The New Grämlins

[jer]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='12 April 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1271091780' post='2257439']
I know right, who uses passwords anymore?
[/quote]
If you can't answer the question without resorting to obtuse diversions, don't bother. Considering the lack of any denial, I guess that the group does exist. I have no particular love of Ramirus, but what you are doing is school playground stuff at best.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1271093151' post='2257461']
The real pity here is that it's distracting from what a detestable bunch DAWN are,
IRON are beaten and well beaten at that,
DAWN deserve nothing but the contempt and pain due to failed bandwaggoners
[/quote]

Yes. DAWN deserve nothing but death and destruction for fighting for their friends, against odds, and against a huge and much stronger enemy.

For me, bandwaggoners are oppertunistic. They use an excuse for entering a war, with many other people, and usually they know it's already won. If you look back, history will prove me right. Bandwaggoners were always on the winning side of the web. And according to that definition, the term bandwaggoner applies to Grämlins and not to DAWN.

DAWN deserve nothing but respect, they have proven to be a loyal friend, and a good partner in war. You can fight them eternally, but trying to make them look like evil opportunistic bandwaggoners and spin the reality will not work for you.

Aimmée Man, I think he is ironic....

Edited April 12, 2010 by Baden-Württemberg

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Lackistan' date='12 April 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1271093426' post='2257465']
Some might point out the irony of this statement, considering your treaties.

I know, I know your policy, but that sort of precludes you from judging other in terms of bandwaggoning.
[/quote]
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK
When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW

DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting

Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance

Edited April 12, 2010 by SynthFG

[Lackistan]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK
When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW

DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting

Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance
[/quote]

Fortunate, since with statements like "DAWN deserve nothing but the contempt and pain due to failed bandwaggoners", you don't belong in Gramlins. Well, not real Gramlins, this new alliance is clearly very different.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK.

Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance[/quote]

Still an aggressive attack on IRON and no grounds by which to claim that [b][i]we[/i][/b] have aligned ourselves against gRAMlins twice in a row.

Secondly, I for one applaud your decision to leave the alliance. I wish you luck in whatever your new home may be Synth.

Edited April 12, 2010 by The Warrior

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK
When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW

DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting

Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance
[/quote]

This delivers.

Just take a look in the DOW of TSO. That was like on day 3 of the war. According to the posts in there, of Members of MK, the war was already won by them. And we both knew that we will have almost no chance winning this thing. They knew it, we knew it, and if Grämlins kept just 1% of their organization they had a few years back, Grämlins knew it as well.

So when you entered the war, you knew, that the chance for victory is great, and when DAWN entered, they knew, it's in the time of greatest need, and that they are probably going to lose.
That you haven't seen a DAWN representative, doesn't change anything. I assume, as IRON's partner, they'd have accepted what IRON would have accepted (no matter whether surrender agreement or something else) because they have no desire to be always in the very first row.

Now, you can call me ignorant, but I doubt that most of this planet has noticed that you resigned from gRAMlins government. It's, honestly, not that big of an event, and people who haven't realized that, certainly don't live under a rock. While I applaud your decision to leave them, I want to add that you are the best example for my theory, that the alliance will fall. Grämlins used to be famous for their just and reasonable behaviour, and most of the Members they received in the past years, joined because of this recognition.
Of course all these Members resign now, because they love applause and hate criticism.

[shilo]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK
When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW

DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting

Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance
[/quote]
Haha, oh my, I think you are actually thinking this is actually happening

Just to give you information on how it really happened:
-DAWN is part of the initial coalition attacking CnG by posting a joint DOW together with IRON
-DAWN has one single MDoAP, with IRON
-Your repeated, treatyless, aggressive attack against our only MDoAP partner and great friend IRON triggers our defence of IRON against you


No offense, but a treatlyless gRAMlin has no moral authority whatsoever to call a defense of an ally via a treaty bandwagoning, none whatsoever.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='11 April 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1271047650' post='2257090']
If I found myself defeated I shouldn't think I would refuse.
[/quote]
And you would accept unconditional surrender and be perfectly willing to accept WHATEVER peace terms they give you?

