Two different wars

[Baden-Württemberg]

I think you will agree with me, that we'll never agree on this one.

[WarriorConcept]

There is no way in hell the INITIAL polar declaration was all part of an elaborate "trap" to get at TOP/IRON, and it is idiotic to think so. However, I do believe that Archon saw TOP/IRON committing a huge (and incredibly ironic considering how they entered into GWII - old TOP members will know what I'm talking about) blunder, and took advantage of the opportunity at hand.

This is what most likely happened, though I don't think Archon was the only one involved on that final decision.

[Branimir]

This is what most likely happened, though I don't think Archon was the only one involved on that final decision.

Agreed, as well. I think that is a prevailing opinion.

And no Archon wasn't the only one on it, nor only important player here. I think it was a great move, from that side which is represented in him often. I though, have another opinion about how great of a move it was, for some other players which just had to have an idea what was going down and why and yet let it happen without a warning to people that wanted to support him, if not even agreeing on it openly and in that spirit made that quickly made up, irc logs consisting, joke of a peace terms. Namely, Grub.

Edit: I dunno why I was being so vague, lol

Edited January 31, 2010 by Branimir

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

I see it as the same war, with the war between NpO and \m/ as a feint to get TOP/IRON engaged and the go all Hulk Smash on them

If they took the time to plan that out, don't you think they'd at least save enough allies to make sure they weren't completely outnumbered?

[Jared]

If they took the time to plan that out, don't you think they'd at least save enough allies to make sure they weren't completely outnumbered?

They desire cheap infra, am I right or am I right

[Sephiroth]

I'm beginning to wonder about these people saying they are two separate wars, beginning to believe your own BS or is it just being repeated to distract people?

[greatmagnus]

Technically yes, there are two separate wars. One was resolved, the other is just getting started. In actuality however, there is really only one. I think this could only be considered a separate war if TOP/IRON would have done it without the Polar/\m/ stuff going on. Since we all know that TOP/IRON would never have tried it out of the blue, this one goes down in the books as one war.

[Janosik]

[quote name='Jerichoholic' date='29 January 2010 - 03:12 AM' timestamp='1264756340' post='2140678']
Isn't that a bit like Japan, of Old Earth, attacking the United States during their second World War? We all know how that war ended.
[/quote]
And Japan nuked America for several years? I'd say it's more like Russia declaring war on Afghanistan, and suddenly all the 'stans jump up too.

How about we stick to RP.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Baldr' date='30 January 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1264894203' post='2145849']
Wow. 8 days. 8 whole days. That's supposed to impress people?

You talk about "enough rounds" but that's one round, plus new declarations which would start another round. It's barely longer than a tech raid. It's not impressive at all.
[/quote]
Oh man you sure told us.

It's not supposed to be impressive. We weren't just going to get pushed around for a day and then peace out though. I don't know how long you wanted us to fight, but when the peace terms are "Just say that you will follow your own charter" I think that's a really good deal for a duel of one round, and then get out of there. Wisely, our allies and their allies did the same because there was no reason to keep fighting.

If Polar wanted to keep the war longer, they would have. If PC wanted to, they would have. If FOK wanted to, they would have. You seem to forget that 4 parties agreed to the 8 days of war.

Polaris as a result of PC, \m/, and FOK lost around 2 million of their NS in those 8 days. Eh, whatever.

[Godwin]

[quote name='Earogema' date='30 January 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1264913377' post='2146608']Polaris as a result of PC, \m/, and FOK lost around 2 million of their NS in those 8 days. Eh, whatever.
[/quote]

Totally worth it, imo. That's a whole, what, 8 score? Good stuff!

[Jerichoholic]

[quote name='Janosik' date='30 January 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1264912201' post='2146551']
And Japan nuked America for several years? I'd say it's more like Russia declaring war on Afghanistan, and suddenly all the 'stans jump up too.

How about we stick to RP.
[/quote]
No, it's closer to Japan of OE attacking the United States. Japan wanted to neutralize the US before it could counter attack. It was very paranoid about the US declaring war on Japan and interfering with its aims in the Pacific. It wanted to get the tactical advantage by launching a surprise attack on a nation not militarily engaged in the conflict and because of its paranoia helped bring about its own destruction that much quicker. Sound familiar?

