd chance. What that should have told you is that, my concerns aside, I'm open to giving them another shot at righting their wrongs. So, yes, I would say you are partially misreading what I wrote.

If ADI disbanded a couple weeks after our attack, it is because they hope to shift the focus away from the reputation [i]they [/i]earned. If they shunned Warbuck, they did it because they understood (allegedly) that he was a maniac, one that brought war to their doorstep via his actions. Further, I didn't cause you personally to abandon your allaince, when 9 of yours nations were still at war, without even being sure they were discussing potential peace terms. Your lack of integrity caused that, something your former government members likely agree about. You decided to leave ADI, and that is 100% your choice. Incredibly bad form..a fact that I have been respectful enough to you not to point out over on the thread announcing your leadership of a new alliance (as worrisome as that is).

Also, if we "drove" ADI to apologizing to TDO, as you implied above, then I guess you have helped clarify whether or not their apology was sincere..if it was forced, I'd imagine it wasn't. That should be something the CN world notes. Finally, I most certainly didn't call them "cowards and scum." I simply implied I am hesitant to accept the "new" face of ADI...hesitant, but not unwilling. Again, I'm perfectly able to believe people can change, it's just that most of the time they don't.

You're reading into things a bit. My reason for posting today was to point out ADI's name change..people can draw their own conclusions about why they chose to do this. I'd probably advise you to stay clear of this..you're the leader of a new alliance now, and, frankly, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your conduct as ADI's leader. Despite what you may think, your past DOES have great bearing on how you will lead your currect alliance..personally, I think anybody that joins you should know about it.


ETA: Let's BOTH just end these debates. I take responsibility for starting them up again by posting today. As relevant as ADI's new identity might be, I was just asking for a major thread hijack by even showing up here.

Edited April 20, 2010 by mco119

[Lord Tri]

[quote name='mco119' date='20 April 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1271735799' post='2267385']
First, allow me to be a bit wary of ADI. They have earned the skepticism of Planet Bob, and you have been a major factor in the process. Second, I said quite plainly that I believe everybody deserves a 2nd chance. What that should have told you is that, my concerns aside, I'm open to giving them another shot at righting their wrongs. So, yes, I would say you are partially misreading what I wrote.

If ADI disbanded a couple weeks after our attack, it is because they hope to shift the focus away from the reputation [i]they [/i]earned. If they shunned Warbuck, they did it because they understood (allegedly) that he was a maniac, one that brought war to their doorstep via his actions. Further, I didn't cause you personally to abandon your allaince, when 9 of yours nations were still at war, without even being sure they were discussing potential peace terms. Your lack of integrity caused that, something your former government members likely agree about. You decided to leave ADI, and that is 100% your choice. Incredibly bad form..a fact that I have been respectful enough to you not to point out over on the thread announcing your leadership of a new alliance (as worrisome as that is).

Also, if we "drove" ADI to apologizing to TDO, as you implied above, then I guess you have helped clarify whether or not their apology was sincere..if it was forced, I'd imagine it wasn't. That should be something the CN world notes. Finally, I most certainly didn't call them "cowards and scum." I simply implied I am hesitant to accept the "new" face of ADI...hesitant, but not unwilling. Again, I'm perfectly able to believe people can change, it's just that most of the time they don't.

You're reading into things a bit. I'd advise you to stay clear of this..you're the leader of a new alliance now, and, frankly, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your conduct as ADI's leader. Despite what you may think, your past DOES have great bearing on how you will lead your currect alliance..personally, I think anybody that joins you should know about it.
[/quote]

[b]"First, allow me to be a bit wary of ADI. They have earned the skepticism of Planet Bob, and you have been a major factor in the process."[/b]

By all means, be wary, but you don't need to announce your disdain at every occasion. Explain how I have been a factor? I was in ADI for a grand total of three months, was in TDO at the time of that whole incident, and wasn't even gov during the whole RoK fiasco.

[b]"Second, I said quite plainly that I believe everybody deserves a 2nd chance."[/b]

The whole adding that bit in parentheses thing was rather snide, if I do say so meself.

