Thoughts on Causes and Effects of the Karma War

[Doitzel]

Paranoia is the NPO's weakness. We exploited it to great effect. TWiP was an incredible political coup not so much for its content but because it essentially made it permissible and eventually trendy to criticise the NPO publicly. As time went on it became clearer and clearer that NPO no longer had the capital to risk putting dissenters down (not just because said dissenters would wind up joining Vox) and things spread like wildfire.

Another significant victory was, as mentioned, making Q so paranoid and afraid of one another that they stopped communicating properly. We did have sources even at the highest level of Q, no matter how many times people want to accuse us of more nefarious methods, and they well knew it. The results are pretty clear; I know NPO pissed off certain alliances with the treaties they signed without forewarning Q. Later came the formation of segments within Q itself -- the same sort of factionalising that killed WUT.

Really the whole thing is a testament to the ineptitude of NPO during the lead-up. There was nothing they could have done specifically to get rid of us, but they could have employed much more effective methods of damage control to hold their web together. We can only speculate how long it would've lasted but at the rate they were alienating their allies it almost seemed like they were trying.

If one wants the true origins of the Karma War one need only look to its predecessor the year before. The casus belli against Hyperion, the terms given to MK and the rest of CnG, the exiles from Polar, the attack on Polar literally for the reason of "electron sponge" (who was long gone, at this point), etc. put so many people on the warpath against Q and friends I couldn't even put a number on it. Even long-dead communities that are scattered all across the world were getting in on it, and that's the secret to any success we had: networking.

As for Vox itself... yes, we had a lot of problems earlier on. We were overly enticed with our anti-authority, anarchic freedom. Nobody wanted to be told to do anything, and as a result we did not do anything for some time outside of a handful of failed individual initiatives. We also had people like Junkalunka (not just him, though he's most memorable) running around shooting the alliance in the foot by calling Vox "Francoist" and whatnot, as if we'd actually be able to redefine the term into something we could use favourably for ourselves (which was absolutely ridiculous given Francoism was already a joke to most even before De Profundis).

I recognised fairly early on that we needed to do something to get us on track but it wasn't until December that things had sufficiently fallen apart and into inactivity that the argument could successfully be made to transition to a government (Junka naturally fought this tooth and nail). Then we got sponge on board and he really made the spyops work in a way that I had no idea how to. We finally got the Senate down to a system where: sponge ran the espionage unit; Schatt did TWiP and whatever other publications; I did passive information gathering, damage control, and internal mediating (there were a lot of personality conflicts heh); Chunky (earlier and to some extent, Starfox too) kept the forums from falling apart; the remaining Senator (MegaAros / Starfox / CSM usually I think) did anything else, usually a lot of forum antagonism.

People can diminish Vox all they want. Yeah, we had a rough start. I'd like to see you do better at managing an alliance that ballooned to 200+ members in 2 days and collapsed in on itself while being declared PZI by the world's biggest superbloc when you'd intended to leave the game due to disinterest and lack of time anyway. I saw the difference we made pretty damn well, myself. One need only look at the replies to De Profundis and contrast with the replies to Vox's disbandment to understand the depths of our impact.

[zzzptm]

Cause of the Karma War: Nobody wanted to be the next Pacifican target. Once Pacifica and its allies had gone through GPA, NoV, and GATO, the major neutral blocs/alliances were tapped out. Pacifica was simply an empire built upon conquest and tribute, not on building a true politico-economic framework in which it was an essential part. People joined NPO because it was biggest and enjoyed the benefits of being part of the biggest tribute empire known on Planeta Roberto in modern times.

But NPO's allies could read the writing on the wall after the NoCB war. The allies at the fringe of NPO's power structure knew they were next in line to take a whack. They were able to mobilize and, as Doitzel mentioned, NPO's own communication channels failed. Vox's communication channels, were superior. Information on who would be on which side became little viral spreadsheets that flew all over the place. As time went on, those spreadsheets more and more showed an advantage to the presumed anti-NPO side.

When TORN/NPO attacked OV, presumably in a move to draw out VE and its close allies, which would have included Nueva Vida, the other alliances chained to OV/VE had already done the math and knew they could win. The war was won before it started. I knew the war that brought down NPO would go like that, and had said as much in a previous statement in the winter prior to the Karma War, but I had not expected the war to arrive so soon after making the call that Q would turn on itself.

Effects: People do more math before going to war. "Rolling" as we once knew it might not happen again on as regular a basis as it once did. Instead, victory in alliance wars will depend more upon the honoring of treaties. Those alliances with solid, tested treaty commitments to each other will be difficult targets and can preserve themselves through honest, genuine friendships with other key alliances. Alliances without demonstrated solid commitments will be seen as targets.