[quote name='Mad Mike' date='11 April 2010 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1271048128' post='2257103']
maybe if IRON or DAWN actually came to the gremlins forums and asked the questions that Lord Brendan has they would get the answers they desire. It amazes me that the only person whom even comes to our forums and ask us questions is not even involved. The embassies for IRON have not even been used in over three months on the gremlins forums, the last time anyone posted in the IRON embassy was December 26th 2009. And DAWN does not even have an embassy that i can find on the Gremlins forums. This really shows and showed a lot of initiative to incite peace in this conflict.[/quote]
Hi, meet IRC. That's where stuff gets done.

Oh wait, stuff can't get done because the Ramlins are egomaniacs.
[quote name='Matt Miller' date='12 April 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1271050524' post='2257164'][17:38] <RamirusMaximus|GRE> Tell Peron that it doesn't really matter how many different people he sends over to query me (or who do it on their own).
[17:38] <RamirusMaximus|GRE> I have nothing to say to IRON until you surrender and lay down your arms.[/quote]
Exactly.

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1271093151' post='2257461']The real pity here is that it's distracting from what a detestable bunch DAWN are,
IRON are beaten and well beaten at that,
DAWN deserve nothing but the contempt and pain due to failed bandwaggoners[/quote]
DAWN is bandwagoning, but the Ramlins are not.

1. You can't bandwagon on the losing side. It's contradictory to the definition.
2. DAWN can't bandwagon by being the first to attack.
3. DAWN wouldn't be bandwagoning anyway since they have treaties to the others who went in.
4. Gre does not have treaties to anybody who was attacked.
5. It was obvious the Gre's side would win.

FFS, the Ramlins are by definition bandwagoners while DAWN is by definition not.

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478']
GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK
When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW[/quote]
Uncertain? Yeah.

[quote]DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why
the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting [/quote]
DAWN entered the war before Ramlins did. No, DAWN [i]was[/i] the start of the war.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='11 April 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1271040398' post='2256931']
i am not sure what exactly Gremlins have to recover from? publicly they have their allies/friends backing them up and supporting what they are doing. their allies/friends may not be exactly condoning what they are doing, but have done nothing whatsoever about the situation other than speak words. This amounts to exactly next to nothing in terms of making Gremlins actually listen.
[/quote]

In terms of physicality? You are correct. In terms of PR and what a bunch of people think about them? The opposite is true.

[shilo]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='12 April 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1271100113' post='2257573']
In terms of physicality? You are correct. In terms of PR and what a bunch of people think about them? The opposite is true.
[/quote]
Well, judging by the many irrational posts, seemingly coming from very isolated uniformed people, physicality is all that gRAMlins do understand at this point.

[Bob Janova]

I've got to say, calling DAWN bandwagoners – from someone who's been in government of an alliance which jumped into this war with no treaties whatsoever on the winning side – has to take the biscuit as the most hilariously ironic comment so far.

It's a shame you haven't been able to beat some sense into Ram and have instead had to leave, but I sympathise with that .

Sam, I hope Grämlins is not forgotten, we did lots of worthwhile things. But I hope that you are right about the 2010 edition. I wouldn't want the history of the real Grämlins to be obscured by this.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='12 April 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1271101217' post='2257582']

Sam, I hope Grämlins is not forgotten, we did lots of worthwhile things. But I hope that you are right about the 2010 edition. I wouldn't want the history of the real Grämlins to be obscured by this.
[/quote]

I agree Bob. I was talking about the "new" gRAMlins. The old "edition", with the old faces, won't be forgotten easily, since they fill many impressive pages in all of the history books till the Karma war.

[ironchef]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='12 April 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1271100113' post='2257573']
In terms of physicality? You are correct. In terms of PR and what a bunch of people think about them? The opposite is true.
[/quote]

If some of us have our way physicality will play a big role in what they have to recover form. Alliances can’t join to fight for IRON and DAWN but we can push for the alliances of Bob to stop selling tech to gRAMlins.

There are honorable alliances out there with good tech buying programs like MHA. Sell to them and not gRAMlins. To feed an alliance that has lost every ounce of honor they once had, is the same as supporting them in this sick vendetta driven crusade they are on.

I say it’s time to place a complete tech embargo on gRAMlins. The complete impediment of all tech will say loud the clear The members of Planet Bob will not stand for this sort of thing.

