Quite Possibly an Endorsement

[Mathias]

how does Stickmen feel now that they are 1 vote away from losing their "10 minutes of fame"

Yeah, because as soon as they lose that senate seat, it's back to irrelevancy for them!

-Bama

[Gaeta]

Yeah, because as soon as they lose that senate seat, it's back to irrelevancy for them!

-Bama

If only it were that easy

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

how does Stickmen feel now that they are 1 vote away from losing their "10 minutes of fame"

So long as we're having fun, right?

[spearo]

OK, this is just plain wrong. Possibly your bloc mates haven't been filling you in; you weren't in the channel when these discussions happened.

Jul 21 10:41:31 <Haf> Then M*A*S*H came to Purple, to be with their Legion allies. For various reasons, they didn't want to join Poseidon, but were much, much too large for Pegasus.

Jul 21 10:43:05 <Haf> So we created a treaty for them. Originally it was a NAP, now it's an ODP. Basically they promise to respect the PEACE senate rotation system, and in return they get access to the PEACE forums on the Purple Unity boards and an ODP with all of Poseidon.

Jul 21 10:43:29 <Haf> There have been moves in the past few months to open up the senate structure a bit.

Jul 21 10:43:42 <Haf> M*A*S*H had a senator when Legion decided to give up their spot one month for them.

Jul 21 10:44:09 <Haf> However, the treaty as currently written assigns senate seats at the sole discretion of the Poseidon structure.

Jul 21 10:45:37 <Haf> Speaking for myself personally, I wouldn't mind seeing that change, but I know a lot of the people in the existing PEACE system are used to the way things have been since the blocs were started.

That's where I first hinted at the fact that I was pushing for PEACE Economic signatories to be given access to the Senate.

Aug 04 11:31:27 <Haflinger> Well you guys don't know this, because it hasn't been announced yet, but there's been a slight revision in our senate arrangement.

Aug 04 11:31:28 <Haflinger> heh.

Aug 04 11:31:56 <Haflinger> it should be announced very soon, we were just discussing who gets to make the post.

Aug 04 11:32:12 <NobodyExpects> 2. PEACE only signatories shall be given a spot in the senate rotation upon request on the Purple Unity forums, provided that they have spent 6 months in PEACE and have a minimum of 50 purple nations and 60% of their alliance on purple.

Aug 04 11:32:22 <NobodyExpects> Its gonna be based around that wording or similar

Aug 04 11:33:08 <Iosif[iFOK|Gov]> Interesting

Aug 04 11:33:13 <Haflinger> Now keep in mind that will be going by the individual alliance.

Aug 04 11:33:38 <Iosif[iFOK|Gov]> Naturally

Aug 04 11:33:44 <Haflinger> So if iFOK has 70 purple members, but SLCB only has 40, then iFOK is in, SLCB's not. etc.

Aug 04 11:33:57 <Haflinger> I haven't looked at your stats btw, I'm just making up numbers.

Aug 04 11:34:51 <Haflinger> The immediate beneficiaries of the change in policy will be M*A*S*H and SNAFU I believe.

I was telling Stickmen this early in hopes of encouraging them to apply. They never did. But like I said, FCO would now qualify by member count.

Ok so after Stickmen had already come to PEACE for talks about becoming members of the Bloc you come back with a revision in the treaty that would prevented iFOK and SLCB from having the ability to have a senator in the rotation and FCO barely meeting the criteria? That's really encouraging.

Also before you say we were planning this before talks with Stickmen:

Oh really?

Jul 21 10:27:18 <ASA[sLCB]> The primary reason we decided to call another meeting was because we would like to inform you all that we have made our final decision

Jul 21 10:27:29 <ASA[sLCB]> And we will be moving to Purple

Jul 21 10:27:50 <Haf> In that case, I strongly suggest getting to know us better.

Jul 21 10:28:00 <queenhailee[Olympus]> Congratulations. Purple is an awesome place

Jul 21 10:28:35 <ligolski|Hydra|Trium> better get your diplomats around!

