OBP OOC Thread

[Stefano Palmieri]

What the topic Says. OOC nao Go

[Tahsir]

Please realise I did not "create" Botha Mode. I have been RPing this way since December 26, 2006. Back then, anyone who RP'ed used in-game stats. All the rules everyone has come up with have come after the fact because some people whined about "my nation got hurt in Great War 2 and I don't want to RP a nation that went down the toilet" or something like that. They wanted to have gazillion man armies and launch nuclear warheads at will with no ramifications. Those people who accept such rules are those who felt constrained by the game. Those of us in Botha Mode who RP, RP because we are reflecting the game.

It really all really boils down to two philospohical issues:

1) should people be forced to RP something they do not agree to?

2) what is more important: RP or IG?

People who RP in Botha Mode do so because 1) they do not believe anyone should force them to do something arbitrarily outside of the game mechanics of CN, and 2) the IG nation is always more important than the RP nation, because without the the IG nation and mechanics, there would never have been any CNRP to begin with.

Junio is trying to have his CNRP cake and eat the Botha-mode cake as well though. He wants the RP only stuff, and the Botha-mode protection from pure RP retaliation from his own non-IG RP actions. That is the issue here. If we had a problem with RP = IG then you wouldn't be so popular Botha

Its when RP = sometimes IG, and only RP when I say so.

Well they can go non-canon or something.

[The FSM]

Apologies Botha, I have only recently returned to CNRP after a very long hiatus and when I saw it was labeled Botha mode I assumed that you had a greater role in institutionalizing it then you perhaps did. While I have not been RPing since 2006 I did RP around here for quite a while in CNRP's early days and I know first hand of what you speak of. RP back then was a very wild place with very little in terms of regulation and people tended to go wild and far off the base of their IG capabilities. Like you I am someone who tries to RP more or less along the lines of my IG nation. While the nation name, government type, and location may be different the stats I have IG are very similar to what I have here.

I appreciate what your style of RPing has done for CNRP and the changes I notice between when I first RPed and now are quite dramatic. CNRP is much more realistic now than what it was back then and I agree with the examples you cite in your post in the OBP thread about gazillion man armies and such.

I have no objection to the 'two tenets' of Botha mode that you outline in your sig, my issue is when those two tenets are taken and abused. If a nation goes strictly by the rules of Botha mode and refuses to agree to any form of RP warfare that does not correspond to an IG, is that fair for everyone else? If I try and be perfectly reasonable with someone in strict Botha mode and this person refuses to agree to any form of RP war, even if he has taunted and provoked me, is that fair?

I dont think MC would have attacked Borghese In Game if Borghese had not publicly refused to entertain any form of RP war despite the fact that he was going around and IC insulting other nations. In a normal situation these nations he has insulted would have the option of an RP military retaliation if they so desired. They may not have always elected to use the military option, but it was always a possibility. But with Borghese, the military option is automatically removed and the RP abilities of every other player in this RP is restricted in a small way because he refuses outright to even entertain the idea of an RP war. The way I see it is that Borghese is abusing Botha mode as a sort of 'peace mode' for RP. By using Botha mode he is able to taunt other players as much as he wants without giving them any RP recourse to do anything about it.

[Bacharth]

Because I'm feeling in an opinionated mode tonight, I'll say what I have to say.

Where the main divergence is between Botha-moders and Canon-crusaders (seewutIdidthar?) is two different types of realism. Canon-crusaders (who I will refer to as CBs, and Botha-moders as PBs), want to roleplay what a real-world nation would be like with realistic stats and politics. PBs want to roleplay their in-game nations. Unfortunately, these two types of people have now come to inhabit CNRP, and they have become like Capitalism and Communism, they cannot co-exist.

The last two European wars have something in common: both victim nations that were attacked subscribe to Botha-mode or some other form of it. Uberstein did not recognize un-planned wars. Roth does not recognize non-IG wars. In the Uberstein war, Comrade attacked, and Uberstein was quick to gather allies to help his cause. In this, Marquis attacked Roth in game so he could attack him RP. In my eyes, these wars are here to prove a point: The CNRP rules trump what Botha-moders and the like have to say.

