Athens does it again

[silentkiller]

What? UED themselves asked for Athen's help. How in the world is that going behind their back?

The gov are doing something that they werent elected for, so yes they are indeed going behind the memberships back.

Now repeat after me: 5(or was it 4 because 1 was affk for a few months?) gov members do not represent the opinions of the entire alliance of UED. or they could have held

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> and since it says the members are subordinate to the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> the vote of no confidence should be among the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> or possibly, alliance wide

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> both are reasonable

[21:49] <KOwens06[uED]> I would say ministers

if these gov members were so sure that they represented the whole alliance I am sure an alliance wide vote wouldnt have hurt them.

[zzzptm]

Why don't you ask them? I mean it's not like one of their own members hasn't already Stated Their Thanks to Athens in This Thread

Warrior Concept keeps firing the bullets of truth.

I want to nominate him for best poster of 2010.

[delendum]

I believe that's what he's doing right now. Do we know where to find them? No. Are you being helpful at all? No. Should you shut up unless you're going to contribute? Probably, because otherwise you look like an $@!.

Also, just a thought... only a minor one mind you... Contributing to the conversation is fun, you should try it.

See my response above, and no, I don't think his problem is that they went to Athens, I believe he is wondering if they did go to Athens at all, since there is no reason to.

It's plainly obvious what they wanted from the logs. They asked for advice and an eventual protectorate. Isn't that a suitable reason to contact another alliance?

[Bob]

People of heard of NpO, MK, TOP, NSO, and Gremlins too. I wonder why they didn't go to any of those alliances.

MK doesn't do a lot of protectorates.

NpO, feasible I agree.

TOP, I don't see much in terms of protectorates who arent ex members.

Gremlins, no protectorates.

NSO, protectorates, could have.

Athens is a good choice if you want a protectorate, they protect a good share of alliances.

I have no idea why they went to Athens instead of anyone else, but they did.

[Starbuck]

You are pretty thick arent you? They exist, therefore they were set up. I know its a tough concept for you to grasp, give it time sweetie.

lol, I'll give that to you this time. I miss read the nature it was meant in. I thought you were claiming TPF set them up as in they were set up to fall.

[Bob]

The gov are doing something that they werent elected for, so yes they are indeed going behind the memberships back.

Now repeat after me: 5(or was it 4 because 1 was affk for a few months?) gov members do not represent the opinions of the entire alliance of UED. or they could have held

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> and since it says the members are subordinate to the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> the vote of no confidence should be among the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> or possibly, alliance wide

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> both are reasonable

[21:49] <KOwens06[uED]> I would say ministers

if these gov members were so sure that they represented the whole alliance I am sure an alliance wide vote wouldnt have hurt them.

So now you are dictating UED policy to them?

But it is wrong when Athens offers them advice. Good to know.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[Anu Drake]

Finally. Took one of us retired old timers to post this. Not sure what it really indicates, but there's a lot of doing stuff people would know was a crap thing to do and flame them in there. And the decision to do it anyway.

[WarriorConcept]

The gov are doing something that they werent elected for, so yes they are indeed going behind the memberships back.

Now repeat after me: 5(or was it 4 because 1 was affk for a few months?) gov members do not represent the opinions of the entire alliance of UED. or they could have held

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> and since it says the members are subordinate to the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> the vote of no confidence should be among the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> or possibly, alliance wide

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> both are reasonable

[21:49] <KOwens06[uED]> I would say ministers

if these gov members were so sure that they represented the whole alliance I am sure an alliance wide vote wouldnt have hurt them.

Okay so UED themselves were going behind their own back.

[Kilkenny]

Why don't you ask them? I mean it's not like one of their own members hasn't already Stated Their Thanks to Athens in This Thread

Didn't the guy who thanked them get installed as the new leader?? I wouldn't doubt he would thank them...for the promotion.

they might have gone to Athens because they figured that Athens was the only alliance willing to help them coup their leader contrary to their charter??

[zzzptm]

The gov are doing something that they werent elected for, so yes they are indeed going behind the memberships back.

Now repeat after me: 5(or was it 4 because 1 was affk for a few months?) gov members do not represent the opinions of the entire alliance of UED. or they could have held

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> and since it says the members are subordinate to the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> the vote of no confidence should be among the ministers

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> or possibly, alliance wide

[21:49] <Londo[Athens]> both are reasonable

[21:49] <KOwens06[uED]> I would say ministers

if these gov members were so sure that they represented the whole alliance I am sure an alliance wide vote wouldnt have hurt them.