Jul 21 10:34:58 <King_Biscuit|Invicta> if i may interject, i think anoth worry is the isue of PEACE, if it hasn't come up yet

Jul 21 10:35:11 <ASA[sLCB]> But so far it has a lot of support, and I don't see why there would be any objection from within Stickmen

Jul 21 10:35:25 <ASA[sLCB]> The idea being that Stickmen (as individual alliances) join PEACE

Jul 21 10:35:29 <ASA[sLCB]> Assuming you'd allow us to do so

Jul 21 10:49:40 <Buffalo[Olympus]> As I personally stated on the wf..you all will be welcomed by Olympus, our concerns much like the rest of purple centered on the "our friends are bigger than yours" and the epeen waving. If we can work out the senate issues which appears to have happened I don't anticipate any issues with welcoming you in.

Jul 21 10:50:24 <ASA[sLCB]> Is there a possibility that we might be able to get a Stickmen senator into that rotation?

Jul 21 10:50:39 <Haf> That's a discussion we've been having with SNAFU actually.

Jul 21 10:50:42 <arexes[iFOK]> if we can get a senate seat fine, but it's not a big deal

[Alterego]

Depends what you wanted to achieve by it. If you want to get destroyed then yes, it is a pretty good way of going about it.

iFOK on the other hand, wish to destabilize purplol, break up PEACE and start a war with purple, 'because they can', 'because they don't like the current purple alliances', whichever takes your fancy. The methods currently being used seem to be creating tension and drama fairly well, they obviously don't want to attack with no CB themselves, so it's all dancing until then. Or until they can get purple to attack them before they get a legitimate CB. Either way, there arn't all that many better methods to achieve the current aims I don't imagine. They're already seriously pissing people off, and have managed to earn a demolition of Invicta's Vice President, managed to obtain a senate seat twice I do believe, and generally make purplol bawww. I'd say they're doing pretty well and should probably give themselves a pat on the back for their efforts thus far.

It makes me laugh to see so many from the Karma side who think the kind of behavior that was once attributed to Hegemony is now acceptable and to be encouraged further because its someone from the Karma side is doing it. Im surprised to see it coming from Citadel though.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Alterego

[terveis]

Fair play to them, what's the need for this provocative behaviour though? By all means go get a senate seat, but why are they making such a big deal out of this?

Short answer, they are just having fun. If Purple alliances dont like it, they should just ignore it. Its not like they have any change of turning the OWF-crew to their side anyway...

[Haflinger]

Ok so after Stickmen had already come to PEACE for talks about becoming members of the Bloc you come back with a revision in the treaty that would prevented iFOK and SLCB from having the ability to have a senator in the rotation and FCO barely meeting the criteria? That's really encouraging.

Actually, the then-proposed changes were already under way well before they ever came to talk to us. Like I said, they weren't aimed at Stickmen, but rather SNAFU and M*A*S*H. However when we talked to them, I told them about the changes that did in fact happen well before they happened.

Had they wanted different changes, I'm sure they could have tried negotiating for them. That however sounds like diplomatic work, doesn't it?

You should also check the timestamps on those messages more carefully. Arexes says he doesn't want a senate seat literally five minutes after I tell him some of us are trying to get changes put through to the rules on the rotation.

Timeline on that BTW: it started with a proposal from Stetson in June.

In any case. iFOK has 67 nations. If they wanted to, they could easily get 50 purple nations. The fact that currently iFOK only has 31, which doesn't even meet the minimum threshold for PEACE membership (60% - 31 of 67 is 46%), is kindof a sign of their intense commitment to the sphere.

[Alterego]

Short answer, they are just having fun. If Purple alliances dont like it, they should just ignore it. Its not like they have any change of turning the OWF-crew to their side anyway...

Likewise the way the rest of the world is ignoring these incidents or applauding them has not gone unnoticed. When the political situation changes and it will change people will come knocking at Purple doors asking to be friends, when that day comes the treatment we have been getting from much of the wider world will not be forgotten and will help in the decision making process.