The rules of the CNRP community, being the rules of a group of people that RP in fantasy RP on the same map with world-realistic stats, state that if an attacked nation refuses to recognize the invasion, they lose their nation to the attacker. Uberstein realized this and was quick to gather allies and rolled Comrade. The war was lost. In OOC terms, however, the war was won. Comrade proved a point: If you want to RP in CNRP canon, you must follow our rules.

Yes, I realize there is a fact that you can't make someone RP something they don't want to RP. They don't have to RP the defeat of their nation. They can be completely free of it, but not in CNRP canon. Respect our rules. If you don't like it, make another successful CNRP offshoot. As far as I am concerned, CNRP is just an offshoot of what originally and beautifully happened on the cybernations roleplay forums, it's a completely different game from what the older folks started to play. It changes, it evolves. Evolve with it or go back to your old roleplaying.

I have no problem with people roleplaying to in-game stats. However, I like the freedom that CNRP rules gives, and a bunch of other people like it too. Some just like to write with no constraints and let their imagination run free.

Now, in this Marquis war, something else is being proven. Botha-mode for CNRP is not going to work, especially when one is a controversial nation such as Rothenberg. IG Alliances prevent RP from taking place, where Roth can just say, "Millions of troops from my alliance of Nordreich come down on your nation." Nordreich does not exist in CNRP, and it never has, unless Martens brought it in. While Botha-mode says no RP methods can be brought into the war, it says nothing about IG methods going into an RP war.

So now what we have is a low-strength nation with barely any RP ties to other nations that is invincible and shooting it's mouth off because it is.

Does the IG community care about our RP? No. Is Nordreich going to say, "You know, it's an RP conflict, let them work it out"? No, we will see that one of our members is being attacked for a stupid reason, and move to defend him. All the while, Marquis is getting beat up by a canonically invisible force that none of the CNRP community can do nothing about.

It's kind of like wanting a one on one fight with someone, but they say, "To make it even more fair, lets go into this room." Inside the room is all their friends with guns and baseball bats.

[king of cochin]

I guess the only solution to this conundrum would be to set a rule by which nations attempting to RP in Botha mode would not try to claim IG Alliance benefits like rothenberg just did.

It should be purely one-on-one with regards to IG translation of RP events.

This way the strict IG guys wont be able to claim the absolute immunity from actions they enjoy now.

If you want to RP strictly according to your in game stuff, then you should be willing to not your let your in game alliance affect your RP effects either. This would wean out the hypocrisy factor.

[Stefano Palmieri]

Does the IG community care about our RP? No. Is Nordreich going to say, "You know, it's an RP conflict, let them work it out"? No, we will see that one of our members is being attacked for a stupid reason, and move to defend him. All the while, Marquis is getting beat up by a canonically invisible force that none of the CNRP community can do nothing about.

I agree wholy with you.

But I have made a way around the invisible forces. One of the people attacking me IG turns out to be an amature RPer (in the sense he dabbles with it in the G-rRP Forum) and has agreed to RP a rebel force, to represent whats going on IG.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Marquis Chris 1

[Botha]

Unfortunately, these two types of people have now come to inhabit CNRP, and they have become like Capitalism and Communism, they cannot co-exist.

But the fact is they can and do co-exist. There will always be nations regardless what sort of 'canon' is established that will continue to RP with us.

As for king of cochin's suggestion, as much as I would agree to this as being a perfect solution, reality is no sane alliance would ever let their members take part - because no alliance is going to allow its investment (i.e. nation-building aid) go down the toilet all due to a war for RP sake.

From reading many of your comments, it appears to me that the issue here is not so much Botha Mode itself - but rather the manner of how someone in particular is RPing in Botha Mode.

[king of cochin]

But the fact is they can and do co-exist. There will always be nations regardless what sort of 'canon' is established that will continue to RP with us.

As for king of cochin's suggestion, as much as I would agree to this as being a perfect solution, reality is no sane alliance would ever let their members take part - because no alliance is going to allow its investment (i.e. nation-building aid) go down the toilet all due to a war for RP sake.

From reading many of your comments, it appears to me that the issue here is not so much Botha Mode itself - but rather the manner of how someone in particular is RPing in Botha Mode.

