Declaration of Neutrality

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='RiceDoc' date='15 February 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1266217468' post='2182531']
I guess you can't see that 10% of the NCAAbbs nations are supporting your side in the war and that 70% have not entered the war at all? [/quote]

That would be a legitimate outcome to an internal poll. It is not an answer to what you do when nations wearing your AA declare war.

Furthermore what I see is two nations declaring on my people, and one declaring on someone in a one-man death cult. The first is my concern. The second changes nothing.

[quote]You would rather exterminate supporters rather than identify who is with you and who is against you? [/quote]

There is this neat function admin created [i]years[/i] ago to do that, it's called "Alliance Affilliation." There is no need to reïnvent the wheel here, it's not like this situation never came up in the past you know...

[quote]The reality is that you know that the alliance as a whole is neutral, [/quote]

The reality is I know nothing of the sort.

You keep using that word neutral. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Perhaps the one who said earlier this should have been called 'declaration of anarchy' was right.

Are you, RiceDoc, government of this alliance? Are you even a member? I couldnt seem to locate a nation for you...EDIT - nm buggy search somehow, I see your nation now. Still want to know if you have any authority beyond your own nation or not though.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[RiceDoc]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='15 February 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1266218645' post='2182551']
Furthermore what I see is two nations declaring on my people.... Th(at) is my concern.[/quote]

My point exactly! Your concern is with 2 nations, not with a neutral alliance.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='15 February 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1266218645' post='2182551']
There is this neat function admin created [i]years[/i] ago to do that, it's called "Alliance Affilliation." There is no need to reïnvent the wheel here, it's not like this situation never came up in the past you know...[/quote]

Very true. That NCAAbbs AA that you see flying is an indication of a collective of nations which will defend each other. In a normal war, it would mean that they support each other in the war as well. This is no normal war, which is precisely why I started this weird thread - to insure that the strange happenings didn't get misinterpreted.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='15 February 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1266218645' post='2182551']
The reality is I know nothing of the sort.

You keep using that word neutral. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Perhaps the one who said earlier this should have been called 'declaration of anarchy' was right. [/quote]
You have evidence in the form of my statement here and nothing to the contrary. In fact, other than the three nations who have declared war for their own reasons, you have the remainder of the alliance that has not declared at all, which also supports the proposition that the alliance as a whole is neutral. Testimony and action based evidence of neutrality; nothing on the other side of the ledger. What do you base your allegation of any other than neutrality on?

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='15 February 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1266218645' post='2182551']
Are you, RiceDoc, government of this alliance? Are you even a member? I couldnt seem to locate a nation for you...EDIT - nm buggy search somehow, I see your nation now. Still want to know if you have any authority beyond your own nation or not though.
[/quote]

See post 33 above. As far as my nation is concerned, glad you got the search to work for you. For those of you who haven't found it yet or just don't want to do the search but are curious, I've added a link in my signature.

I note someone commented about the UPN in my "About me" section. I missed updating that when I moved out of UPN back to my roots in NCAAbbs. I've updated it now. Thanks for pointing that out.

Hope that clears things up a little! Like everything else in this war, nothing seems very clear.

[Grendel]

Yada, Yada, Yada....insert what ever quasi-legelize you want.

Yes I attacked two nations. Ciníoch Muintir Ruler: Thor VonMayhem of Nordreich and Ganthem Ruler: FinViking of Nordreich. I a ruler of sovereign Beowulf declared war upon these two nations not Nordreich the alliance and I clearly gave my reasons whether you are with them or not when I declared. My declarations made as any sense and most any of the DOW currently out there associated with this war.

My previous alliance knew nothing about these declartations before I left and actually declared them thier did my current alliance know until after the fact.

After delarations were made I attempted diplomatic communications with both nations and one ruler FinViking of Ganthem was the only one to respond. I found him a congenial bloke and let him know why he was attacked. Through a couple of messages we came to a possible compromise and I await his answer [as a side note I did very little damage to either nation in my initial onslot]

Nordreich if your alliance has a problem with what I did why have you not messaged me once to find out why or make your demands to me. Instead you make demands of someone else? Don't know how well that works given the opening statement of this thread. NACCbbs has stated its stance in this quite emphatically so when that avenue broke down would it not have made sense to send at least a simple demand? As you see my post count over here on the CN forum is pretty damn small it should have clued you in that I do not make this my primary means of communicating.

