Never-before-heard Grämlins tell-all itt

[Lord Brendan]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

[OOC]I don't care enough to look it up but I imagine it says somewhere that by uploading the flag into the game it becomes the property of admin.[/OOC]

[Franklin]

Well best of luck, that's an interesting choice

[Ertyy]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

It's a little late for that.

Edit: Also, don't you have a war to prosecute?

Edited January 18, 2010 by Ertyy

[der_ko]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

Petty much?

[SpiderJerusalem]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

That is so cute

[Azrael Alexander]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

Really inferno?

[wickedj]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

u mad?

@Scutter, you call Gre out for doing certian things yet MHA isnt as clean cut as you try to make them seem. recall our conversation last summer regarding IRON's release from surrender? then our subsequent discussion on a little article in your newsletter? Yeah that was a pretty shady thing to do. if what someone else said in this thread about not telling Gre about your eternal MDP to NPO is true then this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.. and besides you're wearing an ADI sig, i should mock you just for that

[tobbogon]

lolADI

And Inferno, you made that sig for us, and gave it to us, essentially. Sorry bro, we're keeping it ;p

[han fei zi]

I think that's too much Inferno but fine, I'll pass a motion to go flagless as well.

[apriland]

NPO could learn a lesson here about how to cancel a treaty with no cancellation clause.

Ahaha, The cancellation of the OoO made me more upset that I can possibly express, so I am glad you get this. I want to propose, however, to you and everyone else that The Harmlins Accord is more than a treaty, therefore we did cancel all our treaties. How's that for e-lawyering?? XD

The way I see this is that Graemlins has just surrendered its foreign policy sovereignty to MHA. MHA still maintains treaties, but Graemlins does not, so informal decisions by Graemlins are superseded by the treaties binding MHA and binding Graemlins to MHA.

So as of this moment:

Mushroom Kingdom

Argent

Umbrella

Fark

FOK

Of these few,

Umbrella is bound via MDP with MHA. Fark has a MDoAP with MHA. Argent, FOK, and Mushroom Kingdom no longer have any ties to Graemlins. The previous treaty cancellation with TOP is covered by an MDoAP with MHA.

So the way I see it, it's a stealth downgrading of Graemlins' ties to Mushroom Kingdom, Argent, and FOK.

This post is so silly on so many levels I can't possibly describe. First it severely underestimates the equal and trusting relationship we have with MHA, which is completely founded on very good reasons. Secondly, of all the alliances we were allied too, I would be surprised if I was the only one who thinks that MK "gets" us the best of any of them. And rar, okay, I'm stopping there before I get anymore frustrated.

wait, you *still* discuss in this endless circle? I mean, that same discussion went for like 3 years in Citadel... I am proud you still try to convince people that offering unconditional protection for an aggressor is wrong, regardless how much "friendship" or "treaties" exist (in fact that was the main reason why thugs like GOONS, \m/ or megalomaniacs like Bilrow and his LoLGGA could do their !@#$%^&* for so long, NPOs power just kept them alive and made any resistance pointless), but I also believe it's complete and utter waste of time.

Oh Syz, I have long respected your ability to speak cogent truths to the infants and animals you find around you. You are a huge part of the reason why I knew the Gremlins was my true home long before I ever joined the alliance. You of all people should know that even if no one will ever listen to what you have to say, it's still the right thing to say them and hope they'll hear this time.

By the way, the fact that I can tell that you love that we're doing this makes me more confident we're back on the right track toward being our true self as an alliance, as much as I can't shake that teensy voice in my head that thinks "omg omg omg we're craaaazy".

What I think is the most interesting about this decision is that Grämlins has always played, in my head, the "voice of moral reason" in the midst of ridiculous conflicts on Planet Bob. Our history of integrity should give our true friends confidence in the type of friend we are, and the fact that we will be there for them when they need us. I've only been here for about a third of my time on Planet Bob, but my respect goes way back to them being the only voices I knew I could really listen to during the events leading up to the sham of a war on the GPA. It's membership has always been vocally independent, free to express what it thinks on the forums internally and externally, save a terrible stint in Q where they became more confined because the Grämlins became allied to people who didn't get what they were. Their opinions were always reasoned, both in terms of being logical and tempered from extreme propagandaesque speech. The people have changed, as all alliances have turnover over the years, but just like the GPA is still the GPA for all their crazy neutralness when nearly no one is the same, the same is true of Grämlins, and the standards of justice, reason, and independence that we have always stood for.

Planet Bob, we hold to honorable set of tenets we have set, called the codex, which governs the way we interact with Planet Bob. Most of you have seen it before, but I'd encourage you to look at it again here for a refresher since it's now really the only thing you need to know about us. I think you will like what you find in the coming months when we are truly able to live it out without any constraints.

Edited January 19, 2010 by apriland

[Mustakrakish II]

FAN did already. I'm not impressed.

But on a more serious note, I'm sure you'll actually be fine. Good luck you guys

[crushtania]

Yeeeeeouch. Good luck, my brothers. Good luck indeed.

[lebubu]

This post is so silly on so many levels I can't possibly describe. First it severely underestimates the equal and trusting relationship we have with MHA, which is completely founded on very good reasons. Secondly, of all the alliances we were allied too, I would be surprised if I was the only one who thinks that MK "gets" us the best of any of them. And rar, okay, I'm stopping there before I get anymore frustrated.

