Quite Possibly an Endorsement

[Johnny Apocalypse]

No one owns a sphere, no one has to play by the colour blocs' rules, if they don't want to. These people obviously don't want to, and since the senate is democratically elected, they decided to democratically put one of their guys into the senate.

Fair play to them, what's the need for this provocative behaviour though? By all means go get a senate seat, but why are they making such a big deal out of this?

[Haflinger]

You clearly miss the point. Prior to that, PEACE alliances were obligated to vote for Poseidon senators. There would have be NO chance, not just difficult, for you or any of us to honor the treaty and still get a senate seat.

What's more, I told them about this change to the treaty when it was just a proposed change which I was backing, at the time largely because I wanted alliances like SNAFU and M*A*S*H to get into the rotation without people having to sit out.

Incidentally, FCO currently has 56 purple nations. If they had applied to PEACE Economic, and been accepted, they would have qualified for senate rotation like the rest of us. And yes, they could have supported Arexes as their senator if they had chosen to do so, there's already established precedent allowing members to appoint senators from other alliances.

but you damn sure wish you could.

No, we don't. Most of the older leaders know what it is like to be on a sphere where people are forced to obey. Our objection to you is largely based on your borrowing of the tactics of those old times, which were formerly used against us when noWedge had the backing of NPO, GOONS and \m/.

Don't kid yourself. Aqua's fourth place is only 24 votes behind your first. We break 2,200 votes with just our top three and 3,000 with our top 5. It's part of the benefit of a free senate, but you wouldn't understand that.

You might also note that Aqua has a few more nations than Purple. Like... roughly twice as many nations. And you've got quite a bit less than twice as many votes there (we're over 1,800 votes in our top 4 now). So no, those numbers actually suggest your nations are less active in senate voting than ours.

It attracts more small alliances since they don't have to use military/political standing as a guideline on who to vote for.

Heh, are you kidding me?

Purple has more small alliances than pretty much any of the spheres outside of Blue and Black. Aqua's nation number advantage is based on the large number of large alliances that are resident there.

Our big four alliances - Legion, UPN, Invicta, M*A*S*H - combine for 955 nations. MHA and RoK are 932 nations. There are plenty more alliances on Aqua that are comparable in size to UPN and Invicta.

This is one of the reasons why Purple unity is so remarkable, because it involves a ton of alliances that quite frankly the Stickmen have never heard of but which the rest of us know and talk to.

Which results in ludicrous proposals like the one they made to get government members from every single Purple unity alliance online at the same time at a time that was convenient for their governments to be available. For the record, that list currently is:

AOD Brigade

Blue Turtle Alliance

Boards Alliance of Protectorate States

Defensive Mutually-Friendly Alliance

Hydra

Invicta

M*A*S*H

North American Confederacy

Olympus

Order of the Four Leaf Clover

Paladins of Freedom

SNAFU

The Brotherhood

The Legion

United Purple Nations

Valhalla

Vires Noctu

And that's not even mentioning all the other small alliances on Purple who aren't directly involved in Purple unity but are a part of the Purple community nevertheless, like OMFG and Avalon, who they clearly do not know either.

(Personally i am still sad that the whole Purple-stickmen love didnt work out, i liked many of the purple leaders i met when stickmen moved to purple9

Frankly, FCO struck me as making up the majority of the better parts of Stickmen. More active, more intelligent. Liked you guys generally.

But oh well, we've got what we have now instead.

Theres only one way to settle this: THUNDERDOME!

Two men enter, one man leave!

I think both sides should just select 100 warriors (same size) and pit them against eachother and the losing side should move out of purple. :|

We tried that, but FOK said no.

Except, you know, there was no government impersonating, only Haflinger making ignorant assumptions.

Which I've already stated - over two weeks ago - were probably incorrect. Doh! Sorry to interfere with your assertions by producing facts yet again.

Impersonating alliance government is an act of war.

I'm becoming inclined to accept Stickmen's claims that they didn't mean to do so, however.

I didn't say Purple Unity as a whole was going to war. However, if Invicta went to war I believe there's this thing called the "treaty web" that would drag most of purple in.

Not if we went aggressively. UPN would be required to go in with us, per Purple Haze, and BAPS would be required to defend us against counterattacks, per TODDY. Poseidon is non-chaining.

