Overrated Alliance Government

[Gopherbashi]

Khyber, when one person says "It's an orderly transition," and another says "We're completely screwed over," and it turns out that we're completely screwed over, I wouldn't exactly call for former a patron of truthfulness, theatrics or not. Your alliance had agreed to that protectorate before even bothering to check any version of events, and from my personal dealings with your alliance at the time, any investigation (if you can even call it that) seemed tailored only to fit one final conclusion.

Unless you've got a completely different definition of "honesty" than I do; either Sam changed his "orderly transition" story completely on its head, or you "don't know the whole song and dance" of how events unfolded - which, if your post above is any indication, appears to be an underlying theme upon which you base your decisions.

EDIT: Although I must say, it's nice to see someone from a different alliance stick up for Sam for once. I was actually starting to feel a bit sorry for TSO going it alone.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[D34th]

Sam is totally under-rated because after all that he did, he still is alive and secure. This is an amazing survivor instinct.

Also, lol watchman.

[Ardus]

I love that this thread has now turned into an airing out of grudges held by Polaris.

[D34th]

I love that this thread has now turned into an airing out of grudges held by Polaris.

That's make we feel lighter

[Ardus]

That's make we feel lighter

Um... I'm sorry? Could you repeat that, I think there was something Bob Sanders in my ear.

[D34th]

Um... I'm sorry? Could you repeat that, I think there was something Bob Sanders in my ear.

Fixing: This make us feel lighter

[Khyber]

Khyber, when one person says "It's an orderly transition," and another says "We're completely screwed over," and it turns out that we're completely screwed over, I wouldn't exactly call for former a patron of truthfulness, theatrics or not. Your alliance had agreed to that protectorate before even bothering to check any version of events, and from my personal dealings with your alliance at the time, any investigation (if you can even call it that) seemed tailored only to fit one final conclusion.

Unless you've got a completely different definition of "honesty" than I do; either Sam changed his "orderly transition" story completely on its head, or you "don't know the whole song and dance" of how events unfolded - which, if your post above is any indication, appears to be an underlying theme upon which you base your decisions.

EDIT: Although I must say, it's nice to see someone from a different alliance stick up for Sam for once. I was actually starting to feel a bit sorry for TSO going it alone.

Gopherbashi, I know people often convience themselves that things have gone down one way and memory gets a bit foggy with time that they aren't 100% sure. If Fresh and Feanor (I believe it was him, I'll look it up and tell you) are willing to have the logs released, I can show you exactly what Fresh knew before. How his story changed from knowing it was two dozen or Feanor informing him it was two dozen, to only thinking it was a dozen on the Q boards. How he knew how the switch over was going to be made, to it taking him by suprise when the membership of MCXA finds out.

This happens around 3 or 4 days (memory is foggy but I can check the logs) before TSO splits and before the leak goes out to the general membership of MCXA, I think they had to leave the next day or 2 days after the leak. At that time there was no urgency.

Now I don't fully know your role in it, but to me Fresh had an angry MCXA membership and was trying to weasel his way out of what he knew and played the victim.

Sam's train the next generation of leadership was a stupid idea. As soon as he wanted to leave he should have left, and if others followed him so be it, but Fresh to me seem appraised enough of the situation, while the details were not 100% clear he had a good percent of it and not even Sam could have predicted how his plan would horribly fail, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

I don't support what Sam did. I thought it was a horrible leadership decision on every level, but Fresh playing the victim was the greater lie then Sam's two dozen turning out to be 30, or him having to change the plan the next day due to the leak.

So please if you have any doubts about what I'm saying ask Fresh to let the logs get released, even if it is to just you, and ask my goverment to release the logs as well, and then make your judgement on what happened with the information I had before me. Or better yet ask Sam to give you what he told Fresh since I believe those logs were the most revealing, we only confirmed what Sam told us with Fresh and asked for permission to protect them as we were allied to MCXA. Also, ask for the logs when Feanor asks to protect them a second time, you'll have a good laugh at what Fresh considers the "opinion of the alliance" that he gives Feanor, and this is after Feanor ask Fresh over a week or two to find out if it was ok to protect them again.

On this topic I am pretty well informed as I had to make a vote on the issue, and I never vote without knowing the details. With all the parties ok, I can even present the case on the OWFs if you wish, and let people make a decision on this issue for themselves. That said I doubt it would happen, but you should have enough pull to get the logs from all parties.

On the matter of Grub vs. Sam, I think Grub may have a valid reason, but I'm too lazy to double check it, so you won't see me argueing against the Almighty.

[Cornelius]

Well, if you want some legitimate criticism, what about the OOC attacks Sam has resorted to? The ones that were arguably worse than what Sponge was accused of prior to the OoO being canceled. That alone tells me all I would ever need to know about Sam.

I will say that Sponge's issues with us were almost entirely, if not completely, IC.