[Tromp]

We tried that, but FOK said no.

Erm... What?

[Tromp]

It makes me laugh to see so many from the Karma side who think the kind of behavior that was once attributed to Hegemony is now acceptable and to be encouraged further because its someone from the Karma side is doing it. Im surprised to see it coming from Citadel though.

Hah, the "You're as bad as us" argument again.

It doesn't even apply, but I got a good laugh out of it.

[Alterego]

Hah, the "You're as bad as us" argument again.

It doesn't even apply, but I got a good laugh out of it.

The old laugh it off defense, how weak.

[Tromp]

The old laugh it off defense, how weak.

I was being dead serious about me laughing.

[terveis]

It makes me laugh to see so many from the Karma side who think the kind of behavior that was once attributed to Hegemony is now acceptable and to be encouraged further because its someone from the Karma side is doing it. Im surprised to see it coming from Citadel though.

Many members from Citadel doing the encouraging? 10? 20?

[spearo]

Actually, the then-proposed...

Regardless of when the proposals for change began and when Stickmen was told about the intent to change them you still made the changes which at that time would have realisticly locked any Stickmen alliance out of being a part of the senate rotation. Also how would you propose we negotiated the content of a treaty we were not a part of? (If Stickmen alliances were even at all aware of what the exact changes you planned to make were.)

Also thanks for telling us all the log you post on page 5 and page 21 were of the same conversation

In any case. iFOK has 67 nations. If they wanted to, they could easily get 50 purple nations. The fact that currently iFOK only has 31, which doesn't even meet the minimum threshold for PEACE membership (60% - 31 of 67 is 46%), is kindof a sign of their intense commitment to the sphere.

I wonder how many of the 36 are those who are locked in to trade circles in other spheres and looking at your resources haflinger I'm sure you could understand there relunctancy to leave them. On top of that whats the great rush for them to get onto purple? The rest of purple is more then willing to do our voting for us

Edited October 24, 2009 by spearo

[kriekfreak]

Actually, the then-proposed changes were already under way well before they ever came to talk to us. Like I said, they weren't aimed at Stickmen, but rather SNAFU and M*A*S*H. However when we talked to them, I told them about the changes that did in fact happen well before they happened.

Had they wanted different changes, I'm sure they could have tried negotiating for them. That however sounds like diplomatic work, doesn't it?

You should also check the timestamps on those messages more carefully. Arexes says he doesn't want a senate seat literally five minutes after I tell him some of us are trying to get changes put through to the rules on the rotation.

Timeline on that BTW: it started with a proposal from Stetson in June.

In any case. iFOK has 67 nations. If they wanted to, they could easily get 50 purple nations. The fact that currently iFOK only has 31, which doesn't even meet the minimum threshold for PEACE membership (60% - 31 of 67 is 46%), is kindof a sign of their intense commitment to the sphere.

I said it wasn't a big deal, not that we didn't want it. Also iFOK have just 'absorbed' quite a few members of Orion so it is pretty logical we have quite a few orange nations now. You are talking from your behind.

[Haflinger]

Erm... What?

Well... Ask Jonte. At least that's what he said.

Also how would you propose we negotiated the content of a treaty we were not a part of?

The same way I do. "If you make these changes, I will be happy to go to my alliance leadership and do my best to persuade them to sign it." That's kindof how diplomacy works.

Actually honestly it's easier to negotiate changes to a treaty you haven't even signed yet. If people want your support, they'll make compromises in order to get it. That's how you find out what they think of you.

[Jingoist]

The same way I do. "If you make these changes, I will be happy to go to my alliance leadership and do my best to persuade them to sign it." That's kindof how diplomacy works.

Actually honestly it's easier to negotiate changes to a treaty you haven't even signed yet. If people want your support, they'll make compromises in order to get it. That's how you find out what they think of you.

a very clever and backhanded way of saying that you wouldn't have made changes for us. you never wanted our support or our participation or our membership in your precious unity unless it meant that you could control us and what we do. that is a fact.