Now is NACCbbs wishes me to leave after my actions they have the right and responsibility to ask me and I will give them an answer but in genreal I do not owe anyone on this forum an answer what so ever. You can just keep spying me to find out. By the way since you guys already spied me yesterday the use of a spy today was a waste

So back to the compromise, basically I stated to FinViking of Ganthem that if he let his war with Olympus expire and not bother Olympus again I would accept peace with him. That is a decision that two sovereign nations have all the right and ability to decide for themselves. Pretty simple FinViking really was not hurt by me and vice a versa.

My goal in this is to give some peace to Purple Nations. It is that simple, if the idiots who came of with the title of "Purple Curbstomp DOW" had done a better and less insulting declaration I would still be sitting with the UPN working on nation building and helping smaller nations work throught the rules. That is what I really like to do. SO YOU WANT ME TO GO AWAY then talk to those idiots. I picked on two nations in my range that was attacking a couple of purple nations I have respect for. I have no real issue with with my target nations because the are Nordreich instead the choice was made for more pragmatic reasons NS.

Now I will check back in to read the inane diatribe to follow that I'm unreasonable or that does not make sense or that is against tradition.....etc. but do not expect me to respond I gave my reasons as the sovereign nation and that is about all you are going to get.

In summary stop making stupid declarations alliances of BOB and you will find you have a lot less of "us" to deal with.

P.S. Magicspoond is sovereign to himself so his reasons are his reasons just as anyone playing this game has the right and responsibility to do.

[Grendel]

[quote name='Grendel' date='15 February 2010 - 07:04 AM' timestamp='1266235460' post='2182785']
Yada, Yada, Yada....insert what ever quasi-legelize you want.

Yes I attacked two nations. Ciníoch Muintir Ruler: Thor VonMayhem of Nordreich and Ganthem Ruler: FinViking of Nordreich. I a ruler of sovereign Beowulf declared war upon these two nations not Nordreich the alliance and I clearly gave my reasons, whether you agree with them or not when I declared. My declarations made as much sense as most any of the DOWs currently out there associated with this war.

My previous alliance knew nothing about these declarations before I left and actually declared them, and neither did my current alliance know until after the fact.

After delarations were made I attempted diplomatic communications with both nations and one ruler FinViking of Ganthem was the only one to respond. I found him a congenial bloke and let him know why he was attacked. Through a couple of messages we came to a possible compromise and I await his answer [as a side note I did very little damage to either nation in my initial onslot]

Nordreich if your alliance has a problem with what I did why have you not messaged me once to find out why or make your demands to me. Instead you make demands of someone else? Don't know how well that works given the opening statement of this thread. NACCbbs has stated its stance in this quite emphatically so when that avenue broke down would it not have made sense to send at least a simple demand? As you see my post count over here on the CN forum is pretty damn small and it should have clued you in that I do not make this my primary means of communicating.

Now if NACCbbs wishes me to leave after my actions they have the right and responsibility to ask me and I will give them an answer but in genreal I do not owe anyone on this forum an answer what so ever. You can just keep spying me to find out. By the way since you guys already spied me yesterday the use of a spy today was a waste

So back to the compromise, basically I stated to FinViking of Ganthem that if he let his war with Olympus expire and not bother Olympus again I would accept peace with him. That is a decision that two sovereign nations have all the right and ability to decide for themselves. Pretty simple FinViking really was not hurt by me and vice a versa.

My goal in this is to give some peace to Purple Nations. It is that simple, if the idiots who came of with the title of "Purple Curbstomp DOW" had done a better and less insulting declaration I would still be sitting with the UPN working on nation building and helping smaller nations work throught the rules. That is what I really like to do. SO YOU WANT ME TO GO AWAY then talk to those idiots. I picked on two nations in my range that was attacking a couple of purple nations I have respect for. I have no real issue with with my target nations because they are Nordreich instead the choice was made for more pragmatic reasons NS. Leave Olympus alone and I'll send peace messages, sound simple?