[Baden-Württemberg]

The reason I hate you is you are exactly what I know you to be from my personal dealings and from the personal dealing of others. Humiliated me you say? Ha, you are a joke. You humiliated others for your own gain and as overcompensation for some serious OOC size issues. You could not humiliate me, however you could make incredulous demands knowing you had the backing of the powers that be, you could force others to sacrifice their enjoyment in the game for your own petty and pathetic agenda.

Your account of the NADC war matches absolutely nothing that actually occurred, in fact I was go as far as to say it is a complete crock of poop (rather similar to the spin you put on RIOT to make everyone believe you were a good guy and not some kind of indeterminable pond scum).

You are a bare faced liar, unfortunately I know what actually happened, whether anyone else believes you or me doesn't really matter. I know what you are, I know your dirty little secrets that you would prefer to dismiss with ''OMFGZ I am teh ebil I iz teh winner of CN''.

Sponge, may he RIP, had a lot to answer for in-game, but by the standards he was judged, you should be long consigned to public isolation as well ... well I consider that you are really, you are almost as irrelevant to the game as he is now. Enjoy the bratwurst, try not to choke on it.

I am not saying that I humiliated you, but I am saying that you feel humiliated by me. Difference.

And it's always the same. When we actually start talking about facts, I am a liar, because that obviously never happened. Then the "OOC Attacks" get brought up, and you know very well that 1. if I answered that point I'd get warned, 2. I have explained it several time 3. That you simply don't want to believe it.

And yes, the way you present yourself is childish. But that's no news either.

You knew. We all knew. SF knew, Citadel knew, CnG knew, Q knew, 1V knew. Everyone knew the general lineup. There were some changes due to the way in which the war started, but you knew beforehand that there was a decent chance NPO would lose - as good of a chance as there ever was that NPO would lose.

Oh, and not only those you've wronged don't like you. Plenty of people don't, and you can't use the 'they're just butthurt' defense for all of them.

Ask Triyun, NPO offered us a treaty and unfortunately removed the offer after the drama with MCXA.

Also, I think many people are simply jumping on the bandwaggon.

[thaone]

You knew. We all knew. SF knew, Citadel knew, CnG knew, Q knew, 1V knew. Everyone knew the general lineup. There were some changes due to the way in which the war started, but you knew beforehand that there was a decent chance NPO would lose - as good of a chance as there ever was that NPO would lose.

Glad you're such a political expert that you knew beforehand that TOP would side with what would later be called Karma.

It would have made things a lot less complicated if this was indeed the case.

[TehChron]

Glad you're such a political expert that you knew beforehand that TOP would side with what would later be called Karma.

It would have made things a lot less complicated if this was indeed the case.

They've bragged about calling it weeks in advance several times publicly since then.

[thaone]

They've bragged about calling it weeks in advance several times publicly since then.

That's just revisionism, it was far from clear that TOP would join on Karma's side, the best guess was that they would be neutral.

[Doitzel]

That's just revisionism, it was far from clear that TOP would join on Karma's side, the best guess was that they would be neutral.

Everyone knew TOP would do what was most convenient for TOP. They remained purposefully ambiguous so that they could pick whichever side appeared to have the upper hand. It was the same pattern they followed leading up to the UJW.

[Dr. Dan]

Everyone knew TOP would do what was most convenient for TOP. They remained purposefully ambiguous so that they could pick whichever side appeared to have the upper hand. It was the same pattern they followed leading up to the UJW.

We didn't pick a side in UjW (and some might say we went against the grain).  And here we go again.  

Edit: And just as an aside, I believe you said it best when you said "why can't my friends just get along? " (I'm paraphrasing here).

Edited October 9, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[Doitzel]

We didn't pick a side in UjW (and some might say we went against the grain).

Uh-huh. Doesn't really contradict what I've said, does it? I was talking about the lead-up. Nobody screwed up quite as badly as NPO at the onset of the UJW (of course the big blunders did come eventually) as an impetus for your entry. Even if your assertion that you didn't pick a side is believed -- not something I buy tbh -- it still supports that general unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in which I was trying to convey.

[Baden-Württemberg]

Khyber, when one person says "It's an orderly transition," and another says "We're completely screwed over," and it turns out that we're completely screwed over, I wouldn't exactly call for former a patron of truthfulness, theatrics or not. Your alliance had agreed to that protectorate before even bothering to check any version of events, and from my personal dealings with your alliance at the time, any investigation (if you can even call it that) seemed tailored only to fit one final conclusion.

Unless you've got a completely different definition of "honesty" than I do; either Sam changed his "orderly transition" story completely on its head, or you "don't know the whole song and dance" of how events unfolded - which, if your post above is any indication, appears to be an underlying theme upon which you base your decisions.