[Walt Kowalski]

I can pretty much guarantee that no one on the Karma side was gonna start the war, as there were several key players (MHA, TOP, and others) who would have fallen on the NPO side in such an event.

At some point or another treaties would be cancelled/created, or simply ignored entirely/worked around. Also, you mention MHA. They had a treaty with Gre the same calibre as their treaty with NPO. They probably would have ended doing the same thing, avoiding NPO and hitting other big players on that side.

Where do you get greed out of this? If you said self-defense, both of themselves, and their allies, you'd be correct. However self defense and ethics are not mutually exclusive.

I get greed out of this because as I mentioned, it was clear something was going to happen (no doubt through large scale war) that would involve NPO. There was a damn good chance that whatever happened was going to happen on a paper thin CB, much like it did with the NoCB war and with NPO's during the Karma war. The only time it wouldn't have been so "paper thin" is if NPO and company did something to truly warrant war in a very short amount of time.

It is and was perfectly possible to people fight for a combination of self-defense, ideals, vengeance, and other motives at the same time.

There's always one that takes control. "Self defense". lulz. You keep on coming back to that. The only one that got hit without getting ample warning was OV. Everyone else by extension was just defending them, and the people who defended them, and the people who defended the people who defended them. So many chaining treaties. Definitely self defense. Definitely.

And it didn't happen?

The world is no longer lead by one group. Just because there isn't some sort of fantasy utopia with white peace for everyone for every war doesn't mean that the world isn't better.

It did, I'm not arguing with that. I don't think it happened in as pretty a way as one could have hoped, what with the NS differences still being fairly large, but everyone is well within range. In a way though, the one thing that is truly a con in this that I've noticed is that with this free speech and no one willing to snatch you for disagreeing with them, we've brought out the once silent, now very vocal, unintelligent toolbags. Need GOONS to redo Shark week, fast.

The reps, as high as they are, hardly made the war profitable for anyone. They make up a fraction of the losses sustained by those fighting NPO.

Not only are you receiving countless dollars, not only is Karma accredited with the massive PR bonus of "freeing" bob from the ebil clutches of NPO, but most importantly your blocs that were once Karma are now on top of the game. That's the real profit you got from this. The reps are making sure that NPO stays down long enough for everyone to secure that lead, along with giving a little boost during the process.

[Lonely]

First, regarding Manic Monday, considering that Doitzel is a good friend of mine and that I spent quite a bit of time discussing his decision to leave the game prior to his announcement and, in fact, encouraged him to post goodbye, which had the hilarious unintended consequence of being the first domino in long a chain, rather than simply slipping out the back door, and considering another Vox founder went on to join my alliance and serve in my government for an extended stretch, there is very little about Manic Monday and Vox Populi that I am not well versed in. Including the fact that when Electron Sponge tried to join during the NoCB war he had to be ejected because of the adverse reaction by many Vox members and supporters to the idea of working with him. If you don't believe that Vox occasionally wound up getting underfoot and tripping up its own efforts, I can go drag Doitzel in here to comment. They certainly wound up being helpful in various ways, but that doesn't mean their weren't many times previous when people opposed to Continuum hegemony wished Vox didn't exist.

Well, Doitzel has spoken for himself, I don’t feel I need to comment further.

Now as far as fighting for an ethical code, perhaps you should go talk to people who had access to the Karma boards that were set up for organizing the military efforts. The amount of competing motives played out their to a far greater extent than it did on the forums. A very vocal subset certainly fought for higher moral standards but for many people it was either not a consideration or a secondary one. Because those didn't care as much about the ethical aspects of the movement, well, didn't care, it pretty much carried the day. The "harsh" terms of the Karma War would be considered average or light had they occurred in NoCB or UjW. Saying that Karma failed to present lenient terms is like saying the sky failed to be blue because there is a cloud in it. To hear people talk you'd think it was overcast and raining.

You know little about me and nothing about my history. Therefore, I don’t think you should come to conclusions about how much information I have had available from friends in Karma, or even conclude that I didn’t have access to Karma boards myself. Furthermore, to claim that you are correct about a topic merely because you know more about it is a classic example of argument from authority, which is simply incorrect. I stand by what I said before, which is that ethics were fundamental to Karma and the rise of Karma. For evidence of this, read the Cyber Nations Forums for the few months prior to the Karma War, read WarriorConcept’s or Jerdge’s anti-EZI campaign... just open your eyes.

