the damned Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Ive been playing this game for damn near four years. Ive never been in a position of power within any of the alliances that i have been in and i know little about what goes on behind the scene. I basically form my opinions on what i gather from OWF, my alliance, musings from other old timer, ect ect. This case is no different. Now that i have bored most of the few players that bothered to check out this thread to the point of closing their browser and bashing their fore head against the nearest hard surface, i will get to the point for those still with us. The argument has been made that Athens and Rok's CB is invalid. Now, for obvious reasons (hint: look at my alliance tag) i feel that the CB is valid. I believe this due to the fact that according to this there was never an official declaration of war between TPF and Athens/Rok. There are several reasons why alliances chose to declare war against specific enemies rather than the opposing side as a whole (i think everyone can figure out major reasons so i am not going to list them) mhawk signaled out these two alliances to subvert. He and his cabinet created an alliance specifically to destroy them from the inside. Whether or not the plan was successfully carried it is irrelevant. TPF initiated the conflict by establishing ZH with the hope that it would one day infiltrate Athens and destroy it from the inside. A failed spy attempt is still spying. I am going to go out on a limb and say that i understand mhawk's reasons for doing this. He felt that his alliance would face a similar situation as that of FAN and he attempted to fight an endless war by copying a play from the book of the only alliance that successfully fought one. What he did not count on was peace. Im not going to praise the mercy of Karma for coming to terms with TPF or the rest of the Hegemony's side. Im sure that Karma's reasons for granting it were self serving and i highly doubt that it was solely done for the sake of doing what is right. I apologize but i am not exactly certain when TPF and ZH had their falling out. However, the point remains that (if you consider spying to be an act of aggression towards another alliance) TPF had initiated a conflict with the aforementioned alliances. Once he had peace he could have gone to Athens and Ragnarok and told them what he had done. Im sure neither one would have been happy about it, but the punishment would have probably been less severe had it come out at that time. The fact that it has taken this long to surface does not lessen his guilt. A murder committed twenty years ago does not make the crime any less grievous. I can also see why he would not want to bring added suffering upon TPF but he had over six months to come clean and he didnt. As far as the culpability of Zero Hour goes, they do deserve some of the blame IMO. I have no idea what their punishment should be and i am afraid that its up to the offended parties to make sure that justice is served. Before I begin the final part of this little crap fest of mine, i would like to say that this is a view that i hold separate from my allies and alliance. I think that the offended parties could have waited before attacking. This does not mean that i think they were necessarily wrong in doing so. I personally think the correct thing to do would have been to figure out a reps package that would have compensated for the spies. Its possible that, had mhawk or TPF gov. gone to Athens and/or Rok in the first place with this proposal, there might have been a way to work out a peaceful deal. Its entirely possible that the offended parties would still have demanded blood for the offense but I dont know for sure (I dont know Lando or Hoo well enough to judge which way they would go. I know, I know im an awful citizen of bob). The fact of the matter is that TPF never attempted to make amends for their crime. The thing that i find most disturbing is why mhawk would chose to activate his treaties? Had i been in his position, i would have refused to do this and taken the brunt of the attack on my alliance alone. If he considers what happened a mistake this would show that he was willing to take responsibility for a plan that ended up a complete disaster. If he doesnt, in the very least he would spare a large group of recovering allies the pounding that a large scale conflict would incur (win or lose). In the past few weeks it seems that the body of what was once known as Karma has been eying each other suspiciously. A couple weeks worth of taking a beating could have allowed other issues to surface that may have caused TPF's attackers to divert focus from it. But now im just rambling... Thank you for bearing with me. Its been a long, disappointing day and i thought id provide the cyberverse with a useless wall of text. Edited December 30, 2009 by the damned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfEmpty Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Wow! Are you really in Sparta? Nice post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerichoholic Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Maybe it's just me being tired, but The argument has been made that Athens and Rok's CB is invalid. Now, for obvious reasons (hint: look at my alliance tag) i feel that it is. Seems like it means you agree that it is invalid. Perhaps you should say The argument has been made that Athens and Rok's CB _isn't valid_. Now, for obvious reasons (hint: look at my alliance tag) i feel that it is. And yeah, a lot of this (just like most wars) could've easily been avoided if they had come clean in the first place. The deception back then doesn't help their protests of innocence now. Edited December 30, 2009 by Jerichoholic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Well said. I don't agree with all that you said, but you said it well. I think Sparta benefits from having a member capable of such perspective on matters. Edited December 30, 2009 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the damned Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Whoops, I should have done a better job proof reading. this marks my 25 hour being up without a drop of coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Mango Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Even though I don't agree with what you said, I do like the way you said it. It's refreshing to see someone from "the other side" not confined to spouting the usual drivel that we see all over the forums. Well written post and get yourself a government position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I am going to go out on a limb and say that i understand mhawk's reasons for doing this. He felt that his alliance would face a similar situation as that of FAN and he attempted to fight an endless war by copying a play from the book of the only alliance that successfully fought one. LSF didn't do too poorly in this situation either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 People are only saying the CB is invalid because they are either misinformed or using as a propaganda point to garner support for their cause, while the former is annoying but you can't really blame the latter group. I agree with most of what you say here but I don't agree that Athens should have waited before attacking or asked for reparations