I know no alliance is insane enough to sanction wars for RP benefit and some nations hide under that knowledge from repercussions. In such a case how can any nation declare war against such a nation? Such a Catch 22 situation is unacceptable.

So essentially the issue is not Botha mode itself. The issue is Botha mode becoming an excuse for becoming unaccountable in their RPs. So I guess you too accept that there is a limit to the level of RP becoming absolutely based on In game conditions? At a point the IG condition must take backseat for RP common sense.

[Agostinho Neto]

Co-existing doesen't mean i have to be forced to roleplay with rules not even remotely related to what i am used to call realistic roleplay. Realistic doesen't mean with real world numbers, realistic means with mentally stable leaders who take decisions thinking about consequences and possible reactions which is the reason i have decided to stick with Botha's rules of responsible roleplay, because in CNRP there are only a few people who do responsible roleplay.

I don't think declaring war on a country "to prove you can declare war" is something a responsible leader would do, but being an IG war, it has my full recognition, and thus i am roleplaying it.

[Lynneth]

Co-existing doesen't mean i have to be forced to roleplay with rules not even remotely related to what i am used to call realistic roleplay. Realistic doesen't mean with real world numbers, realistic means with mentally stable leaders who take decisions thinking about consequences and possible reactions which is the reason i have decided to stick with Botha's rules of responsible roleplay, because in CNRP there are only a few people who do responsible roleplay.

I don't think declaring war on a country "to prove you can declare war" is something a responsible leader would do, but being an IG war, it has my full recognition, and thus i am roleplaying it.

Re: The bold stuff:

Actually, realistic roleplay would mean both. And I'm trying my best to do exactly that. Though I know I fail, due to being a mere 21 years old and having no experience in real politics.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Lynneth

[king of cochin]

Co-existing doesen't mean i have to be forced to roleplay with rules not even remotely related to what i am used to call realistic roleplay. Realistic doesen't mean with real world numbers, realistic means with mentally stable leaders who take decisions thinking about consequences and possible reactions which is the reason i have decided to stick with Botha's rules of responsible roleplay, because in CNRP there are only a few people who do responsible roleplay.

I don't think declaring war on a country "to prove you can declare war" is something a responsible leader would do, but being an IG war, it has my full recognition, and thus i am roleplaying it.

Point is, if you are an absolute stickler of Role playing being reflected in game, you should also be responsible enough to maintain game actions to reflect your role playing. Now Marquis Chris declared war on you in RP and IG. It is up to you to see to it that your alliance does not pound on Marquis Chris, as that would be something that cannot be reflected in RP. Are you willing to do that?

[Agostinho Neto]

Point is, if you are an absolute stickler of Role playing being reflected in game, you should also be responsible enough to maintain game actions to reflect your role playing. Now Marquis Chris declared war on you in RP and IG. It is up to you to see to it that your alliance does not pound on Marquis Chris, as that would be something that cannot be reflected in RP. Are you willing to do that?

No, because even if IG alliances are not recognized in the roleplay by the majority of players, i do recognize an existing "Nord" alliance backing Italy in case of war (Nordreich). I would have never roleplayed my extremist policies (RP) without the necessary (IG and RP) support.

[Botha]

It is up to you to see to it that your alliance does not pound on Marquis Chris, as that would be something that cannot be reflected in RP. Are you willing to do that?

It's not going to happen. As much as anyone with wishful thinking would like to see that happen, it's not.

Also word I have heard is Marquis Chris has a history (which I am unaware of) of previous rogue attacks - which is how this conflict is being viewed - on Nordlanders, so good luck with him getting leniancy from Junio's (and mine) alliance.

[Stefano Palmieri]

It's not going to happen. As much as anyone with wishful thinking would like to see that happen, it's not.

Also word I have heard is Marquis Chris has a history (which I am unaware of) of previous rogue attacks - which is how this conflict is being viewed - on Nordlanders, so good luck with him getting leniancy from Junio's (and mine) alliance.

This is the only time I have ever gone IG rogue. I did a rogue RP with the Dragon Empire a while ago, and thats it.