[Iotupa]

[quote name='ironchef' date='12 April 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1271101921' post='2257597']
If some of us have our way physicality will play a big role in what they have to recover form. Alliances can’t join to fight for IRON and DAWN but we can push for the alliances of Bob to stop selling tech to gRAMlins.

There are honorable alliances out there with good tech buying programs like MHA. Sell to them and not gRAMlins. To feed an alliance that has lost every ounce of honor they once had, is the same as supporting them in this sick vendetta driven crusade they are on.

I say it’s time to place a complete tech embargo on gRAMlins. The complete impediment of all tech will say loud the clear The members of Planet Bob will not stand for this sort of thing.
[/quote]

It's been a long time since I agreed with ironchef, but here we are. Something must be done to show that the community does not support such behavior.

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='ironchef' date='12 April 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1271101921' post='2257597']
If some of us have our way physicality will play a big role in what they have to recover form. Alliances can’t join to fight for IRON and DAWN but we can push for the alliances of Bob to stop selling tech to gRAMlins.

There are honorable alliances out there with good tech buying programs like MHA. Sell to them and not gRAMlins. To feed an alliance that has lost every ounce of honor they once had, is the same as supporting them in this sick vendetta driven crusade they are on.

I say it’s time to place a complete tech embargo on gRAMlins. The complete impediment of all tech will say loud the clear The members of Planet Bob will not stand for this sort of thing.
[/quote]

I must say this is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. However, instead of bolstering the statistical might of gRAM's only ally (MHA) it would be prudent to choose other alliances to assist. In fact, the recent peace terms mean that the surrendering parties will need a great deal of tech dealers from whom they may purchase tech on the victor's behalf. I feel it would be more wise to assist TOP and co. in getting their reps paid off quickly.

[Iotupa]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='12 April 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1271102602' post='2257606']
I must say this is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. However, instead of bolstering the statistical might of gRAM's only ally (MHA) it would be prudent to choose other alliances to assist. In fact, the recent peace terms mean that the surrendering parties will need a great deal of tech dealers from whom they may purchase tech on the victor's behalf. I feel it would be more wise to assist TOP and co. in getting their reps paid off quickly.
[/quote]

This is something I signed the GGA up for immediately. I hope others use the same idea.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='12 April 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1271095962' post='2257508']
This delivers.

...

Of course all these Members resign now, because they love applause and hate criticism.
[/quote]

You, sir, are probably the sharpest of the detractors!
What a great point.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='12 April 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1271100099' post='2257572']
And you would accept unconditional surrender and be perfectly willing to accept WHATEVER peace terms they give you?
[/quote]

Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']
Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.
[/quote]

Perhaps, then, you should learn what unconditional surrender is, if the above is how you feel.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='12 April 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1271103007' post='2257614']
Perhaps, then, you should learn what unconditional surrender is, if the above is how you feel.
[/quote]
Perhaps, then, you should check your assumptions at the door.

[peron]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']
Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.
[/quote]

When Unconditional Surrender contains a demilitarizing term before other terms are offered you are left with accepting what is offered or facing utter destruction with your nations demilitarized and out of PM. So no, they aren't two different things.

[DarkEra97]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']
Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.
[/quote]

No, they aren't.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.[/quote]Look, I am familiar with the worst pains known to man, but the headache I get from this is something I really have difficulties dealing with.
Care to explain the difference to us bandwaggoners?

[The Warrior]

[quote]Aeternos Astramora, on 12 April 2010 - 12:21 PM, said:
[b]And you would accept unconditional surrender and be perfectly willing to accept WHATEVER peace terms they give you?[/b][/quote]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']
[b]Of course not[/b], and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things"[/quote]

So let me recap: You would never expect anybody to unconditionally surrender? And you have just stated that you would never accept such a term either?

It appears to me that you sir have just stated that you are casting aside the codex that you continually insist that you follow. If you would not accept this term if given to you, yet you offer the term to us, you are indeed offering a term that you would not accept and therefore break your codex.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1271102902' post='2257612']
Of course not, and I'd never expect anybody else to do so either.
"Unconditionally surrender" and "willing to accept whatever peace terms they give you" are two different, and separable, things.
[/quote]
Then please, tell us what the hell it is. Unconditionally surrendering to everyone else in the world means you completely stop fighting and must follow everything your enemy says.

What does "unconditionally surrender" mean in newspeak?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora