iamwalrus Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Congrats to our friends in SWF ! It is good to see the unity that has been formed. It may be hard for outsiders to understand, but like it has been said before; LSF and International as well as NEAT are all tied together with this bloc in one way or another. Hence, all the "leftist" alliances have been united. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 The SWF is a protectorate of the LSF and the SU is a protectorate of the INT. By this Pact, all active and announced Leftist alliances on Bob are now united, militarily, by treaty. How is that not unity? Is unity now optional? Because thats what this treaty is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taget Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Cyberworkers of the world unite. All you have to lose is your pixels. So when should we expect you guys to construct a wall in the middle of the The German Empire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velken Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I second this statement.Furthermore -- despite the fact that INT is not a signatory of Warsaw, the magic of the treaty web insures that we are directly or indirectly connected to all of its signatories. We are united in spirit and brotherhood, if not contractually. -Craig Well said Comrade Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Surely if the leftist of Bob were united, they would just all form into one alliance? So why not cut to the chase and all merge? Then you'll be united. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Matveyev Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Is unity now optional? Because thats what this treaty is. First NAPs were worthless, now ODPs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mongol-Swedes Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Surely if the leftist of Bob were united, they would just all form into one alliance?So why not cut to the chase and all merge? Then you'll be united. Take that formula with any other bloc/multi-lateral treaty and you'll get your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyphon88 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 First NAPs were worthless, now ODPs? Technically I think a ODP works better within the idealogical structures of an anarchist organisation (which LSF comes close to/is). In that the alliance is not coerced by a social contract via force of a binding agreement. So the strength of the ODP comes from social ties and organisation. TTK has some ODPs like this, they may 'only' be ODPs but they're a hell of alot of social convention behind it than you can find in some MDPs out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix von Agnu Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 First NAPs were worthless, now ODPs? ODPs aren't worthless, that isn't the point TBB was trying to make. Unity is a nice word, and its really misused with this treaty. You all like each other, that's cool. You wanted to sign a treaty with each other, that's cool too. This is in no way a Unity treaty though. Unity doesn't come around by signing a treaty, unity comes by saying "What one of us do, all of us do." An ODOAP does not say that, what it says is "If something happens, we're highly encouraged to do something, but if we don't, meh." If you want unity try making an MADP Bloc for leftists, then I'd be impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mongol-Swedes Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 ODPs aren't worthless, that isn't the point TBB was trying to make.Unity is a nice word, and its really misused with this treaty. You all like each other, that's cool. You wanted to sign a treaty with each other, that's cool too. This is in no way a Unity treaty though. Unity doesn't come around by signing a treaty, unity comes by saying "What one of us do, all of us do." An ODOAP does not say that, what it says is "If something happens, we're highly encouraged to do something, but if we don't, meh." If you want unity try making an MADP Bloc for leftists, then I'd be impressed. MADPs are inherently imperialistic and contrary to anti-authoritarian Leftism, which has been on the rise following Silent's fall into obscurity. If you don't understand, then don't worry about it. Scroll up and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I don't agree with Felix's definition of unity – for example most colour unity treaties are not militarily binding. But it does require full participation by those you are claiming to 'unify'. NOIR, OUT or UJA are unity treaties because they bind together almost everyone on their colours; ICE is not (any more) because several large Aqua alliances no longer support it. Without the two largest leftist alliances, you can't claim this to be unity. And yes, ODPs are useless, apart from their symbolic value. An ODP unity treaty is not worthless, but that's not really what you have here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix von Agnu Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I don't agree with Felix's definition of unity – for example most colour unity treaties are not militarily binding. But it does require full participation by those you are claiming to 'unify'. NOIR, OUT or UJA are unity treaties because they bind together almost everyone on their colours; ICE is not (any more) because several large Aqua alliances no longer support it. Without the two largest leftist alliances, you can't claim this to be unity.And yes, ODPs are useless, apart from their symbolic value. An ODP unity treaty is not worthless, but that's not really what you have here. I didn't really flesh out my definition of unity very well. It doesn't have to be an MADP or such, but having something optional doesn't really show unity. Color sphere unity treaties are a bit different, and I agree with how you said it. They should require participation. Anyways, this isn't unity, just another bloc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Terror Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I look forward to seeing more from SWF, SU and UCR in the future. As many have said you are somewhat unknown but what those people don't know is what a great community each of these alliances posses. Don't be shy and come over for chit chat sometime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tower IV Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 lol indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberstKrieger Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I believe NATO once took offence to a bloc thus named. However, I wish you all the best of luck. Leftists tend to make good allies. I respect you all for your determination. Move onward for what you believe