The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[JBone]

Did you take any steps to ensure they were not a threat beyond conjecture?

A threat to Athens?

I would think that the signing of the protectorate and the cutting of ties IC and OOC to hawk convinced us they were not a threat to Athens....they actually became friends.

[WarriorConcept]

A threat to Athens?

I would think that the signing of the protectorate and the cutting of ties IC and OOC to hawk convinced us they were not a threat to Athens....they actually became friends.

Wasn't the signing of the protectorate and becoming friends part of the whole plan?

[silentkiller]

No, they are being given a pat on the shoulder for confessing when they didn't have to.

Didnt have to? they get the chance to damage the alliance they hate and establish good relations with multiple relations with the now stronger side of the treaty web. Oh not to mention also geting prased for "doing it when thet didnt have to". Only a fool would miss out on such an oppurtunity.

Also to all the people saying that TPF was not in an eternal war I did say they were in a possible eternal war due to their own and PC's refusal to budge on their demands.

I ask you again, why should anyone trust TPFs word on this issue? It would have been a waste of time for all involved.

and this somehow makes the word of the main participants in the event trustable, Triton's logs were accepted without a second thougt.

[Merrie Melodies]

A threat to Athens?

I would think that the signing of the protectorate and the cutting of ties IC and OOC to hawk convinced us they were not a threat to Athens....they actually became friends.

Unfortunatley for TPF they did exactly what Mhawk wanted them to do, falling out or not.

[tamerlane]

I'm not saying Athens stored this away for a rainy day after knowing about it for months; I'm saying this idea that it can, and still hold so much weight is ridiculous, this opening a door of fallacy for reasons for wars.

A door that alliances can open at their own risk.

[Bob]

Didnt have to? they get the chance to damage the alliance they hate and establish good relations with multiple relations with the now stronger side of the treaty web. Oh not to mention also geting prased for "doing it when thet didnt have to". Only a fool would miss out on such an oppurtunity.

Which is why they were forced into it by Zulichep and they totally weren't afraid to do it at all. At allll. They weren't afraid of the Athens reprisal in any way.

Oh wait, that's a lie.

They didn't know this would be the outcome, they were willing to accept any punishment.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[2burnt2eat]

A door that alliances can open at their own risk.

Fair enough.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I have missed a lot of this so maybe someone can help me out.

Has evidence of TPF actually attempting the plans talked about in the discussion shown up? Just curious.

Also, while it is true that Athens and TPF were not actively engaged with one another during the Karma war isn't that just semantics and coincidence? Karma as a group allocated targets to various parts of the campaign. Some alliances initially declared on NPO, others on allies, etc etc. TPF was on the side of "hegemony" while Athens was on the side of "Karma", therefore simply because they were not technically at war with one another it seems that they were still "at war" with one another, right?

What am I missing? Just wondering.

[tamerlane]

and this somehow makes the word of the main participants in the event trustable, Triton's logs were accepted without a second thougt.

Have you even read the OP?

[Eden Taylor]

Can we stop saying that TPF was in an eternal war?

Anyone that was around during the karma war and isn't a goldfish know that TPF was ammong the alliances that were offered peace terms pretty early in the war and they refused to take them. Nobody that read the owf at the time could possibly have been under the impression that TPF would never get peace. Kudos to them for holding out but they were in no way forced to continue the war any longer than they wanted to.

Stop it; you're embarrassing yourself. It's obvious no one cares to examine the propaganda they're spewing.

[Merrie Melodies]

I have missed a lot of this so maybe someone can help me out.

Has evidence of TPF actually attempting the plans talked about in the discussion shown up? Just curious.

Also, while it is true that Athens and TPF were not actively engaged with one another during the Karma war isn't that just semantics and coincidence? Karma as a group allocated targets to various parts of the campaign. Some alliances initially declared on NPO, others on allies, etc etc. TPF was on the side of "hegemony" while Athens was on the side of "Karma", therefore simply because they were not technically at war with one another it seems that they were still "at war" with one another, right?

What am I missing? Just wondering.

In the short

1 TPF created a sleeper cell

2 TPF deployed sleeper cell

3 TPF's handler and said sleeper cell had a falling out

4. Sleeper cell continues building relationship with Athens

5. TPF writes off sleeper cell internally but never takes action to expose or insure it is ended, they just "assume"

6 many months later sleeper cell confesses to plot

7 WAR

TPF admits to creating sleeper cell

TPF claims since there was a fall out the cell is no longer there responsibilty

Edited December 27, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[neneko]

Has evidence of TPF actually attempting the plans talked about in the discussion shown up? Just curious.

Yes.

Also, while it is true that Athens and TPF were not actively engaged with one another during the Karma war isn't that just semantics and coincidence? Karma as a group allocated targets to various parts of the campaign. Some alliances initially declared on NPO, others on allies, etc etc. TPF was on the side of "hegemony" while Athens was on the side of "Karma", therefore simply because they were not technically at war with one another it seems that they were still "at war" with one another, right?

imho that's not the issue here. This became an issue when they kept the people they planted in place and the operation a secret after peace was declared.

What am I missing? Just wondering.

Is it a goat? We just lost one at umbrella too.

[Dochartaigh]

FAN was never on "eternal ZI".