[Francesca]

I would just like to say that these claims that Karma wasn't based on ethics are simply false. I was in Vox, I was in Karma, I spoke with Karma and Vox members every day. The vast majority of people cared about ethics, especially prior to the war.

[WorldConqueror]

I find it hilarious that the Karma-ites can say that ethics had nothing to do with it. Ethics and morals were your rallying cry and the basis of your movement. You simply turned your back on them once the power relationship changed.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

People are over analysing.

Twas boredom killed the beast.

Nah I like it when we decide to be intelligent for a change.

Will read and post later, somewhat busy now.

[Mordd]

"The past is all that has come to pass. History is how we choose to remember it".

This is a fascinating history of some of the events leading up to the Karma war, although I thought the Karma war was the one against Polar that occured earlier, but maybe history has changed this in my absence.

Oh yes, I believe its "Thoughts" incidentally, not "Thoughs".

Edited October 12, 2009 by Mordd

[LiquidMercury]

I find it hilarious that the Karma-ites can say that ethics had nothing to do with it. Ethics and morals were your rallying cry and the basis of your movement. You simply turned your back on them once the power relationship changed.

I still stand by my word when I say that my time in karma was for moral and ethical beliefs.

Mordd: The war against Polar has been termed The War of the Coalition. Karma is the war that just happened that brought down the hegemony.

Edited October 12, 2009 by LiquidMercury

[WorldConqueror]

I still stand by my word when I say that my time in karma was for moral and ethical beliefs.

Don't you feel annoyed then, that the coalition that you were one of the figureheads for, and whose military planning you took care of, and whose sig you still wear, now claims that that war wasn't fought for ethics and morals?

[Francesca]

Don't you feel annoyed then, that the coalition that you were one of the figureheads for, and whose military planning you took care of, and whose sig you still wear, now claims that that war wasn't fought for ethics and morals?

Well, I sure do. *shrugs*

[Mordd]

Thanks for the clarification LM, it seems history has indeed changed the name, my quote couldn't be truer, and this is a great reflection of that.

[WorldConqueror]

Thanks for the clarification LM, it seems history has indeed changed the name, my quote couldn't be truer, and this is a great reflection of that.

Actually no, the Polar war was never known as Karma, and has always been known as the War of the Coalition, or Second Patriotic War.

[Mordd]

Actually no, the Polar war was never known as Karma, and has always been known as the War of the Coalition, or Second Patriotic War.

My memory when I was in Grämlins at the time we/they declared on Polar was that we/they were calling it the Karma war, maybe I am mistaken but that is my honest recollection.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Mordd

[zzzptm]

Actually no, the Polar war was never known as Karma, and has always been known as the War of the Coalition, or Second Patriotic War.

Also the No Causus Belli War, or No CB War for short.

[ChairmanHal]

Some random thoughts...

The Karma War brought together a wide variety of constituencies with a wide variety of agendas. It would never have been possible had the various conventional in-game alliances that formed an anti-Q coalition and provided the firepower to bring down NPO and its allies not participated. Vox without them are the court jesters of CN. The coalition of anti-Q alliances without Vox would have succeeded anyway, but the war would not have been prosecuted with such confidence and would have perhaps been even bloodier.

It is also impossible to point to one specific place on the CN timeline and say, "here is where the Karma War began." Many conversations, carried out independently since before the War of the Coalition, led to what would become a perfect storm.

One should therefore never made the mistake of saying, "we [Karma] aren't living up the principles we were trying to uphold when we decided to fight!" That presumes that Karma was some monolithic entity with lockstep agenda--it never, ever was. Much the same can be said of Vox. As others have so eloquently pointed out, it was at best a hodgepodge of individuals who under other circumstances would not have been together in an alliance. It was natural that having accomplished the goal that held it together (revenge on NPO), it dissolved. There was nothing but the memories of fighting for common cause left. Nice for reunions, not enough for much else.

[WorldConqueror]

One should therefore never made the mistake of saying, "we [Karma] aren't living up the principles we were trying to uphold when we decided to fight!" That presumes that Karma was some monolithic entity with lockstep agenda--it never, ever was.

It doesn't presume that at all. It presumes that there is a lowest common denominator between the alliances that made up Karma, some kind of common cause. Well, that was taking down the NPO. And why did they want that? Either it was because we were number one, or because we did 'bad' things, or some combination of the two. Now, I don't remember hearing the realpolitik argument as justification for the Karma war, even though it certainly played a part. But no, the war revolved around Pacifica's 'bad deeds'. These were the things that were held up as the reason we should be destroyed, they were Karma's rallying cry, and they were the terms under which the war was fought. Armageddon was the moralists war. So of course people are going to wonder what they just fought for when their leaders turn around and say "lol, dont really care bout PZI n stuff gais, just dunt like NPO ". Karma made the war about morals when they used them as the weapon to destroy Pacifica, but now they're finding it's a double edged sword when they are expected to maintain these lofty ideals.