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Earth

[avernite]

[quote name='Jerichoholic' date='31 January 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1264941756' post='2147417']
No, it's closer to Japan of OE attacking the United States. Japan wanted to neutralize the US before it could counter attack. It was very paranoid about the US declaring war on Japan and interfering with its aims in the Pacific. It wanted to get the tactical advantage by launching a surprise attack on a nation not militarily engaged in the conflict and because of its paranoia helped bring about its own destruction that much quicker. Sound familiar?

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Earth
[/quote]

Actually... Japan was pretty much justified in that decision too once you assume their war in China was ok, the USA were going to intervene against Japan at some point. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you, it just changes the time when you fight (and usually brings it forward).

[Jerichoholic]

[quote name='avernite' date='31 January 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1264942227' post='2147422']
Actually... Japan was pretty much justified in that decision too once you assume their war in China was ok, the USA were going to intervene against Japan at some point. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you, it just changes the time when you fight (and usually brings it forward).
[/quote]If they didn't want the US to intervene, they shouldn't have been committing some of the worst atrocities in Old Earth's history. Besides, the USA had long abandoned any plan to blitz across the Pacific (which was seen during their "World War II" when they concentrated on Europe first).

None of this changes the fact that, like TOP/IRON/etc's unprovoked attack on CnG, both actions were massive blunders which ended in the complete conquest of the attacker. We'll see how this goes here on Bob, but it's not looking good.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Jerichoholic' date='31 January 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1264892151' post='2145782']
Maybe you haven't heard the news, but Superkarmagrievances is the new Hegemony.
[/quote]
Well, not to rain on your parade, but once the current beat-down is concluded, what then? Perhaps a sort of [i]Pax SuperGrievances[/i] will result? Or will we be treated to a further unravelling of the treaty web? I'm hoping for the latter, to be honest

[Jerichoholic]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='31 January 2010 - 08:16 AM' timestamp='1264943802' post='2147445']
Well, not to rain on your parade, but once the current beat-down is concluded, what then? Perhaps a sort of [i]Pax SuperGrievances[/i] will result? Or will we be treated to a further unravelling of the treaty web? I'm hoping for the latter, to be honest
[/quote]
I hope I don't get in trouble for letting the cat out of the bag, but...

Didn't you get the memo? Once TOP, IRON, etc are out of the way (because we obviously want everybody we have disagreements with to leave the game, just like that faked Hoo log said!) all nations will be required to move to aqua and fly our singular AA (Karma, because it's an alliance and wasn't just a temporary war coalition!) under threat of EZI. It's a great plan, no?

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Jerichoholic' date='31 January 2010 - 12:42 PM' timestamp='1264941756' post='2147417']
No, it's closer to Japan of OE attacking the United States. Japan wanted to neutralize the US before it could counter attack. It was very paranoid about the US declaring war on Japan and interfering with its aims in the Pacific. It wanted to get the tactical advantage by launching a surprise attack on a nation not militarily engaged in the conflict and because of its paranoia helped bring about its own destruction that much quicker. Sound familiar?

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Earth
[/quote]


Except Japan was completelly justified because the USA enacted an Oil and Iron embargo (if memory serves me right) on Japan due to their participation in the war. In CN, it'd be the same as using Trade sanctions on someone fighting a war you had nothing to do with.

For some reason, I suspect we'd see Hoo on these forums DoWing whoever did it on Ragnarok

[Jerichoholic]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='31 January 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1264944886' post='2147466']
Except Japan was completelly justified because the USA enacted an Oil and Iron embargo (if memory serves me right) on Japan due to their participation in the war. In CN, it'd be the same as using Trade sanctions on someone fighting a war you had nothing to do with.

For some reason, I suspect we'd see Hoo on these forums DoWing whoever did it on Ragnarok
[/quote]
They stopped selling oil to the Japanese, they didn't create a blockade to prevent anybody else from doing so (which is what a trade sanction would do).

Besides, what initiated all of this was Japan committing genocide and conquering all its neighbors. It wasn't just sitting there peacefully.

It's not perfectly analogous to this situation (I'm not aware of TOP or IRON forcing anybody out of the game), but there are some striking parallels (attacking an uninvolved nation due to paranoia, which ultimately brings about the one thing you were trying to prevent: your destruction).

Edited January 31, 2010 by Jerichoholic

[Lusitan]

The motives behind USA trade embargo are irrelevant. If they wanted to be neutral, they shouldn't have embargoed. By taking a position that would be advantageous to their allies (their allies renders the neutrality immediatelly null) they took a side, and they subjected themselves to be attacked by taking the same side.

