Future of the Red Team

[Ogaden]

Name one person the New Pacific Order put on EZI. Do it.

Starfox101, Electron Sponge, half of the rest of Vox and the entire FAN alliance.

[Raider]

It's not Eternal if we stopped it

I believe the question was:

Name one person the New Pacific Order put on EZI. Do it.

The NPO has in the past sentenced nations to Eternal Zero Infrastructure. It is not an arguable point. It is fact.

[WorldConqueror]

Starfox101, Electron Sponge, half of the rest of Vox and the entire FAN alliance.

Heh, and I thought the posts you made while you were a Pacifican were misinformed. FAN was at war, not being EZI'd. Vox were continually attacked because they continually attacked us. We didn't practice EZI, we had ZI and enhanced ZI, where people were attacked until they stopped attacking and acting against us.

[King Death II]

enhanced ZI, where people were attacked until they stopped attacking and acting against us.

lol rewording something to make it seem different when it really isnt. Those old tricks arent gonna work any more, we've learned from our past mistakes.

[WorldConqueror]

lol rewording something to make it seem different when it really isnt. Those old tricks arent gonna work any more, we've learned from our past mistakes.

lol being an idiot. Its not rewording anything. EZI is keeping a nation at war regardless of what they do. If they stopped attacking us, we let them go. Do you understand the difference now?

[Ogaden]

Heh, and I thought the posts you made while you were a Pacifican were misinformed. FAN was at war, not being EZI'd. Vox were continually attacked because they continually attacked us. We didn't practice EZI, we had ZI and enhanced ZI, where people were attacked until they stopped attacking and acting against us.

I don't see how they were supposed to do that when FAN and Vox were offered no surrender terms, nor was any quarter to be given. I recall that against FAN in particular, any and all weapons and spy attacks were approved automatically, including use of nuclear weapons and otherwise banned spy ops.

The fact that the entire alliances were EZIed doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

The perpetual FAN war was one of the many reasons that convinced me to leave, and any decent member of NPO should be suitably ashamed of that particular black mark against Pacifica's honor.

And I say that as a guy who, for much of his early NPO career, hated FAN, due to their raids on me while my nation was barely a month old.

Edited November 12, 2009 by James Dahl

[WorldConqueror]

I don't see how they were supposed to do that when FAN and Vox were offered no surrender terms, nor was any quarter to be given. I recall that against FAN in particular, any and all weapons and spy attacks were approved automatically, including use of nuclear weapons and otherwise banned spy ops.

The fact that the entire alliances were EZIed doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

The perpetual FAN war was one of the many reasons that convinced me to leave, and any decent member of NPO should be suitably ashamed of that particular black mark against Pacifica's honor.

I'll go through this in order.

1. Plenty of Voxians left Vox and received peace, including founders. If they managed it, I'm sure others could have, if they wanted to.

2. Nukes were authorized against FAN, yes. Spy ops weren't. And spy ops always require MilCom authorisation, so I don't know what you mean by "otherwise banned spy ops", unless you mean they need authorisation.

3. Entire alliances weren't EZI'd. We were at war with them. It was EZI because we didn't say "Hey FAN, we are gunna blow up your nations until the 26th of April, then we will give you a kiss on the forehead and send you off into the world"? FAN refused to consider surrender. They wanted to fight on, we obliged.

4 It was perpetual because they made it so. In my view, our members should be proud that we had the determination, commitment and resources to vigorously defend ourselves and prosecute a war against an alliance whose stated intent was to bring us down. Ashamed? Hardly. FAN deserved the war, they have admitted that themselves.

[Ogaden]

I'll go through this in order.

1. Plenty of Voxians left Vox and received peace, including founders. If they managed it, I'm sure others could have, if they wanted to.

2. Nukes were authorized against FAN, yes. Spy ops weren't. And spy ops always require MilCom authorisation, so I don't know what you mean by "otherwise banned spy ops", unless you mean they need authorisation.

3. Entire alliances weren't EZI'd. We were at war with them. It was EZI because we didn't say "Hey FAN, we are gunna blow up your nations until the 26th of April, then we will give you a kiss on the forehead and send you off into the world"? FAN refused to consider surrender. They wanted to fight on, we obliged.

