Vanguard Edict

[Denial]

So Vanguard left OUT because they thought it inhibited their ability to protect their allies. Makes sense to me. Seems similar to when STA left SNOW.

This was the prevailing reason for Vanguard to remove itself from the Orange Unity Treaty, as far as I see it. The Karma War was perfectly demonstrative of the serious hinderance OUT could serve in Vanguard's enduring pursuit of supporting its allies by all means possible within the Cyberverse. As was previously mentioned by Haflinger of Invicta, the involvement of Vanguard in the Karma War was highly significant due to our allied connections. Hence, the leaked plans from within the Hegemony to exploit OUT to negate the possibility of Vanguard's defence of Ordo Verde (though, this brilliant strategy ignores how swiftly I would have dropped OUT had such a move been necessary to defend Ordo Verde, or any of Vanguard's allies), after the Hegemony's attempts to diplomatically persuade Vanguard, and therefore Complaints & Grievances as a whole, to remain neutral in the beginnings of the conflict.

Orange facts: IRON started voluntarily rotating its seat over a year ago, and ODN shortly after - once they decided it was safe to do so.

Orange facts: IRON may have initiated the process of rotating Senate seats, yet ODN have certainly perfected the act and have gained far more respect from other Orange alliances by doing so.

The Orange Senate has never been abused since OST was signed, and since OUT and OST were originally signed Orange has grown phenomenally.

It depends on your definition of abuse. As it stands currently, the Orange Sphere suffers from a clear apartheid. In contrast with those free Senates, such as that found on Aqua, certain large players on the Orange Sphere have created two distinctive castes; those that are free to run for a Senate seat, and those lowly commoners that must wait to be granted such a privilege by others.

When will ODN be leaving OUT? Does ODN still support limiting OST to its current signatories?

Leave your irrational hatred for ODN, and its subsequent speculation on matters that have little to do with Vanguard's departure from OUT, out of this thread.

It's always been mutually beneficial. The only reason it's survived so long, despite all the political divisions within it, despite the various wars that put everyone on opposing sides, is because everyone benefits from it. It was never a particularly close community, and what happened in the Karma war isn't any different than what happened in UJW.

If we take what you said to be true, then it is quite obvious that Vanguard feels it no longer benefits from participation in OUT.

So I suppose that leads to the conclusion that Vanguard have changed, as OUT and orange have not (except growing in numbers).

Well, we did just recently have the largest government shake-up ever experienced within Vanguard, so yes, in some regards, Vanguard will conduct its affairs in a somewhat altered manner. Though, this move was bound to occur whether I stepped down or not.

I inherited this mess when I became Queen, fixing it isn't easy. D:

Of course, that is assuming that the Queen of Orange must promote Orange Unity. >

Sub-par and illegitimate Queen, tbh. QuiteTheUserName is, and will always be, the true monarch of the Orange Sphere

Overall, I strongly support this move. Not only for the reasons outlined by Rafa Nadal in the original announcement, and subsequent posts by he and other government members, but also because it should prove to make things a little more interesting in the future.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Revanche

[Yawoo]

IRON also rotated its seat, as far as I know.

As to not having a problem with them holding a senate seat, clearly we did nothing about them having a senate seat, so obviously we don't see it as much of a problem.

As to the senate race, it is open. It just so happens to be that many orange alliances are cooperating (TOP, IRON, ODN, FOK, plus some I don't know by heart) to achieve a specific senate division. Just because it's the big guys rather than the small ones cooperating doesn't mean its less open than if MOON, GLOF, Orion and others had worked together to gain senate seats.

edit: wording

I suggest you go back to the OUT archives. When I was a MOON member, government at that, I argued that the Senate race should be open for everyone - then TOP and IRON shouted me down. It was made quite clear to me in private what would happen should anyone seek a Senate spot other than IRON, TOP or ODN at that time. The words complete destruction were tossed around, more than once, from more than just one alliance. No, the Senate most certainly was not open then, and probably still isn't now due to the controlled rotation.