That would have still been a coup because they had no legal mechanism to carry out the government change.

Wow, that answer was easy for me to come up with because I read!

READING IS FUNDAMENTAL, KIDS

[NeCoHo]

Really? Man, whatever you're on, I want some. It has been rehashed so many times. Read the logs, please.

If I insult you instead of making replies worth reading, my point becomes more valid.

EDIT: with that, I'm done, because this is just getting pointless now.

Edited December 31, 2009 by NeCoHo

[Asriel Belacqua]

I think maybe you should take your own advice.

To answer your question they did go to Athens, therefore, they must have had their reasons to.

Was going to ask the question, and therefore contribute, but Ninten beat me to it. Plus, I think it's probably refreshing if people see my post and think "yeah, this guy's not contributing either" because pretty much no one is.

Well arent you a clever little nipper. Your astute contribution to the topic at hand is noted. Oh, and BTW, asking "why did THEY go to Athens" is not asking THEM, its asking 3rd party onlookers. You see sir, asking THEM would be "Why did YOU go to Athens." Its ok though, I know english a tough language. Comprehension FTW!

I did not choose how he worded the question, he worded the question that way, I was simply repeating the manner in which he worded it to be consistent with him. Try again.

[Bob]

OK... That`s it

you are BAD...athents..

My respect for NEW keeps me from saying anything but this: Please read the logs. I hope you guys will understand what happened, instead of just posting along with the rest of the group :/

[Rush Sykes]

Was going to ask the question, and therefore contribute, but Ninten beat me to it. Plus, I think it's probably refreshing if people see my post and think "yeah, this guy's not contributing either" because pretty much no one is.

I did not choose how he worded the question, he worded the question that way, I was simply repeating the manner in which he worded it to be consistent with him. Try again.

Or maybe he really just wasnt asking THEM, he was asking the peanut gallery. Its ok sunshine, if I looked as bad as you after that comment, I wouldnt admit it either.

[Grumpdogg]

All I see here are members of alliances in the CnG bloc excusing the actions of Athens, and mostly everyone else getting upset at the hypocrisy which Athens has displayed.

No not really, it's just the usual suspects jumping to conclusions without bothering to read the material presented. Then we get Bilrow and the other NPO "Karma worse than us" merchants bandwagon trolling as seems to be situation normal on the OWF these days.

Sitting on the sidelines isn't as much fun when you're not pulling all the strings ay?

*Edit: grammar

Edited December 31, 2009 by Grumpdogg

[greatnikita]

so as the battle-troll army of pro-Athens forces has been saying, Athens did nothing wrong - they are the good guys, helping UED. Tell me then, why was it so important that your innocent help stay so secret?

my pick of favourite quotes:

[23:08] <rsoxbronco1> this should look like UED is totally fed up

01[23:08] <~Wulff> We are

[23:08] <rsoxbronco1> that you'll be fine

01[23:08] <~Wulff> Also

[23:08] <KOwens06[uED]> Well the ministers are

very representative of 65 members, isnt it?

[23:07] <rsoxbronco1> You really really don't want it to look like you're behind it

secrets...

[22:26] <rsoxbronco1> but I personally don't want to see us dragged into a coup/charter/disbandment fight

[22:26] <TimLee> But they care about the members.

[22:26] <KOwens06[uED]> That's why were moving on

[22:26] <Londo[Athens]> it's a field full of landmines

[22:27] <Londo[Athens]> and Athens is trying to walk gingerly now.

[22:27] <TimLee> You'd have no involvement.

[22:27] <Londo[Athens]> given recent events

01[22:27] <~Wulff> Athens has no part of the coup/disbandement etc etc

OH RLY?

[22:16] <TimLee> That's 4/5 with a DMOIA agreeing.

[22:16] <KOwens06[uED]> I like her

[22:16] <KOwens06[uED]> That wasn't quick

[22:17] <TimLee> I believe his goose is cooked.

[22:17] <TimLee> The final judgment call rests with Athens though.

so Athens had no part...except deciding the whole thing, right?

and the best one: we're not stepping in, but here's what i want you to do lol

[22:52] <rsoxbronco1> we're not stepping in

[22:52] <rsoxbronco1> this is an internal UED matter

[22:52] <Pinkiwi[uED]> cool

[22:52] <KOwens06[uED]> I agree

[22:53] <rsoxbronco1> we're not going to be muscle

[22:53] <rsoxbronco1> here's what your timeline should look like

[22:53] <rsoxbronco1> tomorrow night, announce your big post about amending the charter and removing KDII

[22:54] <rsoxbronco1> you install whoever you want as your new leader

[22:54] <rsoxbronco1> I don't really care who

[Asriel Belacqua]

It's plainly obvious what they wanted from the logs. They asked for advice and an eventual protectorate. Isn't that a suitable reason to contact another alliance?