EDIT: Although I must say, it's nice to see someone from a different alliance stick up for Sam for once. I was actually starting to feel a bit sorry for TSO going it alone.

The situation was a little more complicated than that. I assume you know that we planned to stay 2 more months in order to have an ordered transition. I wanted an ordered transition and hoped for one. You guys wanted that we leave earlier, after it was leaked, that said, I am hardly responsible for the DoE mess-up. I slept like a baby when that happened.

When it comes to my post in the Continuum, I have a screenshot of that and don't find the part in which I am lying about anything TBB.

The thing happened in February, and I had other stuff I needed to concentrate on, I certainly don't remember all IRC conversations anymore, but I am certain we have sent every piece of log we have about this issue to TOP. And we came to a mutual agreement.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Baden-Württemberg

[Dr. Dan]

Uh-huh. Doesn't really contradict what I've said, does it? I was talking about the lead-up. Nobody screwed up quite as badly as NPO at the onset of the UJW (of course the big blunders did come eventually) as an impetus for your entry. Even if your assertion that you didn't pick a side is believed -- not something I buy tbh -- it still supports that general unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in which I was trying to convey.

The opportunity hasn't presented itself for us since WUT.  You can't really infer that from our history.

I believe, also interestingly enough, that we were ready to roll on day one of the Karma war, but we just had a few speed bumps.  Even still, the choice was made overall for our alliance.  I'll tell you that it was probably mostly made in anger, not pragmatism in that case, though.  

Edit: Ha, I can't believe I called it an "opportunity". See, look at my mindset? I'm looking forward to it.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[Khyber]

Ask Triyun, NPO offered us a treaty and unfortunately removed the offer after the drama with MCXA.

Also, I think many people are simply jumping on the bandwaggon.

That is also true. You guys were pushed into isolation, by MCXA on one side, and by your history in MCXA on the other side. After that departure you guys were outcast not due to any political move of your choice but rather by curcumstances.

I remember you even told us, and we confirmed that, that NPO wouldn't give you an embassy because you were shy of some magic number to be recognized as an alliance, and they already had embassies with alliances smaller then that number. To keep MCXA close they had to distance themselves from you and they did.

But Sam, I'm sure it was your plan all along

Uh-huh. Doesn't really contradict what I've said, does it? I was talking about the lead-up. Nobody screwed up quite as badly as NPO at the onset of the UJW (of course the big blunders did come eventually) as an impetus for your entry. Even if your assertion that you didn't pick a side is believed -- not something I buy tbh -- it still supports that general unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in which I was trying to convey.

From what I recall, TOP threatened to enter the UJW before it was clear who was going to win. NpO backed off. I was in BLEU then, and leading TSH's military, and we were all worried if TOP and Gremlins joined the war how it would affect the war. NpO seemed to want to secure an easy win, hence their choice not to press the matter. FOK got peace, and one of our allies had to peace out of the war as well, and both AiD and GATO had to get out of the fight with FOK.

That action clearly contradicts your "unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in". Normally I expect better from you tbh then this tired line that has obvious holes in it's line of thinking.

Dr. Dan is right about the last war, we were pissed. Whoever attacked would have lost our support. Gremlins knew it, and the NPO knew it. We tried to ensure peace because we knew full well that if the NPO pushed for war they would have put us right in the middle. In how they did it only made our membership that much angrier, and any pro NPO sentiment that was supporting the NPO right to attack someone for spying evaporated in the moment they attacked during what we were told was a done deal minutes before by our goverment.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Khyber

[Kiss Goodbye]

it still supports that general unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in which I was trying to convey.

I don't really care about the past. It won't be an issue in the future. We once believed we could hold together two increasingly hostile groups of allies, and act as the rope across the chasm.

No longer.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Heracles the Great]

Uh-huh. Doesn't really contradict what I've said, does it? I was talking about the lead-up. Nobody screwed up quite as badly as NPO at the onset of the UJW (of course the big blunders did come eventually) as an impetus for your entry. Even if your assertion that you didn't pick a side is believed -- not something I buy tbh -- it still supports that general unwillingness of TOP to involve itself without having a decisive advantage going in which I was trying to convey.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with having very close allies on both sides of the war and trying to mediate talks to prevent any war at all....

[TypoNinja]

I don't really care about the past. It won't be an issue in the future. We once believed we could hold together two increasingly hostile groups of allies, and act as the rope across the chasm.

No longer.

A noble sentiment, but on Bob all that gets you is stuck in the middle.

[Archon]

Honestly, nothing better can happen to you in a political simulator, than to have people who really hate you.

You could not be more wrong if you tried. I cannot fathom why some people think this way. Is it because they are rationalizing failure or deficiencies in their own personality? Or do they just have some strange, deep seated desire to exercise false power over others by making them miserable?