Now I will check back in to read the inane diatribe to follow that I'm unreasonable or that does not make sense or that is against tradition.....etc. but do not expect me to respond I gave my reasons as the sovereign nation and that is about all you are going to get.

In summary stop making stupid declarations alliances of BOB and you will find you have a lot less of "us" to deal with.

P.S. Magicspoond is sovereign to himself so his reasons are his reasons just as anyone playing this game has the right and responsibility to do.
[/quote]

Sorry for the double post I can not see the quote/edit buttons and this is how it came up when I tried to fix some typos/poor sentence structure.

Note to mods I liked the looks of the old forum better this one.

[SirBombAlot]

Wow, this is.... interesting.

[Haflinger]

The OP is ... really weird.

While I of course appreciate the support one of your members has shown for our cause (citing Invicta in his DoW), it seems to me that it would be much better for him to join our alliance for the duration of the war, if your alliance wishes to stay out of the war.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='RePePe' date='15 February 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1266216030' post='2182497']
You seem to be keen on United States examples. Now I'm totally neutral in this whole argument but let me present this:

Suppose just the state of New York declared war on, and attacked, Canada. Would the U.S. sit back and do nothing, claiming neutrality? Would the U.S. expect Canada to only counter on New York alone and take no action against the country as a whole? And would the U.S. sit back and let New York be wiped off the map?

The answers and symbolism in this example are crystal clear.
[/quote]

I do not believe [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=350226"]the United States[/url] is strong enough to attack [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=132548"]Canada[/url].

[Grendel]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='15 February 2010 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1266238460' post='2182831']
The OP is ... really weird.

While I of course appreciate the support one of your members has shown for our cause (citing Invicta in his DoW), it seems to me that it would be much better for him to join our alliance for the duration of the war, if your alliance wishes to stay out of the war.
[/quote]

That would be Magicspoon for those too lazy to look it up themselves.

[Freelancer]

[quote name='wickedj' date='14 February 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1266208061' post='2182166']

Dont you need a DoE before you can DoN?
[/quote]

The answer is quite simple, education, there upbringing is all over this thread, the lack of parenting skills by the aforementioned is nothing new, why are you surprised ? I'm not.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Grendel' date='15 February 2010 - 07:04 AM' timestamp='1266235460' post='2182785']
Yes I attacked two nations. Ciníoch Muintir Ruler: Thor VonMayhem of Nordreich and Ganthem Ruler: FinViking of Nordreich. I a ruler of sovereign Beowulf declared war upon these two nations not Nordreich the alliance....[/quote]

One would expect an 804-day-old nation to understand that this is not the way the world works.

Nice try, though.

[Grendel]

Funny thing is, I see nothing in the "rules" that counter what I stated.
Now if your alliance wants to beat up on me the so be it. As you stated I'm not a new nation and I am fully capable of making my own decisions just like any other player in this game.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Grendel

[Freelancer]

[quote name='Grendel' date='15 February 2010 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1266246179' post='2182970']
Funny thing is, I see nothing in the "rules" that counter what I stated.
Now if your alliance wants to beat up on me the so be it. As you stated I'm not a new nation and I am fully capable of making my own decisions just like any other player in this game.
[/quote]

Very True, as one of those individuals though, I would recommend reading [URL=http://forums.cybhttp://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68466ernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68466]these[/URL], never bothered me, however we do have a few investigative reporters who will jump like a pack of wolves at this one.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Grendel' date='15 February 2010 - 10:02 AM' timestamp='1266246179' post='2182970']
Funny thing is, I see nothing in the "rules" that counter what I stated.
Now if your alliance wants to beat up on me the so be it. As you stated I'm not a new nation and I am fully capable of making my own decisions just like any other player in this game.
[/quote]
If you're going to respond, at least address points I'm making and not some imaginary argument in your head.

There are no rules, and I never asserted that any existed. There are, however, [i]conventions[/i]. You've broken one. Your apparent 'exit strategy' is neither new nor original. It is as old as Bob itself, and it has failed utterly every time it has been tried.

You are free to make whatever stupid decisions you like. (No one has asserted otherwise except, perhaps, that voice in your head.) This includes the right to get defensive when someone points out that you've made a stupid decision.