[Jerichoholic]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='31 January 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1264947399' post='2147499']
The motives behind USA trade embargo are irrelevant. If they wanted to be neutral, they shouldn't have embargoed. By taking a position that would be advantageous to their allies (their allies renders the neutrality immediatelly null) they took a side, and they subjected themselves to be attacked by taking the same side.
[/quote]
The USA not trading with Japan isn't any more of a reason to attack than our two nations not trading.

[Instr]

*THIS POST DOES NOT REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF ANY C&G ALLIANCE OR ALLIANCE GOVERNMENT. INSTR IS AN ALLIANCE GRUNT WHO PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS AN ALLIANCE TECH BUYER BUT OTHERWISE HAS POSSESSED NO PORTFOLIO*

So, by your logic, sanctions placed on North Korea and Iran justify their nuclear program and general belligerence towards US allies?

If the conspiracy theories are correct, TOP was tricked into attacking into an unfavorable war. If anyone is at fault here, to begin with, TOP declared outside the normal rules of war. I personally don't believe in any rules of war, but the Cyber Nations community does and attacking without a legitimate casus belli is a major faux pas. TOP must have thought they could have gotten away with it, in the way many other alliances have managed to get away with falsified casus belli, in the sense that they could dictate the rules of the game after winning the war and then declare themselves the winner. Then there is the matter of Polar, who, according to TOP, gave them the idea of executing an illegal war. Polar bears some of the blame for instigating TOP's crime, but in the end, it was TOP who accepted the concept and started an illegal war.

Regarding Bob Janova's desire to see this war's end, TOP has shown itself to be a security threat to Complaints and Grievances in a way that Complaints and Grievances has not shown TOP. We are the victims of unjustified aggression by a major world power, which, we have seen, is severely paranoid. Mushroom Kingdom may joke amongst ourselves about rolling all the alliances we don't get along with, but we are not the ones who tried to "roll" TOP. TOP is trying to roll us.

[skokie]

I have to say, i am sorry dear TOP/IRON but you are at a political disadvantage, you and all you friends raise really good hypothetical points, you try hard to compare your situation to Japan (nice try but... NO) and to other historical events in CN, but unless you can present a screen shot or a hard piece of evidence which suggests that C&G was going to attack you, you are at a disadvantage and you are the offensive player. It's rather simple.

[Godwin]

[quote name='skokie' date='31 January 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1264956433' post='2147742']
I have to say, i am sorry dear TOP/IRON but you are at a political disadvantage, you and all you friends raise really good hypothetical points, you try hard to compare your situation to Japan (nice try but... NO) and to other historical events in CN, but unless you can present a screen shot or a hard piece of evidence which suggests that C&G was going to attack you, you are at a disadvantage and you are the offensive player. It's rather simple.
[/quote]

Pretty much this. Completely unwarranted attacks get people in this world upset, for whatever reason.

[iamwalrus]

[quote name='Urmom(U)' date='29 January 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1264752518' post='2140476']
we were attacking people who we knew would eventually enter the war, and attacking them before they could declare so that we would have the upper hand. [/quote]

This is what the Japanese thought they were doing when they bombed Pearl Harbor, but the reality of the situation is that even though The Government leaders were behind it, the people did not want to enter a war. Seems you may have awoken a sleeping Giant.

*edit* I only read the first thread. After reading the post above me it seems that others have made this analogy.

Edited January 31, 2010 by iamwalrus

[Shafer]

It can't even be said whether this is just a second front. If you want to call it the same war then do so, but it is a third side. We don't know who NpO supports, it is possible they support their allies in MK. If that is the case then TOP/IRON are a third force, not part of NpO's coalition, and thus not a second front.

[Toraoji]

i can understand how the C&G side can feel that this is a separate war, but the chain of event indicates that it really isn't. TOP and IRON attacked C&G by orders of the coalition leadership, which included Grub.

Claiming treaty ties between C&G and NpO doesn't change the fact that TOP and IRON attacked as part of the NpO-\m/ war, and that Grub and NpO signed off on the idea before it happened.

edit: note that i'm not claiming that the choice to attack C&G wasn't a searious head scratcher. It seemed dubious at the time, and even more so now. But the questions wasn't if they were right, just if this was 1 war or 2, and the involvement of NpO in the decision as described above clearly indicates that this is 1 war in my mind.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Toraoji