[Lord Philip]

Firstly John thanks for keeping it civil, this is a good discussion and I'm as happy to share my opinion as hear other's, esp. when they're articulate and present a different angle.

How can you claim otherwise? My claim that the majority of purple is happy with the senate has about as much evidence as your claim that they aren't happy with it. If you want to state my claims have no certainty, prove them wrong with some evidence, I'm interested in this history of which you speak. Enlighten me. It's all well and good having your allies back you up on whatever you do, but there are some of us who don't know the full situation and aren't going to hop on the bandwagon and rally behind the side which is more popular/powerful.

Firstly I've mentioned the history briefly in my previous response to wildthing, hope it helps, any questions please ask.

Okay on the certainty front I'm not being confrontational about it, which I'm sure you spotted, I simply don't believe it to be true. As for evidence I would only point to the total number of votes cast for "unofficial" candidates despite the pressure some of the PEACE alliances are applying on their rank and file to vote for "X", along with the lack of comment from the same rank and file in threads like this.

Okay, I apologise no demand is being made, I phrased myself wrong there.

What's the problem with actually attempting to make diplomatic links with PEACE in order to get a senate seat? As far as I know it's just economic co-operation, team unity and optional defense. What seems to be the problem? I know they made you feel unwelcome, but did you attempt to sway them, or did you just go "lol screw it, let's make their lives hell" no offense or anything, but threads like this seem to suggest previous provocative actions on your behalf.

I do recall a selection of screenshot dumps of iFOK saying some rather unpleasant things about Purple before making their move there. That might have something to do with them not being so happy with your presence.

No prob mate.

Let me just briefly mention my own situation, I'm a long term purple nation who has previously been in Invicta, Valhalla and United Purple Nations. I have no connection with the stickmen other than supporting their efforts for a free vote. I was briefly a purple senator but as I wasn't an official candidate I became a target for personal attacks and was effectively hounded out of UPN by members of Invicta government all under the name of PEACE, surprising because I'm a big donor.

As I know it SLCB and iFOK did make approaches both before and after joining purple but these were repeatedly rejected. Given the expressed nature of PEACE I believe this to have been unfair at best, and provocative at worst. Most worryingly it reminds me of some very grim days when the bulk of purple were fearful of the old style Valhalla under NoW, however those who suffered the grimness are now in danger of replicating it.

It's true that the stickmen like to play "wildcards", and PEACE members react differently to this, however the problem is that the drama queens make the most noise and so as a whole PEACE is held back from seriously addressing the situation because some of the government involved are predicting the end of the world.

[SpoiL]

No one owns a sphere, no one has to play by the colour blocs' rules, if they don't want to. These people obviously don't want to, and since the senate is democratically elected, they decided to democratically put one of their guys into the senate.

This is far from that. They could do that without goading purple. Their intent to disrupt the sphere they moved to and their disregard for those on the sphere were both clear when the thread exposed private forum discussion. They are obviously trying to incite a response from purple, or at least puff their own big brothers chests as the big boys on Purple.

Edited October 24, 2009 by SpoiL

[astronaut jones]

Fair play to them, what's the need for this provocative behaviour though? By all means go get a senate seat, but why are they making such a big deal out of this?

because they can.

[ddog241]

Vote Michiel de Ruyter for purple senate. put this in your sig if your down.

[astronaut jones]

This is far from that. Their intent to disrupt the sphere they moved to and their disregard for those on the sphere were both clear when the thread exposed private forum discussion. They are obviously trying to goad a response from purple, or at least puff their own big brothers chests as the big boys on Purple.

Which I have said numerous times already, I'm not disagreeing with you at all there. The only difference is, there's really NOTHING to get worked up about, it's a senate seat, unless they do something that is legitimately provocative, and a legitimate reason for war, there is absolutely nothing to this. Period. If the other alliances on purple have a problem with this, their threats are only making them laugh, because they know nothing is ever going to come of this. It's a joke to them, and when an alliance/bloc doesn't care about making themselves look bad, they often manage to make others look a hell of a lot worse through their overreactions.

There are two options here.. either ignore it and accept the fact that they're going to be a nuisance, but one that can't and won't do any lasting damage, or they can attempt to do as the stickmen have and take back the last senate seat through mass spamming/solicitation.

