JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Wow, TPF has bested GGA in terms of longest thread. I sure hope GGA doesn't get jealous of their friends in TPF. Do we get medals? Perhaps the Vaunted Clandestined Cabal Award? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 To whoever started the nukes flying: thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Proof exists of mhawk plotting it. No proof exists of mhawk calling it off. This is my entire argument.In the analogy I've posted many times with the 5 nations, it's the same case. There is proof of me plotting, no proof of me calling it off. I guess your proof of it being called off...lies in the fact that it never happened. Why do you think it never happened? ....and by happened, I mean came to full fruition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Proof exists of mhawk plotting it. No proof exists of mhawk calling it off. This is my entire argument.In the analogy I've posted many times with the 5 nations, it's the same case. There is proof of me plotting, no proof of me calling it off. How would it even be possible for mhawk to call off an op after it was decided that it wouldn't be put into action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Because it was done while in a state of war and mhawk didn't attempt it when he was granted peace?If we were at war when you made the plans, and there were no plans to attack me after peace was granted, then yes, it's cool. You're conveniently forgetting these very important details. No, I am NOT forgetting those details. I am telling you I never called it off, in my analogy. I am telling you no proof of mhawk ever calling it off exists either. Maybe he honestly didn't pursue it after it got called off, but he wasn't the one calling it off, was he? Which means if ZH never called it off, the plan would still be in motion. The plan would still be in motion if ZH didn't call it off. If ZH didn't call it off, the plan would still be in motion. How does this absolve mhawk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryraccoon Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How would it even be possible for mhawk to call off an op after it was decided that it wouldn't be put into action? How could ZH call it off if it didnt start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I guess your proof of it being called off...lies in the fact that it never happened.Why do you think it never happened? ....and by happened, I mean came to full fruition. Because ZH called it off. See my latest post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Okay, i just want to get this straight:Zero Hour is comprised of former TPF members who were going to leave TPF anyways. During TPF's time at war with Karma (which was an entity), mhawk and the rest came up with a plan to try to weaken Athens and RoK by having Zero Hour members eventually infiltrate and then attempt to splinter those alliances. Then, due to OOC relationships issues apparently (around July), Zero Hour and TPF leadership don't talk anymore and basically don't like each other. At this point, the operation is de facto dead because neither party likes each other anymore. But apparently, after another OOC tiff MONTHS later, Zero Hour gov releases the logs right around Christmas and are released with no punishment for being upstanding citizens. However, at the same time, TPF is rolled because during wartime, they planned an infiltration/sabotage of Athens and RoK which never happened. That is !@#$@#$ stupid. This entire things seems to have started as a stupid idea that was only half serious and now the entirety of Planet Bob will suffer when the nukes start flying because of a love triangle between a small number of nation rulers. At this point, it seems like the main factor in wanting the war to continue is that mhawk actually thought his plan would be a good idea when he was under the idea, however mistaken, that TPF would never get peace due to Pacifica potentially never receiving peace. No harm came to Athens or ROK. Hell, Athens apparently gained a protectorate/ally that is willing to toss friends(even if they are former friends) under the bus for them. This entire thing is stupid and we should all be shamed of taking part in it. Very nice summation Brandon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Proof exists of mhawk plotting it. No proof exists of mhawk calling it off. This is my entire argument.In the analogy I've posted many times with the 5 nations, it's the same case. There is proof of me plotting, no proof of me calling it off. If it doesn't happen, why the hell does it matter if there is proof it didn't get called off? NOTHING HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!! I hate you right now and want to attack you. does that mean you'd have a "legitimate CB" to declare on me? (notwithstanding the moldavi principle of being able to do whatever you want whenever you want, of course) Example: Okay, I want to rob a convenience store and do all the prep work, but then I don't actually rob a convenience store. I could not get arrested for "robbery" because I never robbed anyone. Edited December 28, 2009 by Brandon Simonson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 No, I am NOT forgetting those details. I am telling you I never called it off, in my analogy. I am telling you no proof of mhawk ever calling it off exists either. HOW DO YOU CALL A CANCELLED OPERATION OFF? If a light is off, you can't turn it off. Maybe he honestly didn't pursue it after it got called off, but he wasn't the one calling it off, was he? Which means if ZH never called it off, the plan would still be in motion.The plan would still be in motion if ZH didn't call it off. If ZH didn't call it off, the plan would still be in motion. Unwarranted assumption. How do you know mhawk wouldn't have cancelled it at the same time he cancelled his other war plans, when the surrender treaty was written? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Unless of course the treaties specifically state that they always activate Oh, you mean like this? Article I: Mutual DefenseAny declaration of war upon a member of either alliance is considered an act of aggression to the undersigned member alliances. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=6780 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How could ZH call it off if it didnt start? ZH didn't call off an op. They decided to not do one. IE it never got out of the idea stage and into an actual op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 HOW DO YOU CALL A CANCELLED OPERATION OFF? If a light is off, you can't turn it off. Unwarranted assumption. How do you know mhawk wouldn't have cancelled it at the same time he cancelled his other war plans, when the surrender treaty was written? How do I know he did? And this is what it comes down to. Athens and company feel very strongly that this type of a plan was still a threat to them. Hence their CB. Hence them attacking. I am in that camp. You are within your rights to feel otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How could ZH call it off if it didnt start? It did start. By that I mean it was discussed, planned and then discarded....all before any actual action was taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 ... Then, due to OOC relationships issues ... *Yawn* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooner Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How would it even be possible for mhawk to call off an op after it was decided that it wouldn't be put into action? Where did he say that he put off the op? Oh yeah, he didn't. Again, he's reminding me more of President Jalen than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh, you mean like this?http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=6780 Yes, but activating that requires a CB. Which there isn't for the agressors in this war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 It did start.By that I mean it was discussed, planned and then discarded....all before any actual action was taken. X By X, I mean Y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How do I know he did? Did what? And this is what it comes down to. Athens and company feel very strongly that this type of a plan was still a threat to them. Hence their CB. Hence them attacking. I am in that camp. They feel that a plan called off six months ago is a threat? I can't say much for their intelligence then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Where did he say that he put off the op? Oh yeah, he didn't. Again, he's reminding me more of President Jalen than anything else. It didn't say anywhere that he put off the op. It was decided that it wouldn't be put into action before the war ended. There was no op to "put off". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Yes, but activating that requires a CB. Which there isn't for the agressors in this war. So wait, wait. Did you just say that someone has to have a valid reason for attack you -- a casus belli -- for your DEFENSIVE TREATY to activate, but if they attack you without one it doesn't activate? lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So what you're saying is, alliances make the sovereign decisions to declare war, not treaties?I definitely agree. Athens absolutely was not at war with TPF as neither had activated their treaties in such a way. Which means that Karma was a figment of our collective imaginations and when the treaty ending the war against TPF was signed, indicating that Karma was giving TPF peace and particular the below signed alliances, that too was a figment of our collective imaginations... Oh but wait...Karma did act collectively, speak collectively, etc. for the duration of the war. While there were times that Hegemony alliances were granted peace in a way that did not show a uniformity of terms, nevertheless, Karma was acting as a military and political entity. In the case of Valhalla, that meant that after we attacked PC, and were in return attacked by Umbrella, later RIA, and also Fark, among others. Not because of treaties, per se, but because of a coordinated military assault. You, and people like you, are adding additional complexity to the reality of warfare simply because it suits you to do so at the moment. This is not complicated. The war was over. Karma granted TPF peace. Now the TPF is now being attacked for supposed crimes during that war. The CB does not stand up close examination and indeed is looking weaker by the hour. I'm sorry if you feel like TPF wasn't punished enough during the war because they have the audacity to not die off in the months since the conflict ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So wait, wait. Did you just say that someone has to have a valid reason for attack you -- a casus belli -- for your DEFENSIVE TREATY to activate, but if they attack you without one it doesn't activate?lol... That is a sidebuster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So wait, wait. Did you just say that someone has to have a valid reason for attack you -- a casus belli -- for your DEFENSIVE TREATY to activate, but if they attack you without one it doesn't activate?lol... No. I did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 No. I did not. Kindly clarify, good sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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