Usually you're pretty together, but this is laughable. They refused to surrender, their war was of their choosing.

actually there were no terms for FAN to surrender to. the only terms they got were to come out of peace mode and be destroyed. there was nothing else. nothing indicating that once they got destroyed they would get peace. not to mention given the dubious way in which vietFAN began (the "breaking" of terms) do you honestly think that FAN did not feel that even if they got peace, they would not simply be destroyed a third time or a fourth time or a fifth time?

while i do not agree with the way FAN conducted the war, their war is nothing like what TPF went through at all. their war was most assuredly not of their choosing.

[Merrie Melodies]

Is it a goat? We just lost one at umbrella too.

As a fellow four legged barnyard animal I will decry any harm that may come to said goat.

[SpoiL]

So TPF made an act of war while being at war? If so, the question is did it continue after the war? If TPF had a falling out with ZH, any actions taken by ZH has nothing to do with TPF.

[WarriorConcept]

So TPF made an act of war while being at war? If so, the question is did it continue after the war? If TPF had a falling out with ZH, any actions taken by ZH has nothing to do with TPF.

TPF was never at war with Athens.

Yes.

And TPF never canceled the plan.

[Ivan Moldavi]

As a fellow four legged barnyard animal I will decry any harm that may come to said goat.

All animals, like babies, are just spare food.

Also, thanks. I guess I have been mistaken. I was told that TPF held these conversations but that no action was taken on them and that no evidence of that had been presented.

That's a real shame.

[JBone]

It would have ended if you declared war on Athens then signed peace with Athens.

You surrendered during the beginning of a long term plan that would've held no relevance to that war at the time. The plan was to hurt long after and mhawk's intent was clear in all the logs.

Are you dense?

The plan was over before we signed terms.

The plan was to hurt long term........... if there was a long and drawn out war.

Yes, we decided to stay in.

That's why we thought it could be long term.....we were not leaving until NPO did.

Can we stop saying that TPF was in an eternal war?

Anyone that was around during the karma war and isn't a goldfish know that TPF was ammong the alliances that were offered peace terms pretty early in the war and they refused to take them. Nobody that read the owf at the time could possibly have been under the impression that TPF would never get peace. Kudos to them for holding out but they were in no way forced to continue the war any longer than they wanted to.

All true, we decided to stay....that is the reason we had long term plans.

I believe it has been stated multiple times in this thread by Archon, pretty trusty guy on issues such as these, that this occurred during peace talks. To put it in perspective, peace was on the table and they were making these plans. I ask you again, why should anyone trust TPFs word on this issue? It would have been a waste of time for all involved.

Talks began shortly after the war began, I'm sure many things on both sides were planned during that time period.

[Ejayrazz]

TPF was never at war with Athens.

Yes.

And TPF never canceled the plan.

I am not being a dick, I am honestly wondering:

Where is the evidence this continued after the Karma war? Nor does it change the outcome, was just wondering if there was any verification.

I am completely open-minded, its just I don't recall seeing any evidence it continued.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Merrie Melodies]

So TPF made an act of war while being at war? If so, the question is did it continue after the war? If TPF had a falling out with ZH, any actions taken by ZH has nothing to do with TPF.

Even if the recent actions of ZH were meant to hurt TPF it is still TPF's doing, they created this sleeper and never made any attempts to expose or disable it.

[Kevin McDonald]

Not sure if someone pointed this out, but the act of setting up the spinoff alliances is all that matters. If contact was lost without taking steps (or succeeding in) shutting the spinoff alliances down, mhawk and TPF still hold the blame.

Edit: Or it could be what the guy above me says :v

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kevin McDonald

[JBone]

Wasn't the signing of the protectorate and becoming friends part of the whole plan?

It was part of the original plan, yes.

The fact that it happened despite the plan no longer existing is not something TPF had control over.

[tamerlane]

So TPF made an act of war while being at war? If so, the question is did it continue after the war? If TPF had a falling out with ZH, any actions taken by ZH has nothing to do with TPF.

TPF made an act of war that extended beyond the length of the war without calling it off.

There would not be a war if the respective parties had been notified by TPF sometime between when they thought up the brilliant idea and now.

[WarriorConcept]

All animals, like babies, are just spare food.

Also, thanks. I guess I have been mistaken. I was told that TPF held these conversations but that no action was taken on them and that no evidence of that had been presented.

That's a real shame.

The alliance being created and signing a protectorate with Athens was part of the plan. That happened

Are you dense?

The plan was over before we signed terms.

The plan was to hurt long term........... if there was a long and drawn out war.

Yes, we decided to stay in.

That's why we thought it could be long term.....we were not leaving until NPO did.

All true, we decided to stay....that is the reason we had long term plans.

Talks began shortly after the war began, I'm sure many things on both sides were planned during that time period.

Really? So your plan to hurt Athens, an alliance you weren't at war with, was supposed to help you in your war?

And no, only the hegemony ever needed to try such underhanded means.

I am not being a dick, I am honestly wondering:

Where is the evidence this continued after the Karma war?

I am completely open-minded, its just I don't recall seeing any evidence it continued.

It was a sleeper cell whose plan included being created and becoming a protectorate of athens.

[WarriorConcept]

It was part of the original plan, yes.

The fact that it happened despite the plan no longer existing is not something TPF had control over.

When did mhawk call the plan off?