The option they've chosen though, is to make threats, puff out their chests, and generally overreact to a situation that's pretty damn funny.

Right now, the other alliances on purple are trying to get rid of their little roach problem by burning down their own houses. I mean, come on.. lighten up a little, don't go to such extremes to try and exterminate a few little pests.

Edited October 24, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Firstly John thanks for keeping it civil, this is a good discussion and I'm as happy to share my opinion as hear other's, esp. when they're articulate and present a different angle.

S'alright, the only way to get answers is to treat one another with respect.

Firstly I've mentioned the history briefly in my previous response to wildthing, hope it helps, any questions please ask.

Okay on the certainty front I'm not being confrontational about it, which I'm sure you spotted, I simply don't believe it to be true. As for evidence I would only point to the total number of votes cast for "unofficial" candidates despite the pressure some of the PEACE alliances are applying on their rank and file to vote for "X", along with the lack of comment from the same rank and file in threads like this.

You see alot of voting for unofficial candidates on many spheres, I wouldn't class it as discontent with senate control. Just apathy. The same goes for the lack of comments from rank and file members, it simply doesn't interest them. So surely these actions will be about as effective as the way PEACE approach their members concerning senate seats.

If there really was an issue I'm confident that it would have been brought to the attention of the world. People do like to spout their opinions so, just look at the OWF. If people are afraid to state their discontent, might I suggest survey questioning the opinions of all purple members in PEACE alliances concerning the senate control. Publish the results without naming names etc.

No prob mate.

Let me just briefly mention my own situation, I'm a long term purple nation who has previously been in Invicta, Valhalla and United Purple Nations. I have no connection with the stickmen other than supporting their efforts for a free vote. I was briefly a purple senator but as I wasn't an official candidate I became a target for personal attacks and was effectively hounded out of UPN by members of Invicta government all under the name of PEACE, surprising because I'm a big donor.

That's interesting, If this is true I'd be interested to hear what Invicta have to say about this. There are always two sides to a story after all. It's just hard to navigate through all the "no u" responses to get an actual answer.

As I know it SLCB and iFOK did make approaches both before and after joining purple but these were repeatedly rejected. Given the expressed nature of PEACE I believe this to have been unfair at best, and provocative at worst. Most worryingly it reminds me of some very grim days when the bulk of purple were fearful of the old style Valhalla under NoW, however those who suffered the grimness are now in danger of replicating it.

Perhaps PEACE were not pleased with their request concerning certain screenshots which were leaked from iFOK govt. I could understand the desire to keep iFOK away from purple.

I don't claim to know much about purple politics so I can't comment on the climate of a Valhallan dominated sphere under NoWedge and the current climate.

It's true that the stickmen like to play "wildcards", and PEACE members react differently to this, however the problem is that the drama queens make the most noise and so as a whole PEACE is held back from seriously addressing the situation because some of the government involved are predicting the end of the world.

If Stickmen cut out the poop-slinging and certain purple members stopped claiming that iFOK are simply puppets of FOK acting with alterior motives to cause harm to them. Then I'm sure they'd come to a peaceful resolution, however as I said before, they are a minority, and until they gather more members and people with the same desires it is unlikely PEACE will consider changing their policy on senate control.

because they can.

I can go and start shouting obscenities everywhere and declare nuclear war on people willynilly. Doesn't make it a good idea does it?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, there are better methods to achieve ones aims.

[Haflinger]

Depends if you think spamming nations asking to vote for a certain senator equals sending other alliance members target lists.

Both are asking them to disobey orders from their alliance command.

Well, unless the alliance doesn't control who its members declare war on. I suppose such an anarchist alliance could exist.

You simply can't compare the two, imho. How does telling someone to DoW a nation equal asking a person to vote for a senate candidate?

The former is giving out an alliance order to attack someone, the latter is a request on individual basis to vote for a senate candidate.

It doesn't make sense.

Some alliances use volunteer militaries, Tromp, especially when it comes to rogue response. You could certainly send a request to attack someone. I don't think this would be kosher either, though.

We did ask PEACE nicely, they told us we couldn't have our own senate seat.

