Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[AirMe]

You never backed us.........is this a new thing?

Don't start this crap again.

[Bob Janova]

Hard to get into it in an OOC forum, but it does look like Rishnokof cheated (hence the deletion) and spied. There is nothing to suggest that anyone else or his alliance were involved in that.

[ccabal86]

Well well, I guess this teaches us we need to take Neo-Karma propaganda with a "grain of salt", and that's putting it !@#$@#$ lightly.

But that's OK, I'm a huge fan of hipocracy and double standards, carry on Good Sirs!

[Dom Zak]

Why do you think Ragnarok Government was involved in this spy/infiltration attempt?

So, from what I have read, president magee and rishnikof had the same IP address, therefore they were either the same person or from the same computer. Rish was part of RoK gov as a triumvir and now as an advisor. So,

Rish=Triumvir and Triumvir=Government so Rish=Government

So when Rish, acting as President Magee, did all of the things he has been accused of, including nuking Grey Council and Ghosting several AA's, he was either in the Government as a Triumvir or not and an Advisor. Can someone clarify when Rish was a trium?

[Nobody Expects]

Nothing can really be said to change my opinion. However, things can be shown. Something that shows Rok gov't knew and/or sanctioned Rish spying would do wonders to change our opinions.

I don't think the OP is targeting your opinion on this matter, I think this point was aimed at more significant people less set in their ways then the likes of you and I.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Nobody Expects

[Mr Havok]

All I'm getting from these past 20 pages is that IRON has really taken the "repeat, repeat, repeat" strategy to heart.

Honestly this should have ended after page 5, as the purpose of the thread was fulfilled:

Hoo has condemned the actions of Rish and affirmed that Ragnarok as a whole had no part in them, exactly what NATO, IRON and TOP wanted.

The point is he condemned them after the facts were brought to light, and judging by their declaration on TPF for the THREAT of spying I would say his words and his alliances word is less then trustworthy in my eyes

[Alterego]

I'm sure if Rish had gone rogue while in RoK or been caught spying without being deleted then RoK would've expelled him on the spot.

Also, say Rish was in your alliance and pulled this and people were saying it was under orders from your gov. Would you want proof of that?

I would.

Seriously, he said he was bored and going to do something. They have already said they thought he was going rouge but never even asked him what he was planning and even though they assumed he was going rogue did nothing. Why wait until he did what he was implying to expel him or ask him a question.

It wouldn't have gotten that far. As soon as I heard him say that id hound him until I got an answer, id also have the brass on his back for planning something that might put us in the crap for his own kicks. We wouldnt have accepted he was going rogue or something else and done nothing.

[juslen]

Really does it matter you wont believe anything that would be put out there

Your opinion is that the guy was a rogue and had nothing to do with spying for their gov't

Can anything really be said that will change your opinion?

I think that answer is no, so really move along because there is nothing more for you to see here

Again you really arent a great mouthpiece for your alliance

Funny I thought Jyrinx was actually one of the few people in here asking some honest questions. Amazing how he could form his own opinion.. I'm just shocked. Honestly.. what he does ask for makes sense.. PROOF. Its ok if two people don't agree with one another on an issue, but we all formulate our own opinions based on the facts that are put in front of us. Sometimes those facts are only part of the big picture so coming to an absolute conclusion is foolish until we get some actual concrete evidence aka the smoking gun. Until then.. you better believe that opinions won't be changed.. come up with something new to change them!

[Jyrinx]

So, from what I have read, president magee and rishnikof had the same IP address, therefore they were either the same person or from the same computer. Rish was part of RoK gov as a triumvir and now as an advisor. So,

Rish=Triumvir and Triumvir=Government so Rish=Government

So when Rish, acting as President Magee, did all of the things he has been accused of, including nuking Grey Council and Ghosting several AA's, he was either in the Government as a Triumvir or not and an Advisor. Can someone clarify when Rish was a trium?

Rish wasn't in any form of gov during President Magee's attacks/spying attempts. The Advisor position as stated in a post in this topic entails apparently no additional masking and is not a government position; literally he's just someone that gov might go to for advice (if I got that wrong, my mistake but I think that's right).

If he was gov at the time, I would totally agree with you.

[Ivan V]

Considering that he tried to start a conflict between TOP and NSO, shows that he was belligerent with his multi at the very least.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Ivan V

[King Srqt]

Hard to get into it in an OOC forum, but it does look like Rishnokof cheated (hence the deletion) and spied. There is nothing to suggest that anyone else or his alliance were involved in that.

But is there anything that shows that he spied while he was in RoK gov? I know UE posted a timeline but im a bit too far into my new years festivities to decipher it.

[magicninja]

So, from what I have read, president magee and rishnikof had the same IP address, therefore they were either the same person or from the same computer. Rish was part of RoK gov as a triumvir and now as an advisor. So,

Rish=Triumvir and Triumvir=Government so Rish=Government

So when Rish, acting as President Magee, did all of the things he has been accused of, including nuking Grey Council and Ghosting several AA's, he was either in the Government as a Triumvir or not and an Advisor. Can someone clarify when Rish was a trium?

A few pages ago someone posted their AA timelines side by side.

Both Magee and Rish were RoK for over a year together including the time Rish was gov. only up until 2 months ago was Magee going out on other AA's. Long after Rish had left RoK gov.

[wxyrty]

All I see is that Rishnokof is culpable. Rather than insult me, how about you link to what evidence you think implicates RoK gov?

An interesting development, to be sure. Sometimes its better to stop after making modest gains, then to act the fool by overextending and having the situation completely reversed on you.