Don't worry, it's Inst, our resident paranoid.

[erikz]

I made that awesome Flag i dont like you use it.

Then I suppose you are going to force admin to delete it from the in-game flag list also?

Edited January 19, 2010 by erikz

[Saber]

I must state that these are my opinions, and may not be official view of TOP.

You would "defend" an ally by jumping into an admittedly offensive war? Really?

I wouldn't jump in an offensive war. See, I see it like this.

Alliance X (our ally) declares on Alliance Y (their enemy). - Offensive war by our ally

Unrelated alliances declare on Alliance X saying they are defending Alliance Y - This I see as offensive war by Alliance Y because they have no legal casus belli (reason for war) against Alliance X.

I would support declarations in defense of Alliance X because unrelated alliances hit them without a CB, even if unrelated alliances claim they attacked because Alliance X attacked Alliance Y.

It's quite simple. If you play Europa Universalis series this concept is relatively simple to observe. It's way wars in real world worked as well.

Now, I understand that you disagree with this view, and you can do that. However don't expect whole world sees that as you do (I know many people don't). Also your view is essentially that any alliance can defend any alliance against aggression and still stay defensive. It's great for moral crusaders who want to claim higher ground, but for alliances that aim to follow some kind of politics and FA legalities it's just annoying.

That's great, I have no problem with that. But it doesnt magically transform an aggressive war into a defensive one.

I do not think it's friends>infra (although we would follow that rule), but that it just means they were two separate wars, because they have no legal connection.

If for example unrelated alliances were actually related. Let's say they had MDP treaty with Alliance Y, then their declarations of defence would be legal and I would recognize them (and see Alliance X, our ally, as still in an offensive war against Alliance Y and their allies). No response would then be granted to our ally.

right > wrong

Say a nation who is a friend of mine uses his beer and automobiles irresponsibly, goes off his asphalt and damages another unrelated nation; I will work to help my friend avoid cruelty but not punishment.

In fact, a friend with that problem needs punishment to help amend his ways.

Using these kind of methaphors is just stupid. Seriously. Equalling RL person to person relations to CN alliance politics is stupid and shows you have complete lack of understanding of politics and geopolitics (what this game essentially is).

Btw, my point is exactly what you said. I would help my friend avoid cruelty but not punishment. Cruelty would be unlawlful ganging and lynching of him. Punishment would be going through proper law channels. Getting sued/going to prison/getting a bad rep.

In CN there is no ultimate authority so there is no such thing as prison, but there is something that can be called karma (not entity known as Karma). If you go and raid smaller unalligned alliances you will get such a bad rep that eventually someone will raid you and bring you down. But I don't believe anyone has right to claim they are doing it in defense.

[Inferno]

lolADI

And Inferno, you made that sig for us, and gave it to us, essentially. Sorry bro, we're keeping it ;p

Well Toobs my friend I like when you use it,

but erty...

And never is late.

Edit: typo

Edited January 19, 2010 by Inferno

[Inferno]

I think that's too much Inferno but fine, I'll pass a motion to go flagless as well.

Hey Hello Han ZI how you been my friend!!

What is too much?

I dont like erty use the flag i made. Where is the wrong there?

[Zangmonkey]

Using these kind of methaphors is just stupid. Seriously. Equalling RL person to person relations to CN alliance politics is stupid and shows you have complete lack of understanding of politics and geopolitics (what this game essentially is).

Btw, my point is exactly what you said. I would help my friend avoid cruelty but not punishment. Cruelty would be unlawlful ganging and lynching of him. Punishment would be going through proper law channels. Getting sued/going to prison/getting a bad rep.

In CN there is no ultimate authority so there is no such thing as prison, but there is something that can be called karma (not entity known as Karma). If you go and raid smaller unalligned alliances you will get such a bad rep that eventually someone will raid you and bring you down. But I don't believe anyone has right to claim they are doing it in defense.

My attempt at wit was lost, apparently. I was using bonus resources as a rouse to outline a scenario in which one person creates a problem solely by their own poor judgement.

The cyberverse is not geopolitics in the same sense that RL is, and it never will be. Not ever.

To paraphrase Syz:

You may say that we can follow absolutes and harsh politics because there are no real consequences here.

I say that we can be morally driven and try to do what's "right" in the political sphere because we have nothing to lose.

The ultimate authority in CN is the military-backed will of all other players.

Eventually we'll be judged by how they view the paths we take.

Tell me, Saber, how do you think your rep compares to mine? to others?

In CN punishment is more often than not temporary military action or a negotiated restitution. There are no prisons here because there would soon be no players.

Sometimes even my friends (and even myself) will need to lose some infra to see the error of their ways.

We can rebuild them, we have the technology.

How else can we teach them? The cyberverse offers few other avenues.

[han fei zi]

Hey Hello Han ZI how you been my friend!!

What is too much?

I dont like erty use the flag i made. Where is the wrong there?

Hola Inferno!

You already left, that is sad enough, now you want to get some of the things you left?

[Inferno]

Hola Inferno!

You already left, that is sad enough, now you want to get some of the things you left?

Not really.

I just DONT LIKE some of the guys, who didnt deserve it,

are wearing what i made with deep love for the trully migthy Grämlins.

What I feel like some kind of rape at least...

Some people have no dignity at all...

PD: NOt you han fei zi NOT you... <edited just in case

Edited January 20, 2010 by Inferno