from the spy attempt. Espionage is something that is widely disagreeable as proven by 90% of TPF's treaties having an anti-espionage on 3rd parties clause (which doesn't change because the alliance is already at war). Added to that is the attempt to break apart the community of Athens from the inside, that is the worst kind of attack someone can launch and it is truly despicable. Athens was justifiably pissed that it occurred as they did nothing to provoke it, they have every right to defend their community from the wolves that want to shred it apart. If you created an alliance which was born through as much hardship and struggle as Athens was, poured so much effort into it, and then someone tried to destroy that because of no fault on your own behalf, would you really just take some money and ask them not to do it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farore Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well written and a good read. I agree with you that the CB is far from being invalid, spying be successful or failed, is still spying and deserves punishment. Jack Diorno also points out a great part of TPF's offense. Trying to destroy a community is ugly and really a low shot in my opinion. As far as the culpability of Zero Hour goes, they do deserve some of the blame IMO. I have no idea what their punishment should be and i am afraid that its up to the offended parties to make sure that justice is served. Some? I personally put ZH on the same level of deserving punishment as TPF. TPF thought of the plan, and put it in action. ZH members agreed to the mission, damn well knew what risk they were taking and so they have done the exact same thing that TPF did. That is where I am confused, Athens is pissed at TPF for good reasons but just because ZH came clean, they seem to have been cleaned of all their wrong doings. I don't see a protectorate cancellation, I don't see DoW on ZH. Why is ZH not being punished for their actions? Their motives at the beginning were the same as TPF. I might have skipped the post which answer my question, so if anyone can link me towards the answers that would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eye Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 IC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keres Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 r I am going to go out on a limb and say that i understand mhawk's reasons for doing this. He felt that his alliance would face a similar situation as that of FAN and he attempted to fight an endless war by copying a play from the book of the only alliance that successfully fought one. What he did not count on was peace well TPF were offered Peace and rejected it during the Karma war, so his war would have been long, but far from endless, and he decided RoK, Athens and Sparta were the alliances that deserved to be destroyed from the inside... alliances TPF wasnt at war with.. at all, only that they were on opposing sides... fighting other opponents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well said Damned. Personally, I think Athens/RoK are justified in attacking as promptly as they did (their quick reaction is a testament to their efficiency imo), but the core of your points (spying 6 months ago is still spying) I completely agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulomascovia Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Before I begin the final part of this little crap fest of mine, i would like to say that this is a view that i hold separate from my allies and alliance. I think that the offended parties could have waited before attacking. This does not mean that i think they were necessarily wrong in doing so. I personally think the correct thing to do would have been to figure out a reps package that would have compensated for the spies. Its possible that, had mhawk or TPF gov. gone to Athens and/or Rok in the first place with this proposal, there might have been a way to work out a peaceful deal. Its entirely possible that the offended parties would still have demanded blood for the offense but I dont know for sure (I dont know Lando or Hoo well enough to judge which way they would go. I know, I know im an awful citizen of bob). The fact of the matter is that TPF never attempted to make amends for their crime. The thing that i find most disturbing is why mhawk would chose to activate his treaties? Had i been in his position, i would have refused to do this and taken the brunt of the attack on my alliance alone. If he considers what happened a mistake this would show that he was willing to take responsibility for a plan that ended up a complete disaster. If he doesnt, in the very least he would spare a large group of recovering allies the pounding that a large scale conflict would incur (win or lose). In the past few weeks it seems that the body of what was once known as Karma has been eying each other suspiciously. A couple weeks worth of taking a beating could have allowed other issues to surface that may have caused TPF's attackers to divert focus from it. But now im just rambling...Thank you for bearing with me. Its been a long, disappointing day and i thought id provide the cyberverse with a useless wall of text. Fully agreed. I don't know why everyone is afraid of diplomacy these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis the II Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) I think thats a great post. The point that I have haven't been discussed yet. 1- I think there was a godd valid reason for war...yada yada yada 2- TPF was punished. My question is: Isn't the punishment already enough? Just look at the charts of TPF NS. Shouldn't a white peace be offered right now? If TPF wanted to continue, or its allies wanted to jump in is another story, but for now I think the punishment was delivered. We don't need an "overkill" edit: good was spelled wrong and valid is a better word. Edited December 30, 2009 by King Louis the II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzptm Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 The most important point to be brought up is that Athens and TPF were not at war at the moment the spying attempt was made. Had this been included in the DoW, there would have been less questioning of its validity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubla Khan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Well said old timer This is probobly the best written post on this issue I have read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucasSnow Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) I agree, and have been wondering on this from the start. I am also of the opinion that if TPFs allies are not going to join in, and even if they are, it's about time for a peace to be offered, and to sit down and start talking. Now I am in no position of power within my alliance, nor do I have the ear of another, but I can only hope the ones with the power, on either side, are not using this as a reasoning to further their personal War goals. Edited December 31, 2009 by LucasSnow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiL3nT Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 You should be president of sparta, if not now then as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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