is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroRemorse Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I am glad to see that the majority of people who came to our little thread have left some good and some informative comments. I am not going to bash anyone for saying its just a bloc or not unifying. I have more respect for others opinions to ever do that. As for our alliances being mostly unknown...well the thing is that its always the quiet and unknown alliances that can be the most dangerous hehehe Thank you all for giving us your support and comments. Please feel free to come to our forum. http://z10.invisionfree.com/UCR/index.php?act=idx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Well, to be honest... I admit that I did go out drinking, blacked out, and woke up the next morning to find myself spooning Nemhauser. I rose, found my pants, uttered a polite but feeble excuse (something about needing to feed my dog), and bolted for the door. The event makes us something, but I don't know if "buddies" is the right word. -Craig Yeah buddies is not the right word to describe that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnusTroy Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 ODPs aren't worthless, that isn't the point TBB was trying to make.Unity is a nice word, and its really misused with this treaty. You all like each other, that's cool. You wanted to sign a treaty with each other, that's cool too. This is in no way a Unity treaty though. Unity doesn't come around by signing a treaty, unity comes by saying "What one of us do, all of us do." An ODOAP does not say that, what it says is "If something happens, we're highly encouraged to do something, but if we don't, meh." If you want unity try making an MADP Bloc for leftists, then I'd be impressed. Although the Warsaw Pact is not a MADP yet, It doesn' mean the Warsaw Pact could not become something bigger in the future. The Warsaw Pact let the door open to leftist alliances to join in the bloc. We should think about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberstKrieger Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) Although the Warsaw Pact is not a MADP yet, It doesn' mean the Warsaw Pact could not become something bigger in the future. The Warsaw Pact let the door open to leftist alliances to join in the bloc. We should think about that. Not only that, but an Optional Defence Pact is just as powerful, if not more powerful, in the hands of good allies than a Mutual Aggression and Defence Pact in the hands of cowardly enemies. Both contain cancellation clauses, and their use is what truly dictates the power of the pact. And again, from what I've seen, leftist alliances are rather tenacious in their endeavours. Editted due to grammar. Edited November 11, 2009 by OberstKrieger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikita Gregarin Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) We all won't merge for the same reason the right and centrists won't merge, because despite all of us being communist, we are all a different branch of communism. While we all strive for the communist ideal, we all go about it differently. Therefore, intimate things such as alliance mergers of that magnitude would be difficult to implement successfully. I personally am very excited about "Warsaw 2.0" and unlike the original Warsaw Pact, I believe this one will be far less likely to fail. The signatory alliances have all come a long way since the original Warsaw Pact, and I think I can speak for us all when I say we have all learned alot. Therefore, this time around will, hopefully, be the last. Although the International and the Libertarian Socialist Federation did not join, much to our dismay, I believe the Warsaw Pact is a great step forward in preventing the further fracturing of the left. For those asking, yes, we plan to recruit more alliances as the turn up if they are willing. As far as the ODP unity is concerned, we have our reasons. Compromises had to be made to cater to the needs of the individual signatories to make the pact successful just like any other alliance bloc or treaty. Although, I am certain one day it will be a MDP, we are happy with what we can get for now. Spaseeba for all of those whom support this bloc, as for those who do not support it, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, but it is what it is and it's here to stay. As for building a wall through the German Empire, we're working on that Edited November 12, 2009 by Nikita Gregarin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnusTroy Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Not only that, but an Optional Defence Pact is just as powerful, if not more powerful, in the hands of good allies than a Mutual Aggression and Defence Pact in the hands of cowardly enemies.Both contain cancellation clauses, and their use is what truly dictates the power of the pact. And again, from what I've seen, leftist alliances are rather tenacious in their endeavours. Editted due to grammar. The Warsaw Pact took 2 months of negotiations my friend, No one could say leftists have a lack of tenacity in their endeavours. Lack of tenacity is due to personality, no matter political ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 NoR needs to put together an anti-Commie block. What do you think the DT-NV-NoR de facto bloc is? Wait, what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Take that formula with any other bloc/multi-lateral treaty and you'll get your answer. Yeah but you leftists do like to chant on about workers of the world being united. I mean, why not just get it over with and merge merge merge, you all have the same ideology, why remain in separate alliances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yeah but you leftists do like to chant on about workers of the world being united. I mean, why not just get it over with and merge merge merge, you all have the same ideology, why remain in separate alliances? Good question, i suspect personalities rather than ideology is to blame for the apparent lack of unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mongol-Swedes Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yeah but you leftists do like to chant on about workers of the world being united. I mean, why not just get it over with and merge merge merge, you all have the same ideology, why remain in separate alliances? No, we don't. Some of us have governments, with hierarchy and rigid process, while others are ruled directly by all members in a direct democracy. There is a lot more to this than you seem to notice. Why not stop by our forums and find out? You can start with the LSF, right in my sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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