4 It was perpetual because they made it so. In my view, our members should be proud that we had the determination, commitment and resources to vigorously defend ourselves and prosecute a war against an alliance whose stated intent was to bring us down. Ashamed? Hardly. FAN deserved the war, they have admitted that themselves.

You can make excuses all you want, but it's just that, excuses. That's the problem, there's no willingness to address the mistakes that were made, other than as platitudes to placate the angry mob. It's weak and it's self-deluding.

Even the (now former) Emperor admitted that mistakes were made. Face the truth.

Edited November 12, 2009 by James Dahl

[KingEsus]

So what if they exclude the NPO? It is perfectly possible to have a strong red team while excluding the 95% that is the NPO. You don't need them. They're Pacifican scum and evil and I hate them so much. Why won't you just away and die? And as for all of you questioning the capable stewardship of the esteemed King Death II, mind you that in all my years I have never seen such an awe inspiring hero. I'm tempted to join them myself he's just that great.

Wow my sarcasm detection device just exploded.

NPO, CUJ, but i dunno... i see LBA doing okay too.

[WorldConqueror]

You can make excuses all you want, but it's just that, excuses. That's the problem, there's no willingness to address the mistakes that were made, other than as platitudes to placate the angry mob. It's weak and it's self-deluding.

Even the (now former) Emperor admitted that mistakes were made. Face the truth.

lol. You were arguing that FAN was EZI'd, and all that. I argued against that. Of course mistakes were made, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that. What I am not prepared to do is accept all the fallacies that you spout as the truth.

[Francesca]

I'll go through this in order.

1. Plenty of Voxians left Vox and received peace, including founders. If they managed it, I'm sure others could have, if they wanted to.

I stumbled across an old site called The Just Cause the other day (or something like that) in which I read all of the Voxian surrenders, or attempted surrenders. It seemed almost entirely randomised who was let go and who was not. Voxian founders certainly weren't let go, and you had to prove that you weren't one of the main members of the revolution in order to be let go. Often, people who were barely involved were told that they'd been too vocal, and were not released, so they rerolled. Many attempted surrenders were entirely ignored. Some were just laughed at. Then, sometimes people would be let go, but that seemed to me entirely randomised.

This isn't !@#$%^&* or Voxian propaganda. I'm pretty unbiased as it is, these days. These are my conclusions having gone and read the evidence, the original source, for myself. I don't hate Pacifica for what they did, I've come to accept much of your history and I understand your viewpoint, but you need to be consistent and address history as it really was.

3. Entire alliances weren't EZI'd. We were at war with them. It was EZI because we didn't say "Hey FAN, we are gunna blow up your nations until the 26th of April, then we will give you a kiss on the forehead and send you off into the world"? FAN refused to consider surrender. They wanted to fight on, we obliged.

If FAN members rerolled and got caught, they'd be in severe trouble, them and their alliance. This included the threat of ZI. I know this because I knew several undercover FAN members myself during those times, they were Vox's greatest allies, and I know what they went through.

4 It was perpetual because they made it so. In my view, our members should be proud that we had the determination, commitment and resources to vigorously defend ourselves and prosecute a war against an alliance whose stated intent was to bring us down. Ashamed? Hardly. FAN deserved the war, they have admitted that themselves.

I actually agree with you here. The continuation of the war was not entirely down to NPO, they are often demonised for it but it's just not true. But Pacificans, proud to have had the determination to stomp an alliance into the ground for a year? When Pacificans have been ZIed for a year and refused to give up, retaining passion and morale and refusing to let superior forces crush the spirit from their alliance, then you can talk to me about determination and commitment.

[Raider]

Heh, and I thought the posts you made while you were a Pacifican were misinformed. FAN was at war, not being EZI'd. Vox were continually attacked because they continually attacked us. We didn't practice EZI, we had ZI and enhanced ZI, where people were attacked until they stopped attacking and acting against us.

Care to explain the following to me then?:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...c=21476&hl=

Today is the last day of April, and the Imperial Military Analysts have scribed the name of every GATO nation in peace mode. On May 3rd, they shall check their list and any nation still in peace mode shall only know peace or death.

Their nations shall become a prison, cut off from the world of trade, relations, and life. No system shall harbor them under penalty of war. No aid shall be given under penalty of death. Long after the Brown Rebellion is put down, those that refused to fight will continue to struggle in this world.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...c=28756&hl=

3. Those nations in peace mode will continue to be in a state of war until OneVision says otherwise.

[Bob Janova]

Those are PZI, not EZI, at least in those announcements (though we know Hegemony chased rerolls when they found them, that was never actually the case there because GATO jumped when One Vision told them to). Several individuals were put on EZI though, even if they were later taken off again. Lord Swampy is another one, or Seerow.