It is a suitable reason to contact another alliance, this I am not arguing. I am not really arguing anything. Heck, I'm not even on a specific side as of this moment. I am simply repeating a question that could determine a lot, in my opinion, about this whole situation.

[WarriorConcept]

Didn't the guy who thanked them get installed as the new leader?? I wouldn't doubt he would thank them...for the promotion.

they might have gone to Athens because they figured that Athens was the only alliance willing to help them coup their leader contrary to their charter??

Their charter didn't allow a legal coup of them, kind of reminds you of NPO doesn't it?

Athens didn't help anyone coup anyone at all, I don't believe they can change the charter of UED can they?

[Mathias]

Everything you're blaming Athens for, UED did. They couped UED (which most of you supported), they set up a new government and charter (which most of you supported), and they disbanded the alliance (which most of you blamed on Athens).

Athens offered to protect an alliance at its weakest (no allies, internally unstable, etc.), so what exactly did we do wrong? Oh yeah, talking to them about it. That's what we did that was so reprehensible.

[Bob]

Didn't the guy who thanked them get installed as the new leader?? I wouldn't doubt he would thank them...for the promotion.

No, he didn't actually. That was Wulff. KOwens is a different guy, who was already in the government in the position he was in.

Please, try again. read the wiki if you don't believe me.

they might have gone to Athens because they figured that Athens was the only alliance willing to help them coup their leader contrary to their charter??

I would have pushed for MK to help them get rid of KDII if they had come to us. KDII is not a good leader, and if you know that about him you can understand wanting to get rid of him.

Edit: But again, they just offered advice and a protectorate, nothing more.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[WarriorConcept]

so as the battle-troll army of pro-Athens forces has been saying, Athens did nothing wrong - they are the good guys, helping UED. Tell me then, why was it so important that your innocent help stay so secret?

my pick of favourite quotes:

very representative of 65 members, isnt it?

secrets...

OH RLY?

so Athens had no part...except deciding the whole thing, right?

and the best one: we're not stepping in, but here's what i want you to do lol

Nice selective reading, but when put in context you realize that the final call was on Athens willing to grant the protectorate at the end so UED knew they'd be safe post-disbandment.

[Asriel Belacqua]

Or maybe he really just wasnt asking THEM, he was asking the peanut gallery. Its ok sunshine, if I looked as bad as you after that comment, I wouldnt admit it either.

He really is trying to ask them. I would happen to know because I'm in 4 different IRC channels with him and discussing this very topic (including the one where he's asking them) in said channels.

Again, nice try to you too. Also, it would help me feel sympathetic to your side if you weren't being such an $@!. Just saying.

[Lord Hed]

Honestly, I came into this thread thinking "Crap, they might've found something really bad on Athens. This could be very, very bad."

And yet here I am, leaving the thread, eagerly awaiting the reset that TPF's allies finally declare and the rest of C&G can stand by Athens.

o/ Athens

[Scorbolt]

Didn't the guy who thanked them get installed as the new leader?? I wouldn't doubt he would thank them...for the promotion.

they might have gone to Athens because they figured that Athens was the only alliance willing to help them coup their leader contrary to their charter??

They went to Athens because they wanted friendly advice on how to prevent their community from being destroyed by a terrible leader.

If they had wanted their community destroyed they might have came to you if they had been aware that you were willing to spawn a break-off alliance to attempt to destabilize them.

[Bob]

Please, can you actually know something about PB politics, or politics in general before commenting on it. Makes an $@! out of you, and I'm sure that isn't your intent.

To eliminate a few points:

and the best one: we're not stepping in, but here's what i want you to do lol

Offering advice. The horror.

so Athens had no part...except deciding the whole thing, right?

Well..yeah. Athens had to make the decision to give them the protectorate, or they would not feel safe to do it.

OH RLY?

Show me what Athens did, please. Well done though making it seem like they had done something terrible by selectively quoting that bit.

secrets...

Context, context, context.

very representative of 65 members, isnt it?

It is more then appear to be against it from the evidence you have presented. I have personally massmessaged UED to ask for their opinion, which none of you appear capable of doing before posting this thread.