[Voodoo Nova]

No, because even if IG alliances are not recognized in the roleplay by the majority of players, i do recognize an existing "Nord" alliance backing Italy in case of war (Nordreich). I would have never roleplayed my extremist policies (RP) without the necessary (IG and RP) support.

If you have an imaginary alliance backing you, then so does everyone else. Alliances are not represented in RP, at all, ever. Period. They do not exist here.

[Botha]

This is the only time I have ever gone IG rogue. I did a rogue RP with the Dragon Empire a while ago, and thats it.

Some in NoR recognised your name - and they obviously don't care what goes on in RP. But like I said earlier, news to me.

[Agostinho Neto]

If you have an imaginary alliance backing you, then so does everyone else. Alliances are not represented in RP, at all, ever. Period. They do not exist here.

However, an attack on me is an attack on Nordreich. This is the reason why alliances exist. When real life nations do not like themself, they do not automatically declare war on each other.. it's the lack of realism that led me to stick with Botha's law of responsible roleplay. It is something i have always tried to emulate.

I know the reasons behind this declaration of war have been decided in the IRC channel, and i know the people are discussing it right there. Sorry, i don't want to be part of your IRC-Roleplay, i want to roleplay Cyber Nations.

[Markus Wilding]

How do you know this if you're not on #cnrp?

[Lynneth]

Alliances are now part of the RP?

Go home, Gentlemen, I've won. The MHA rules da house.

[Agostinho Neto]

How do you know this if you're not on #cnrp?

Because i was informed about what the people say in #cnrp about me, i don't really care about that, confirms my idea that Cyber Nations Role Play is influenced by the OOC irc chat.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Junio Borghese

[Botha]

No, because even if IG alliances are not recognized in the roleplay by the majority of players, i do recognize an existing "Nord" alliance backing Italy in case of war (Nordreich). I would have never roleplayed my extremist policies (RP) without the necessary (IG and RP) support.

If you have an imaginary alliance backing you, then so does everyone else. Alliances are not represented in RP, at all, ever. Period. They do not exist here.

Junio: Voodoo Nova makes a very excellent point here (my italics).

While I do make references to Nordreich in my RP, it is for situational 'colour' only - and never used as a means to maintain or buttress my RP power base against other nations.

[Stefano Palmieri]

Some in NoR recognised your name - and they obviously don't care what goes on in RP. But like I said earlier, news to me.

Fair Enough, may have me confused. Or If its a certain member, they need to learn how to drop a grudge.

[Centurius]

Co-existing doesen't mean i have to be forced to roleplay with rules not even remotely related to what i am used to call realistic roleplay. Realistic doesen't mean with real world numbers, realistic means with mentally stable leaders who take decisions thinking about consequences and possible reactions which is the reason i have decided to stick with Botha's rules of responsible roleplay, because in CNRP there are only a few people who do responsible roleplay.

I don't think declaring war on a country "to prove you can declare war" is something a responsible leader would do, but being an IG war, it has my full recognition, and thus i am roleplaying it.

The simple fact you hide behind your alliance and scream about it ICly with pride has given you the new absolute low in CNRP, no one has ever shown such cowardice. You have asked for this for a long time and when someone was willing to go to your rules, what do you do? Get in your Alliance. You want to fall within rules of responsible roleplay? Don't do things ICly then that cause the anger of others.

[Acca Dacca]

However, an attack on me is an attack on Nordreich. This is the reason why alliances exist. When real life nations do not like themself, they do not automatically declare war on each other.. it's the lack of realism that led me to stick with Botha's law of responsible roleplay. It is something i have always tried to emulate.

I know the reasons behind this declaration of war have been decided in the IRC channel, and i know the people are discussing it right there. Sorry, i don't want to be part of your IRC-Roleplay, i want to roleplay Cyber Nations.

Mr. Junio Borghese, Nordreich doesnt exist in our world. Your realism, is just as messed up as ours. You hide behind an alliance and when attacked for CNRP, you have them defend you rather than take it upon yourself to face the consequences. If you really wanted realism, you'd have fought this IG without them.

So much for IG = RP.

[Bacharth]

Yes, and his quick report that marquis had attacked him, doesn't do much to help his cause.