OK, this is just plain wrong. Possibly your bloc mates haven't been filling you in; you weren't in the channel when these discussions happened.

Jul 21 10:41:31 <Haf> Then M*A*S*H came to Purple, to be with their Legion allies. For various reasons, they didn't want to join Poseidon, but were much, much too large for Pegasus.

Jul 21 10:43:05 <Haf> So we created a treaty for them. Originally it was a NAP, now it's an ODP. Basically they promise to respect the PEACE senate rotation system, and in return they get access to the PEACE forums on the Purple Unity boards and an ODP with all of Poseidon.

Jul 21 10:43:29 <Haf> There have been moves in the past few months to open up the senate structure a bit.

Jul 21 10:43:42 <Haf> M*A*S*H had a senator when Legion decided to give up their spot one month for them.

Jul 21 10:44:09 <Haf> However, the treaty as currently written assigns senate seats at the sole discretion of the Poseidon structure.

Jul 21 10:45:37 <Haf> Speaking for myself personally, I wouldn't mind seeing that change, but I know a lot of the people in the existing PEACE system are used to the way things have been since the blocs were started.

That's where I first hinted at the fact that I was pushing for PEACE Economic signatories to be given access to the Senate.

Aug 04 11:31:27 <Haflinger> Well you guys don't know this, because it hasn't been announced yet, but there's been a slight revision in our senate arrangement.

Aug 04 11:31:28 <Haflinger> heh.

Aug 04 11:31:56 <Haflinger> it should be announced very soon, we were just discussing who gets to make the post.

Aug 04 11:32:12 <NobodyExpects> 2. PEACE only signatories shall be given a spot in the senate rotation upon request on the Purple Unity forums, provided that they have spent 6 months in PEACE and have a minimum of 50 purple nations and 60% of their alliance on purple.

Aug 04 11:32:22 <NobodyExpects> Its gonna be based around that wording or similar

Aug 04 11:33:08 <Iosif[iFOK|Gov]> Interesting

Aug 04 11:33:13 <Haflinger> Now keep in mind that will be going by the individual alliance.

Aug 04 11:33:38 <Iosif[iFOK|Gov]> Naturally

Aug 04 11:33:44 <Haflinger> So if iFOK has 70 purple members, but SLCB only has 40, then iFOK is in, SLCB's not. etc.

Aug 04 11:33:57 <Haflinger> I haven't looked at your stats btw, I'm just making up numbers.

Aug 04 11:34:51 <Haflinger> The immediate beneficiaries of the change in policy will be M*A*S*H and SNAFU I believe.

I was telling Stickmen this early in hopes of encouraging them to apply. They never did. But like I said, FCO would now qualify by member count.

Oh, and yeah, Stickmen aren't a colour bloc.

Yes, you are. Every single one of your alliances is on Purple, as a result of a bloc order. How else would you define color bloc?

It'd be wise to change your policy on logdumps before it gets to the point where nobody will converse with you or your alliance mates because they can't trust you.

If I could get certain people to not talk to me anymore, I'd be a pretty happy guy actually.

(And you might want to realize here. I have a pretty enormous quantity of logs available, mostly of other people. I've been logdumping myself and my fellow members of Invicta government primarily in this thread. If people thought I was untrustworthy, my query activity would drop quite enormously. That'd be OK with me really, although Jorost would probably yell at me alot, lol.)

Purple Unity was born because of a common historical enemy, namely Valhalla under NoWedge rule. Originally it began as an underground organisation to address what was Valhalla's increasing domination of the sphere. Once NoWedge was removed the danger was removed, however folk felt insecure about it until Valhalla became a part, which they have been for a while now.

Valhalla was a founding member of Poseidon.

However what started as a secret defensive bloc has evolved despite it being outdated now. It provides an odd equality where none is due as it's clear which purple alliances are worth their salt, and which aren't. IMHO it now holds those good alliances back, typically by the poorer alliances.

Uhh... secret defensive bloc?

Can we have a lol please?

The founding members of Poseidon were UPN, Invicta, Legion, Valhalla and Elysium.