We didn't practice EZI, we had ZI and enhanced ZI, where people were attacked until they stopped attacking and acting against us.

This is an OOC forum, you don't have to play your propaganda word games here. Attacking someone until you decide they're no longer 'acting against you' (and we've all seen how easily that can be claimed) is 'permanent until the attacker decides otherwise', and doing that against people is basically the textbook definition of EZI.

[flak attack]

Those are PZI, not EZI, at least in those announcements (though we know Hegemony chased rerolls when they found them, that was never actually the case there because GATO jumped when One Vision told them to). Several individuals were put on EZI though, even if they were later taken off again. Lord Swampy is another one, or Seerow.

This is an OOC forum, you don't have to play your propaganda word games here. Attacking someone until you decide they're no longer 'acting against you' (and we've all seen how easily that can be claimed) is 'permanent until the attacker decides otherwise', and doing that against people is basically the textbook definition of EZI.

Swampy was on Valhalla's list, not NPO's.

[Lord of Destruction]

Ah, yes... semantics...... a word that is becoming increasingly familiar to me of late... it is the insult of a person who has nothing left in the quiver, no sufficient counter-rebuttal..... the retort of the pathetic and weak-minded, the fool and the one who is determined not to listen to reason. I detest the word, outside of a very strict context.

Ah, yes... the ever so dismissive and pseudo-elitist tone I was waiting for. It is the tone of one who can turn to nothing else. Instead of discussing the actual topic, they decide to demean the person they are debating with.

Have fun believing that you're always correct, Fran.

[Vilien]

Ah, yes... the ever so dismissive and pseudo-elitist tone I was waiting for. It is the tone of one who can turn to nothing else. Instead of discussing the actual topic, they decide to demean the person they are debating with.

Have fun believing that you're always correct, Fran.

I'm still waiting for her to counter my argument.

[Lord of Destruction]

I'm still waiting for her to counter my argument.

She is quite obviously a lizard, Vilien. There is no way that she isn't.

Wait no, lizards are awesome. She's not a lizard.

[Francesca]

I'm still waiting for her to counter my argument.

Oh dear.... debate with Vilien on ethics...... I was going to try and avoid this. However did I get myself into it AGAIN???

Francesca, you asserted that morality was an immutable subject, with unalterable laws. You fail to realize that morality is an inherently subjective area, and morals are more of a personal guidebook than any kind of greater social law.

I fail to realise what? I'm perfectly aware of your viewpoint, I merely fail to recognise the validity of it, because that is all it is - a viewpoint - and by virtue of being your viewpoint it does not necessarily have credibility or validity.

Moreover, your continued assertion in the permanence and solidity of moral thought can be easily summed up in the lizard analogy.

I never recall asserting any such thing, but frankly I am too lazy to read through all my posts to check and will rectify the situation by stating that I do indeed believe in objective and unchanging ethics. Because people and their attitudes change all the time, this would be impossible without the existence of an external deity, an utterly righteous deity, a vast infinite-personal deity, in whom we find all hope, all meaning, and all truth. Goodness is the reflection of the character of this deity. This deity is constant and unchanging, and thus must be outside of the universe as we know it and be without a beginning or end (how can love itself have a beginning or end?)

<pointless statistics go here>

Prove to me that you are a lizard.

Bird of Passage!!???? Where are you!!!!! I've been discovered!! I thought my reptilian nature was my best kept secret! However will I live this down?

Uhm.... on a more serious note (if one can really take this argument seriously) I fail to see how all those statistics you calculated and typed out so carefully are the least bit relevant or interesting.

Ah, yes... the ever so dismissive and pseudo-elitist tone I was waiting for. It is the tone of one who can turn to nothing else. Instead of discussing the actual topic, they decide to demean the person they are debating with.

Have fun believing that you're always correct, Fran.

I see you ignored the rest of my post which rebutted everything you had to say. Instead of discussing the actual topic, you've decided to demean the person you are debating with. Have fun believing that you're always correct, LoD.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Francesca

[Trakovio]

New Pacific Order