But 'Player'? 'Game'? I'm sorry, friend, but I've no idea what you're talking about.

[TECUMSEH]

I have nothing but good wishes for RiceDoc and Grendel as they were valued members of my alliance. I'm not exactly sure where this path will take you. I do know that you're both following what you believe to be right. You have my respect.

[Locke]

[quote name='SF Austin' date='15 February 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1266214922' post='2182459']
All I can see is 20% of a alliance called NCAAbbs has decided it is worth their wild to attack Nordreich, It is then in my best interest to eliminate 100% of NCAAbbs to prevent further attacks. If you wish your friends no harm you have 22 hours to remove yourselfs from the NCAAbbs Alliance Affiliation.
[/quote]
Ooooor you could just do whatever you want to the 20% that attacked you, seeing as how NCAAbbs has claimed no responsibility for their actions, neither have they sent anyone in their defense. Hell, PZI them if you're so inclined, but it's clear that NCAAbbs is going by a different set of rules than most alliances, and it's not that hard to see it. Trying to apply the same rules to them...well, you do it if you want, but it's rather silly. RiceDoc would give you no trouble for attacking Grendel, someone who is a legimate threat to you.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Locke' date='15 February 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1266250283' post='2183029']
Ooooor you could just do whatever you want to the 20% that attacked you, seeing as how NCAAbbs has claimed no responsibility for their actions, neither have they sent anyone in their defense. Hell, PZI them if you're so inclined, but it's clear that NCAAbbs is going by a different set of rules than most alliances, and it's not that hard to see it. Trying to apply the same rules to them...well, you do it if you want, but it's rather silly. RiceDoc would give you no trouble for attacking Grendel, someone who is a legimate threat to you.
[/quote]

Sorry Locke, but this logic goes out the window during war when you can't logically trust someone whose AA members declared on you.

Heck, MASH tried to convince us the nations that attacked early were merely rogues before their real DoW, I'm not faulting them for strategy but saying that Nordreich is doing what they feel sufficiently eliminates the threat and if this NCAAbbs alliance can't control their membership that is their fault and they put themselves at risk because of that.

Nordreich gave them a means of not being punished for their membership's actions it appears, but that route was not taken.

Unfortunately, all conventional means of handling these situations go out the window during war time, had this been a peace time attack I can understand the need for diplomacy and only handling the nations which declared.

[Bob Janova]

This is a hilariously poor approach to wars.

[Grendel]

[quote name='Locke' date='15 February 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1266250283' post='2183029']
Ooooor you could just do whatever you want to the 20% that attacked you, seeing as how NCAAbbs has claimed no responsibility for their actions, neither have they sent anyone in their defense. Hell, PZI them if you're so inclined, but it's clear that NCAAbbs is going by a different set of rules than most alliances, and it's not that hard to see it. Trying to apply the same rules to them...well, you do it if you want, but it's rather silly. RiceDoc would give you no trouble for attacking Grendel, someone who is a legimate threat to you.
[/quote]

Very astute

[RiceDoc]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='15 February 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1266253779' post='2183107']
Unfortunately, all conventional means of handling these situations go out the window during war time, had this been a peace time attack I can understand the need for diplomacy and only handling the nations which declared.
[/quote]

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Because there is a war going on in which the NCAAbbs has expressly declared itself NEUTRAL, the normal channels of diplomacy between alliances who are NOT at war with each other should be ignored? Where do you draw the line on when to consider diplomacy and when to consider every action as an act of war? It was because there is a war going on that this war brought to this board. That shouldn't prevent a diplomatic solution if there is one. Certainly it shouldn't cut off diplomatic conversations. But I guess you can't be bothered with proper decorum since the is a war going on somewhere on planet BOB.

BTW, in the ongoing debate within NCAAbbs on how to respond, there are essentially three camps: (a) One camp says with an attitude like SF Austin has shown, he deserves to get the fight he so desperately wants his comrades to fight (he is is hippie mode himself, so he can't be hit - easy to talk big when you hide in hippie mode, isn't it) and (b) the other camp says ask the nations who are fighting to leave at least temporarily. There is no clear majority at this point, so the discussions are on-going. When there is a resolution, I'll let you know.