UPN and Invicta were then - and still are - members of the very public defensive bloc the Common Defensive Treaty. Legion had ties to both UPN and Valhalla, while Elysium had ties to Valhalla. We were all chained around via the treatyweb, although it was kindof a circuitous route, especially since to get from Invicta to Elysium you had to hop via UPN to Legion and then to Valhalla and finally to Elysium, in terms of binding military treaties at least.

I suppose you were in STA then, and don't know that much about the foundation because you weren't there, but I would have thought you'd have known more than that given how much time you spent in Valhalla later on.

Let me just briefly mention my own situation, I'm a long term purple nation who has previously been in Invicta, Valhalla and United Purple Nations. I have no connection with the stickmen other than supporting their efforts for a free vote. I was briefly a purple senator but as I wasn't an official candidate I became a target for personal attacks and was effectively hounded out of UPN by members of Invicta government all under the name of PEACE, surprising because I'm a big donor.

I'd like to see evidence of these personal attacks.

Note that Lord Philip was initially a member of Valhalla when he started his senate campaign, which is largely based around trying to confuse newer Invicta members with his nation name. He then left Valhalla and joined UPN, and then left UPN and went to NSO.

[astronaut jones]

I can go and start shouting obscenities everywhere and declare nuclear war on people willynilly. Doesn't make it a good idea does it?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, there are better methods to achieve ones aims.

No, that's not a very good idea, but then again, your comparison wasn't a very good one, either.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

No, that's not a very good idea, but then again, your comparison wasn't a very good one, either.

It was an example of a bad idea, like these constant attempts to provoke and irritate PEACE alliances. Situations aside, both are bad ideas.

"because they can" isn't a good reason for doing something. There's clearly some other reason for these constant underhand attacks on PEACE alliances and their policy on senate control.

[astronaut jones]

It was an example of a bad idea, like these constant attempts to provoke and irritate PEACE alliances. Situations aside, both are bad ideas.

"because they can" isn't a good reason for doing something. There's clearly some other reason for these constant underhand attacks on PEACE alliances and their policy on senate control.

You probably don't know iFOK very well, so I'm guessing that, .. yeah, no, there's no other reason other than they can, and it's fun.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

You probably don't know iFOK very well, so I'm guessing that, .. yeah, no, there's no other reason other than they can, and it's fun.

You're right I don't, and I don't claim to.

If they feel the need to behave like this, by all means do so, there isn't anything stopping them, it doesn't reflect well on their alliance though.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Johnny Apocalypse

[astronaut jones]

You're right I don't, and I don't claim to.

If they feel the need to behave like this, by all means do so, there isn't anything stopping them, it doesn't reflect well on their alliance though.

And what a change in opinion this was from just a few posts ago.

Congratulations.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

And what a change in opinion this was from just a few posts ago.

Congratulations.

What? My opinion hasn't changed at all.

Do you have anything relevant to contribute to the debate at hand, or are you going to continue to try and derail and nitpick? I can play this game if you like, I don't have anything better to do.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Jingoist]

Good luck trying to find the sucker that will paddle Haflinger

moonpiiiiiies. what a time to be alive.

[WildThing]

I can go and start shouting obscenities everywhere and declare nuclear war on people willynilly. Doesn't make it a good idea does it?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, there are better methods to achieve ones aims.

Depends what you wanted to achieve by it. If you want to get destroyed then yes, it is a pretty good way of going about it.

iFOK on the other hand, wish to destabilize purplol, break up PEACE and start a war with purple, 'because they can', 'because they don't like the current purple alliances', whichever takes your fancy. The methods currently being used seem to be creating tension and drama fairly well, they obviously don't want to attack with no CB themselves, so it's all dancing until then. Or until they can get purple to attack them before they get a legitimate CB. Either way, there arn't all that many better methods to achieve the current aims I don't imagine. They're already seriously pissing people off, and have managed to earn a demolition of Invicta's Vice President, managed to obtain a senate seat twice I do believe, and generally make purplol bawww. I'd say they're doing pretty well and should probably give themselves a pat on the back for their efforts thus far.

[Lord Philip]

I'd like to see evidence of these personal attacks.

Note that Lord Philip was initially a member of Valhalla when he started his senate campaign, which is largely based around trying to confuse newer Invicta members with his nation name. He then left Valhalla and joined UPN, and then left UPN and went to NSO.