[Denial]

It doesn't presume that at all. It presumes that there is a lowest common denominator between the alliances that made up Karma, some kind of common cause. Well, that was taking down the NPO. And why did they want that? Either it was because we were number one, or because we did 'bad' things, or some combination of the two.

Or, you know, because Pacifica initiated an unjustifiable war and attacked our allies.

[The Eye]

This thread is clearly IC. Moving to World Affairs.

[WorldConqueror]

The war was justified. We attacked OV, OV was not allied to everyone in Karma. How many alliances used aggressive clauses to enter?

But anyway, that wasn't my point. My point is that at the beginning, and throughout the war, the cry was "OMG NPO uses PZI! They use EZI! They use harsh surrender terms! They fought poor little FAN! What MONSTERS! Shall we sally forth on our white steeds and slay the beast?"

Edited October 12, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Blacky]

I think it's important to note that there were various reasons why alliances entered into the NoCB war and not all of them were as nefarious as the alliances that kick-started the war -- namely Valhalla and GGA's attacks on Hyperion. I think the fact that Gremlins for instance was seen positively at the conclusion of the war is testament to this.

Fast forward to the Karma war. The Karma coalition similarly each had different motivations for entering the war and so it would be fallacious to apply one alliances motivations and use it to measure every other alliances in order to point out contradictions.

What this proves if anything is that the fabric of Karma was not at all tightly-woven and this became apparent at the onset of the war. Certain alliances had different agendas some of which were even counter-productive to that of the majority of the alliances which made up Karma. But even then to say that Karma was not a positive force is ridiculous. The political landscape is far freer now than ever before, alliances which were forced into the shadows have now emerged, new alliances are formed daily, people are held to higher standards, etc.

[ChairmanHal]

Karma made the war about morals when they used them as the weapon to destroy Pacifica, but now they're finding it's a double edged sword when they are expected to maintain these lofty ideals.

You could make the argument that those that spoke for Karma most often on the OWRP during the war talked about morality as being their reason for participating. A fair number of people even drank that Kool-aid. But the vast majority of those who fought in the war on the Karma side, including much of the leadership, only had a vague notion regarding the "immorality of NPO" or just saw a challenge as old as man--kill the mammoth. You also had any number of side agendas that played out. Make Echelon pay. Make TPF pay. If Valhalla got off "lucky", it was only because those fighting against Valhalla had no real agenda against it except that they were on the wrong side of the war. It helps to explain the relatively easy terms other alliances got as well.

Also, OV was a pawn. If NPO doesn't understand that, then they are doomed to be tripped up again.

[Blacky]

But the vast majority of those who fought in the war on the Karma side, including much of the leadership, only had a vague notion regarding the "immorality of NPO" or just saw a challenge as old as man--kill the mammoth.

I don't know what your sources on this are but it looks to be like revisionism if anything. The Karma coalition was largely influenced out of a state of torpor due to morality and to the injustices various alliances had been subjected to under the hegemony. These morals were espoused by various Karma representatives. Archon and LiquidMercury for instance whose memorable posts on the OWF are to this day seen as the beginning of a new era. As a new standard by which alliances actions are judged, etc.

[Bob Janova]

I have to disagree with the idea that ethics weren't a big part of the motivation for at least some alliances in Karma. They were, and the general pattern of friendly peace terms given to Hegemony alliances shows that there really was a sense of 'doing the right thing' about Karma. Only Echelon and TPF got harsh terms, along with the NPO who were always going to, compared to 10 or 20 alliances who got zero or low reps. No viceroys were imposed, no wonders were decommissioned, no governments were forcibly removed. EZI is now forsworn by every major alliance; even PZI is rare, and criticised. For many people, Karma was about removing the 'evil' hegemony and making the world a better place, and despite the attempts to rewrite history, that was largely successful.

Yes, NPO and a couple of other die-hard Hegemony alliances got high reparations. You didn't get any 'evil' terms to comply with, though, and in the opposite situation you would probably have forced alliances into disbandment. TPF, at least (not sure about Echelon), were offered peace much earlier in the war and chose to fight on, doing large amounts of unnecessary damage to the alliances they were fighting; it's a pretty blinkered view to say that reparations aren't justified in that position. (The same was true of IRON, though they didn't get such high ones in the end anyway.) NPO are the demonstration of what Azaghul was saying when he mentioned that we weren't against harsh terms, we were against excessive terms (for alliances who didn't deserve it); NPO started the war, they kept the hegemony together for two years and bore responsibility for most of its worst acts – they deserve the terms they got. Alliances which entered due to treaty commitments got an easy peace (and yes, that includes TPF, they just chose not to take it).