[b]"Further, I didn't cause you personally to abandon your allaince, when 9 of yours nations were still at war, without even being sure they were discussing potential peace terms. Your lack of integrity caused that, something your former government members likely agree about. You decided to leave ADI, and that is 100% your choice. Incredibly bad form"[/b]

I never said you did cause me to leave ADI, that was my personal choice. I was merely stating that I was one of the many who did leave. My lack of integrity as you claim had little or nothing to do with it. If you had actually comprehended what I have posted numerous times, I was planning on leaving ADI well before Semper Tyrannis attacked us, in fact, well before I even became Lord High Sentinel. After Warbuck's [ooc]real life[/ooc] issues began to take hold of him, he appointed me as Lord High Sentinel until he had more time freed up. Warbuck eventually told me that he was not coming back, so I figured it was nearing my time to appoint a successor. Then you guys came along, and my resignation got pushed back, yet again.

I chose to stick it out until I managed to get a cease-fire. In case you forgot, I came to you. I could have done what all of our allies were telling us to do (keep fighting), but that's not me. I have shown repeatedly over my days on Planet Bob that I always choose diplomacy over conflict. Eventually we agreed to a cease-fire. I informed Nathan Grant of the cease-fire, and the terms being discussed. I also gave Shades all of our logs via private message (if you would like screenshots, I'm sure I can pull them up for ya). I then informed Nathan Grant of my intention to resign approximately three days prior to my resignation. I also informed the man you call your leader, Philip110 of my intention to resign. He seemed to have little problem with it, and wished me good luck. Seeing as I still speak to most of my former gov members from ADI on a regular basis, I don't think that they believe me as evil as you claim they do.

[b]"a fact that I have been respectful enough to you not to point out over on the thread announcing your leadership of a new alliance (as worrisome as that is).[/b]"

Very worrisome, those Irish micro-alliances are the most troublesome.

[b]"Also, if we "drove" ADI to apologizing to TDO, as you implied above, then I guess you have helped clarify whether or not their apology was sincere..if it was forced, I'd imagine it wasn't."[/b]

At the time that announcement was made, I was no longer in ADI, so that question is for you to answer.

[b]"I'd advise you to stay clear of this..you're the leader of a new alliance now, and, frankly, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your conduct as ADI's leader. Despite what you may think, your past DOES have great bearing on how you will lead your currect alliance..personally, I think anybody that joins you should know about it."[/b]

I'm not going to repeat what I already stated above. And you are wrong, my past does not have an effect on how I lead my current alliance. My past has an effect on what people think of me, not on how I lead. My principles of leadership are simple: honor your treaties, love your membership, respect your enemies, love your friends, and don't come on the OWF drunk and DoW a bunch of people. As for my members knowing about it, I'm very open, and I have no problem telling them what I achieved at ADI, and what I failed to do. So, all in all, lovely chat.

[mco119]

Tri-I disagree with much of your last post, and, frankly, it's pretty obvious you're not understanding a lot of what is being said. If you don't get some of these things by now, you're not going to. I'm not willing to write another long post trying to clarify it for you. I do find your recollection of what happened regarding the ceasefire..um..interesting, and I'm sure Phillip110 and some of ADI's former government members would echo this. Again, if you'd like IRC logs from a couple of weeks ago to support this statement, I can PM them to you. You're painting a picture of events that may cause you to look better..but it isn't reality. These types of games are, at minimum, a part of how you personally have tarnished ADI's reputation, at least in the eyes of numerous people I have spoken to.


As for your past not being relevant..you are very misguided, my friend. The way you have handled your past is the [i]best[/i] indicator of how you will deal with your future..especially since you seem not to have learned at all from your mistakes. In fact, you deny many of these mistakes entirely in your post above. Again, if you want to know what kind of leader a man will be, look at his track record of leadership.


One more time, let's STOP this. PM me privately if you wish, but let's cease and desist from the OWF debates. I'm as much of a problem here as you, but I'm more than willing to halt these public arguments. We aren't going to agree, and that's fine.

Edited April 20, 2010 by mco119

[Lord Tri]

You want it, you got it.

EDIT: Screen shots and whatnot sent via PM.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Lord Tri

[claphamsa]

this is the gift that keeps giving!

[Captain Enema]

I'm happy enough to announce my disdain of everything ADI if mco wants to stop doing it. Just trying to be helpful and all.