Either way, I don't get it and I probably won't. I've heard other folks spout the same line and I could never buy it then either. I'm not really aware of anyone who hates me in this game, and while I don't doubt there must be some who do, I consider it one of my greatest accomplishments to have been an influential political player without inspiring hatred in those around me. Actually, scratch the 'one of' part (and the 's' on accomplishments for grammar's sake).

[Triyun]

I can confirm the NPO offered a treaty when we had been told an amicable split was in the pipeline. We did not feel it would be appropriate when MCXA was still our friend to offer a treaty to TSO, I personally still think Sam is pretty cool though.

[Delta1212]

You could not be more wrong if you tried. I cannot fathom why some people think this way. Is it because they are rationalizing failure or deficiencies in their own personality? Or do they just have some strange, deep seated desire to exercise false power over others by making them miserable?

Either way, I don't get it and I probably won't. I've heard other folks spout the same line and I could never buy it then either. I'm not really aware of anyone who hates me in this game, and while I don't doubt there must be some who do, I consider it one of my greatest accomplishments to have been an influential political player without inspiring hatred in those around me. Actually, scratch the 'one of' part (and the 's' on accomplishments for grammar's sake).

It's the same reason that people brag about how badly they failed a test in high school. It's less damaging to the ego to pretend everything you do is intentional and a grand accomplishment than to admit that you failed.

[Blue Lightning]

You knew. We all knew. SF knew, Citadel knew, CnG knew, Q knew, 1V knew. Everyone knew the general lineup. There were some changes due to the way in which the war started, but you knew beforehand that there was a decent chance NPO would lose - as good of a chance as there ever was that NPO would lose.

Oh, and not only those you've wronged don't like you. Plenty of people don't, and you can't use the 'they're just butthurt' defense for all of them.

They've bragged about calling it weeks in advance several times publicly since then.

What? Show me a post by a TOP member saying that we knew anything about the Karma war until a few days before the declaration by the NPO. The first we heard of it was when our allies informed us that there was something going on between the NPO and OV that had the potential to blow up big time. That's when we first got involved.

Honestly, most of the reasons to hate Sam really don't need to be brought up here. Let's call it "unequaled immaturity" -- and I'm not talking about the times he spammed obscenities in #vox_populi under the name GIGANTIC_TITTIES.

Having spoken to someone I now know what he is accused of and agree that it shouldn't be aired here, so what is achieved by repeatedly beating around the bush like this? If you think you know something about someone that incriminates them but for whatever reason you can't reveal it, you shouldn't parade it around and rub it in everyone's faces as an excuse to publicly chastise someone every chance you get. As low as the incident it's self may have been, it's also pretty low to use such an incident as a propaganda piece to attack the character of another player. And I'm giving Grub the benefit of the doubt that his outbursts have been directed towards Sam's character rather than his person in this very OOC forum. In spite of the fact that the author of this thread was very clear that such grudges were to be left at the door.

Khyber, when one person says "It's an orderly transition," and another says "We're completely screwed over," and it turns out that we're completely screwed over, I wouldn't exactly call for former a patron of truthfulness, theatrics or not. Your alliance had agreed to that protectorate before even bothering to check any version of events, and from my personal dealings with your alliance at the time, any investigation (if you can even call it that) seemed tailored only to fit one final conclusion.

Unless you've got a completely different definition of "honesty" than I do; either Sam changed his "orderly transition" story completely on its head, or you "don't know the whole song and dance" of how events unfolded - which, if your post above is any indication, appears to be an underlying theme upon which you base your decisions.

EDIT: Although I must say, it's nice to see someone from a different alliance stick up for Sam for once. I was actually starting to feel a bit sorry for TSO going it alone.

When we were deliberating the decision to protect TSO, we were led to DrFresh as a representative of the post-Sam MCXA. He confirmed this and then said that while he was understandably not happy with what was happening, he did not object to our protectorate of them and would not let it effect our relationship with the MCXA. This was before any protectorate deal was made because to our Grand Assembly, upsetting our allies in the MCXA would have been a deal breaker and without this assurance the protectorate wouldn't have been signed.

You might also remember that maybe a few weeks later we did what we could to smooth things over with you. Apologies and assurances were made, not to mention a fair sum of reps were paid, as part of an agreement that we would all "move on". I believe we have lived up to our end of the bargain but if you disagree, by all means come and talk to us about it.

Everyone knew TOP would do what was most convenient for TOP. They remained purposefully ambiguous so that they could pick whichever side appeared to have the upper hand. It was the same pattern they followed leading up to the UJW.

Right. It couldn't have been that, when our allies started fighting each other and generally acted like window lickers, we were all too busy panel beating our own heads from the sheer facepalmery to decide what we were going to do for a little while. It was obviously a sinister plot for us to save our pixels even though for some reason we didn't think to like not fight anyone which would have saved us a whole bunch more pixels. And we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky...you.