[Locke]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='15 February 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1266253779' post='2183107']
Sorry Locke, but this logic goes out the window during war when you can't logically trust someone whose AA members declared on you.

Heck, MASH tried to convince us the nations that attacked early were merely rogues before their real DoW, I'm not faulting them for strategy but saying that Nordreich is doing what they feel sufficiently eliminates the threat and if this NCAAbbs alliance can't control their membership that is their fault and they put themselves at risk because of that.

Nordreich gave them a means of not being punished for their membership's actions it appears, but that route was not taken.

Unfortunately, all conventional means of handling these situations go out the window during war time, had this been a peace time attack I can understand the need for diplomacy and only handling the nations which declared.
[/quote]
Well, call me weird, but I like being logical and diplomatic all the time, regardless of the state of war.

[neneko]

There are no absolute rules how an alliance should act but if you refuse to go about things the same way others do then don't expect any special treatment. NCAAbbs doesn't see themselves as part of the war apparently so I assume they will not be present at any peace negotiations. That means your nations that's currently engaged in the war might have a very long fight ahead.

The simplest solution here would be to treat these people as you treat any nuclear rogue. If NCAAbbs won't give them any support as a whole and their actions are not sanctioned by the alliance then just sanction the nuclear rogue and keep him in war for however long you deem necessary.

As a footnote the reason people claim you're not really an alliance lies in the very definition you quoted earlier RiceDoc. Nations within the alliance go to war together. If one nation within the alliance is in a state of war with another alliance the nation either gets support or gets expelled. An attack on one nation in an alliance is seen as a attack on all just as one attack from a nation is seen as a attack from the alliance as a whole unless steps are taken to rectify the situation. Your attitude that the nations under your banner can do whatever they want and people attacked by them can do whatever they want with those nations would imply you are not in fact allied to eachother.

e:
[quote name='Whitney' date='15 February 2010 - 06:16 AM' timestamp='1266210973' post='2182287']
Still more of an alliance than Rebel Virginia's FAIL.
[/quote]
Way to set the bar low.

Edited February 15, 2010 by neneko

[Grendel]

Just as a note no nukes have flown yet so if you are considering me a rogue it would make sense to call me a just a "rogue" not a nuclear rogue. A small point but there are very important distinction between the two. Actually if I want to throw nukes I can [time has elapsed] but have refrained as my negotations with at least one nation are on going if not already settled.

[Magicspoon]

As one of the nations currently flying the NCAAbbs alliance affiliation who is currently engagaed with Nordreich I would be more than happy to drop my current AA, if it will save a curb stomp on the other members. I have actively made my decision to fight against those who are currently opportunistically assulting the purple sphere and therefore will gladly take what ever punishments are handed down to me. I have only been flying the AA for 1 day and have no forum access so should not being considered a legitimate member of NCAAbbs.

I will not be part of any alliance wide peace talks and will gladly peace out and take my punishment once the last purple alliance has been given peace. To all combatants involved best of luck in this crazy conflict I wish you all well and I hope there are no hard feelings.

[Gofastleft]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='15 February 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1266254016' post='2183109']
This is a hilariously poor approach to wars.
[/quote]

NCAAbbs, doing it wrong since GWIII

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='RiceDoc' date='15 February 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1266255267' post='2183129']
BTW, in the ongoing debate within NCAAbbs on how to respond, there are essentially three camps: (a) One camp says with an attitude like SF Austin has shown, he deserves to get the fight he so desperately wants his comrades to fight (he is is hippie mode himself, so he can't be hit - easy to talk big when you hide in hippie mode, isn't it) and (b) the other camp says ask the nations who are fighting to leave at least temporarily. There is no clear majority at this point, so the discussions are on-going. When there is a resolution, I'll let you know.
[/quote]

Oh peace-mode insults I missed you so....are you going to brag about your casualties next?

I'm absolutely certain that the commander of Nordreich's military is in peace mode owing to his fear of you, and not so that he can recover from two weeks of non-stop nuclear warfare with multiple opponents.

Regardless, you seem to think that NCAAbbs gets to decide how this ends. That's adorable.

One would expect an 'alliance' containing so many older nations to make much fewer incredibly stupid statements and decisions. Does your alliance use lead plumbing in its water fountains? I'd look into that.