I doubt the first point beyond being able to take it seriously, especially as you've stooped to it yourself in the past, and continue to misrepresent my position.

I have never started a senate campaign, nor have never actually actively campaigned beyond having the phrase "VOTE INDEPENDENT FOR PURPLE SENATE - VOTE FOR ME" in my nation bio which has only ever been there since I joined NSO. I have never attempted to confuse anyone, whether they're young or old nations, with my nation name which predates the forming of the Invicta alliance. Nor have I ever posted on any CN related forum or sent private messages in or out of game with regards to gathering votes for myself.

[Rebel Virginia]

I doubt the first point beyond being able to take it seriously, especially as you've stooped to it yourself in the past, and continue to misrepresent my position.

I have never started a senate campaign, nor have never actually actively campaigned beyond having the phrase "VOTE INDEPENDENT FOR PURPLE SENATE - VOTE FOR ME" in my nation bio which has only ever been there since I joined NSO. I have never attempted to confuse anyone, whether they're young or old nations, with my nation name which predates the forming of the Invicta alliance. Nor have I ever posted on any CN related forum or sent private messages in or out of game with regards to gathering votes for myself.

I can back Lord Philip up on this. He has not to my knowledge campaigned for the senate during his tenure in the NSO. If you are referring to the thing we did with Stickmen, that was not entirely seriously.

[Elendil old]

because they can.

Wasn't this attitude the very one you guys were fighting against?

[Mathias]

Arguing about how provocative the Stickmen are, or how evil and controlling PEACE is solves nothing. If senate seats really matter to either of them, they'll do something about it. Until then, nothing either side can (and will) say will change the other's behavior. As much as I hate the "put up or shut up argument," there's no difference this argument can make.

For now, if you want senate seats that badly, you just need to be the better coordinator.

-Bama

[Locke]

I doubt the first point beyond being able to take it seriously, especially as you've stooped to it yourself in the past, and continue to misrepresent my position.

I have never started a senate campaign, nor have never actually actively campaigned beyond having the phrase "VOTE INDEPENDENT FOR PURPLE SENATE - VOTE FOR ME" in my nation bio which has only ever been there since I joined NSO. I have never attempted to confuse anyone, whether they're young or old nations, with my nation name which predates the forming of the Invicta alliance. Nor have I ever posted on any CN related forum or sent private messages in or out of game with regards to gathering votes for myself.

I don't think you've campaigned actively on the name, but surely you know that your name causes confusion, regardless of the fact that it has little (I can't say nothing as both were independantly derived from the same source) to with the alliance. And I don't think you can deny that it's your name that got you a senate seat while you were in UPN contrary to the set rotation. That said, the disclaimer that you're not running as a PEACE senator is a good thing.

[Haflinger]

I can back Lord Philip up on this. He has not to my knowledge campaigned for the senate during his tenure in the NSO. If you are referring to the thing we did with Stickmen, that was not entirely seriously.

I would agree with this. LP's senate campaign was going on while he was a member of Purple Unity alliances.

However, we don't actually care whether he was running for Purple senate while in NSO, which is not a signatory to the Purple senate agreement. The only complaint we had was that he was a member of an alliance which was a signatory to the Purple senate alliance agreements, and was taking actions in contradiction to the treaties his own alliance had signed. If he felt that strongly that he should not be bound by said agreements, he should either have tried to get himself into a position to change the agreements that his alliance had agreed to, or move to a different alliance. As soon as he left the Purple unity alliances, we really stopped worrying about him.

[astronaut jones]

What? My opinion hasn't changed at all.

Do you have anything relevant to contribute to the debate at hand, or are you going to continue to try and derail and nitpick? I can play this game if you like, I don't have anything better to do.

You must have been ignoring every other post I made up until the one pointing out that you changed your stance from 'HOW DARE THEY DO THIS!" to "They can do this if they want, so be it."

That's fine, I ignore posts all the time, but I usually don't accuse people of bringing nothing to the table simply because I choose to ignore their relevant posts.

The stickmen are doing this for their own reasons, and I'm sure if you ask them, they'll tell you what those reasons actually are. Assuming they like you.

Edited October 24, 2009 by astronaut jones

[SiCkO]

how does Stickmen feel now that they are 1 vote away from losing their "10 minutes of fame"