[erikz]

The same way I do. "If you make these changes, I will be happy to go to my alliance leadership and do my best to persuade them to sign it." That's kindof how diplomacy works.

Actually honestly it's easier to negotiate changes to a treaty you haven't even signed yet. If people want your support, they'll make compromises in order to get it. That's how you find out what they think of you.

Well Haf, you know that forcing changes in an existing bloc-treaty, signed by a number of other alliances already, is quite hard. Normally, the existing signatories got all their wishes edited in the treaty and wouldn't let a new alliance change the whole bloc set-up.

If someone we like wanted to join LEO but first wanted us to change the treaty from lets say the current MDoAP to a MADP, then what is the use of that bloc treaty anyway? Then it would be better to disband the current bloc, draft a new treaty and start from 0 all over again.

[Haflinger]

a very clever and backhanded way of saying that you wouldn't have made changes for us. you never wanted our support or our participation or our membership in your precious unity unless it meant that you could control us and what we do. that is a fact.

Actually, this is the exact opposite of the truth.

Go on and ask the other Purple Unity alliances how much we try to control them. For example, go ask M*A*S*H. You guys fought alongside them in the recent war, so you should have some kind of relationship there still, right?

Your lack of negotiation skills are not our problem. But it'd be nice if you took off the blinders for a moment and realize that you're talking to alliances that are pretty independent-minded.

Well Haf, you know that forcing changes in an existing bloc-treaty, signed by a number of other alliances already, is quite hard. Normally, the existing signatories got all their wishes edited in the treaty and wouldn't let a new alliance change the whole bloc set-up.

It can be.

The PEACE Economic treaty was originally created for M*A*S*H as a NAP. As time went on, it grew in members, and we upgraded it to an ODP, which required consent from everyone in both Poseidon and the economic treaty. Then we amended it to include senate access, which required the same consent, from quite a few alliances. So the implication that it could not have been further amended here is, well, rather contrary to historical precedent, especially since we told them we were in the process of amending it before it actually happened. If they'd had changes they wanted to make to it before joining, obviously that's the time to propose them.

If someone we like wanted to join LEO but first wanted us to change the treaty from lets say the current MDoAP to a MADP, then what is the use of that bloc treaty anyway? Then it would be better to disband the current bloc, draft a new treaty and start from 0 all over again.

That's one approach, sure. If they'd wanted to do that, they could have proposed it.

As it was, Stetson proposed changes be made to the purple unity senate system. The original changes he proposed weren't what got in, but actually in reality SNAFU probably got more than what he originally asked for. But that's how you handle stuff like this - negotiation.

[Shovel]

We tried that, but FOK said no.

Nothing like talking out your backside. Why on earth would you ask FOK if Stickmen would have a duel with you? And when did you?

If you really wanted to duel us I am sure we would entertain the idea.

[Haflinger]

Nothing like talking out your backside. Why on earth would you ask FOK if Stickmen would have a duel with you? And when did you?

If you really wanted to duel us I am sure we would entertain the idea.

Like I told FOK, ask Jonte.

[Shovel]

Like I told FOK, ask Jonte.

You're the one making the statement, you find the facts.

[Haflinger]

You're the one making the statement, you find the facts.

You've already misrepresented what I said here. We didn't ask FOK anything. Jonte is in possession of more of the facts than I am; go to the source.

[porksaber]

Frankly, FCO struck me as making up the majority of the better parts of Stickmen. More active, more intelligent. Liked you guys generally.

whereas SLCB and iFOK are generally less active, and don't get 23 pages of responses out of you by refuting your logically sound arguments, amirite?

you continue to amaze me with these brilliant observations.

[Shovel]

You've already misrepresented what I said here. We didn't ask FOK anything. Jonte is in possession of more of the facts than I am; go to the source.

Well run along and find the facts, otherwise it'll be just the usual rubbish coming from you.