If I were a malicious person, I wouldn't even have made that statement to an opponent but allowed it to happen. Or maybe I would and then gloat with an "I told you so." I guess no one really knows what they'll do in a situation until it happens. But I'm not that kind of person, and thankfully, at this moment, Zenith has no direct opponents but only ones by proxy.

Again, I urge those attacking my ally to take it to the table and find a resolution to everyone's satisfaction before things spiral out of control.

Interesting read. Good luck to the parties involved in getting this spy thing sorted out.

What modest gain? We have been wronged by rok. A person with in rok's leadership has been proven to be a spy and some people say that rok has nothing to do with it. Not only that but keeps on repeating why, why, why, why and turn around and ask US to prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew....and finally going rok leaders are your spy 0.o

We can we say anymore? That the spy is one of rok's leaders. rok spied on us. rok got caught.

[Jyrinx]

Considering that he tried to start a conflict between TOP and NSO, shows that he was belligerent with his multi at the very least.

Very belligerent. No arguments there.

[King Srqt]

A few pages ago someone posted their AA timelines side by side.

Both Magee and Rish were RoK for over a year together including the time Rish was gov. only up until 2 months ago was Magee going out on other AA's. Long after Rish had left RoK gov.

well t hen there ya go, I suggest RoK expell Rish and his nation be destroyed!

[Bob Janova]

To be honest I can't be bothered to check – I don't think an alliance should be held responsible for one member, even government, if they don't know about what's going on and if they do not support it when they do find out (which Ragnarok clearly don't from Hoo's statement).

[Mr Havok]

Yes, you can totally change my opinion: by showing something (screenshot, log, etc.) showing something that suggests that RoK gov knew about the incident and/or authorized it. Until then, the presumption is that he was acting on his own. It's called burden of proof being on the accuser. Something that most people accept.

OK, then let me try this:

You agree that this member had two accounts correct?

By your own admission one of said accounts was most likely used for spying purposes correct?

Who do you think he gave the information to, from his spying attempts his alternate account?

In addition he was a member of an alliance that declared on TPF for the threat of spying, but you dont see the hypocrisy?

If not then i guess i really dont know what to say to sway your opinion

[Rafael Nadal]

Rafael Nadal, your powers are on the wane, no longer do you come across as authoritative, or pound your debating points home as hard, its sad to see you in such tragic decline. I don't think the OP cares about your opinion on this matter, I think this point was aimed at more significant people less set in their ways then the likes of you and I.

The point of your post was what? To call me irrelevant? To tell me my posts don't matter?

[magicninja]

Seriously, he said he was bored and going to do something. They have already said they thought he was going rouge but never even asked him what he was planning and even though they assumed he was going rogue did nothing. Why wait until he did what he was implying to expel him or ask him a question.

It wouldn't have gotten that far. As soon as I heard him say that id hound him until I got an answer, id also have the brass on his back for planning something that might put us in the crap for his own kicks. We wouldnt have accepted he was going rogue or something else and done nothing.

I get 10 threats of members going rogue a night these days. Sometimes you just take it as blowing off steam and don;t get all up in arms over it. Most times nothing happens. Sometimes the member does what he says. I would at least give the member time to have a change of heart.

[AirMe]

I get 10 threats of members going rogue a night these days. Sometimes you just take it as blowing off steam and don;t get all up in arms over it. Most times nothing happens. Sometimes the member does what he says. I would at least give the member time to have a change of heart.

We have all talked about going rogue at some point.

[Jyrinx]

What modest gain? We have been wronged by rok. A person with in rok's leadership has been proven to be a spy and some people say that rok has nothing to do with it. Not only that but keeps on repeating why, why, why, why and turn around and ask US to prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew....and finally going rok leaders are your spy 0.o

We can we say anymore? That the spy is one of rok's leaders. rok spied on us. rok got caught.

He wasn't in RoK gov at the time. Or any form of leadership. You can't seriously think that current leadership or an alliance should be held responsible for what a former leader does after his term of leadership is over?

[magicninja]

well t hen there ya go, I suggest RoK expell Rish and his nation be destroyed!

Would be nice if this was possible to squash all this. Instead Rish and Magee have been deleted as multis.

[Kzoppistan]

What modest gain? We have been wronged by rok. A person with in rok's leadership has been proven to be a spy and some people say that rok has nothing to do with it. Not only that but keeps on repeating why, why, why, why and turn around and ask US to prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew....and finally going rok leaders are your spy 0.o

We can we say anymore? That the spy is one of rok's leaders. rok spied on us. rok got caught.

I have sympathy for your plight, sir.

I was referring to the modest gains Rok has made in the war with TPF. Though, if I were in Rok's shoes, I would probably start to consider the repercussion from this spying thing, as it is very likely to overtake what ever spat they've had with TPF.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Penkala]

Well well, I guess this teaches us we need to take Neo-Karma propaganda with a "grain of salt", and that's putting it !@#$@#$ lightly.

But that's OK, I'm a huge fan of hipocracy and double standards, carry on Good Sirs!

Either 1) you don't know what either of those terms/words mean or 2) You haven't bothered to read anything other than the O.P.

[Dom Zak]

A few pages ago someone posted their AA timelines side by side.

Both Magee and Rish were RoK for over a year together including the time Rish was gov. only up until 2 months ago was Magee going out on other AA's. Long after Rish had left RoK gov.

Thanks, I must have missed it with the 20+ pages on this thread.

Happy New Year btw