Of course, not everyone shared the same view. Some alliances (most notably most of SF but spread throughout Karma) were simply in it to win the war, and weren't particularly concerned with moral objectives. There's nothing wrong with that, and these alliances did not see any reason to waive the usual reparations to cover some of the cost of winning a war, though they did agree with not including 'evil' terms. But overall, Karma was an ethical coalition and it has made the world better.

Now, re the questions raised in the OP itself: the principal cause of the war was, of course, the attacks by TPF, TORN and NPO that started it. Beyond that, I would agree with the idea that paranoia was the main cause, and several instances of it at that.

Immediately before the war, there was a paranoia that the power structure was breaking up and that they must strike before it had shifted so far away from them that they would not win – and ironically, a paranoia of being spied upon that resulted in several major alliances not being fully informed of the plans, which resulted in the power structure breaking up much worse. It had been clear for some time that Sparta, MHA and TOP (not to mention the myriad alliances with MDPs to a 'core Hegemony' member who cancelled around the time of the war) were not totally happy with the political structures, but holding a Continuum meeting without them and then declaring war without informing them was a sure way to make them flop off the fence onto the opposite side.

The worst case of paranoia at that time was the idea that they would be attacked if they did not do so first, and not on their own terms. As far as I'm aware (and I was involved with what became Karma from a very early stage, when it appeared there might be an attack on VE a week or two before, and when there were rumours of a hit on PC a few days before the real war), no-one had ever planned an aggressive war against the hegemony. It would have been totally impractical to do so; most major alliances had MDPs with it, and everyone in Karma had PIATs that would have required notification of the plans to the very alliances that would be implicated in defence! The idea that the NPO was in any imminent danger was pure paranoia, and would not have stood up to scrutiny – but we still hear that justification for attacking in discussions today.

Looking further back, the paranoia about compromised communication channels certainly helped to break up the political grouping around the NPO. Communication in Continuum had never been great, ever since VietFAN II back in December 2007 when open discussion on the internal boards was suppressed, but after a couple of high profile leaks from the government forums and IRC in 2008, it was basically non-existent. As well as the 'evil Hegemony' aspects that drove a moralist alliance like mine away, there was simply a feeling that we weren't 'real allies'. The Continuum boards, even at the top levels, never had the engagement between signatories that the Citadel ones do, and that old chestnut 'communication issues' meant that most Continuum alliances did not feel close to each other. Governments can hold such a political structure together in the good times, but member level opinion was hugely negative – Grämlins, FOK and MHA all left on the back of massively one-sided membership polls.

People like to elevate Vox's importance in that paranoia more than is justified, in my opinion. Yes, they did have a role – they reminded the main powers that their communication channels were vulnerable, and managed to keep penetrating the Sanctum for long periods. But Continuum was already paranoid; the attacks on Hyperion were not announced even on the government area before they happened (which resulted in a big split between Valhalla and TOP/Grämlins), for example, out of fear of leaks. Citadel and TOP (and OG? I forget) were also spied on by Vox, but that didn't greatly affect their operation. Vox's main role, in my opinion, was the public relations one – making it acceptable to criticise the NPO and the hegemony (though even there, the presence of Citadel, Superfriends, NpO and C&G as forces too large to be destroyed probably helped as well), and publicising its factionality.

As for the effects of Karma – well, it's still rather early to tell. We're currently still in the chaotic multipolar post-war anarchy, and we won't truly know the effects until a new world order emerges; the character of that order will be the lasting effect of Karma. Right now, things are better, as I said earlier: no EZI, no viceroys, no forced disbandments, no stompings on poor CBs. Those things are in line with the objectives of Karma, but they would also be the result of no faction having the power to do any of them at present, so I think it's too early to be sure what the long term effects are.

[ChairmanHal]

cause: NPO attacked OV.

effect: OV had MADP's with VE and GOD and another defense treaty with Vanguard. Enter VE, Superfriends, Complaints & Grievances. Other aggression treaties are activated, and the forces of Karma have been outlined. Friends bail on NPO, only to return afterwards when its less tactically effective. NPO loses scores of score.

That's like saying that hitting the telephone pole was the reason the driver died. Nice observation, but the whole story is this big:

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

and you are looking at this:

|--|