[Denial]

I suggest you go back to the OUT archives. When I was a MOON member, government at that, I argued that the Senate race should be open for everyone - then TOP and IRON shouted me down. It was made quite clear to me in private what would happen should anyone seek a Senate spot other than IRON, TOP or ODN at that time. The words complete destruction were tossed around, more than once, from more than just one alliance. No, the Senate most certainly was not open then, and probably still isn't now due to the controlled rotation.

Heh, I recall those discussions quite vividly. Not all of those threats were private, either.

[bcndwilson]

Good thing we're not your lapdog anymore.

Don't worry you were never very good at it.

[Heft]

This was the prevailing reason for Vanguard to remove itself from the Orange Unity Treaty, as far as I see it. The Karma War was perfectly demonstrative of the serious hinderance OUT could serve in Vanguard's enduring pursuit of supporting its allies by all means possible within the Cyberverse. As was previously mentioned by Haflinger of Invicta, the involvement of Vanguard in the Karma War was highly significant due to our allied connections. Hence, the leaked plans from within the Hegemony to exploit OUT to negate the possibility of Vanguard's defence of Ordo Verde (though, this brilliant strategy ignores how swiftly I would have dropped OUT had such a move been necessary to defend Ordo Verde, or any of Vanguard's allies), after the Hegemony's attempts to diplomatically persuade Vanguard, and therefore Complaints & Grievances as a whole, to remain neutral in the beginnings of the conflict.

And this is special or interesting how? Or different from any other conflict and any other treaty how? If you had such an issue with it, you would have left then, and not waited until attempts to patch things up began to go into motion. It doesn't make any sense and seems to be little more than a red herring.

Orange facts: IRON may have initiated the process of rotating Senate seats, yet ODN have certainly perfected the act and have gained far more respect from other Orange alliances by doing so.

Because they let you have a seat? Or because their current leader seems to be constantly kissing your feet?

It depends on your definition of abuse. As it stands currently, the Orange Sphere suffers from a clear apartheid. In contrast with those free Senates, such as that found on Aqua, certain large players on the Orange Sphere have created two distinctive castes; those that are free to run for a Senate seat, and those lowly commoners that must wait to be granted such a privilege by others.

The senate has never been used as a weapon against any alliance, and sanction powers have never been abused. Past that the Senate holds no value. Talks of "apartheid" are just shallow attempts at divisionism and sensationalism.

Leave your irrational hatred for ODN, and its subsequent speculation on matters that have little to do with Vanguard's departure from OUT, out of this thread.

I'm not allowed to respond directly to the leader of the ODN when he makes such leading comments?

If we take what you said to be true, then it is quite obvious that Vanguard feels it no longer benefits from participation in OUT.

It is clear that you no longer value a stable sphere.

[zimmerwald1915]

The senate has never been used as a weapon against any alliance, and sanction powers have never been abused. Past that the Senate holds no value. Talks of "apartheid" are just shallow attempts at divisionism and sensationalism.

I seem to remember sanctions being used as a weapon in Great War III. While that's before the OST was signed, it did happen (unless I'm misremembering, or unless the Senator in question was acting on his own authority and not because he was under orders).

[Delta1212]

It is clear that you no longer value a stable sphere.

If someone feels the need to withdraw from a color treaty, I'm pretty sure that is a symptom of instability rather than something that will cause it.

I've never understood why people on Orange have touted it has a bastion of stability (well, I can guess) but I've always thought it was rather precariously balanced, which is most definitely not a sign of stability. Of course, this thread has so far done a terrific job of disabusing me of that notion.

[Proximus]

Don't worry you were never very good at it.

That's alright with me, it's just nice to see an IRON member telling the truth about the past.

[Keve69]

Good move.... and good luck in the future

[Baden-Württemberg]

That's alright with me, it's just nice to see an IRON member telling the truth about the past.

I think it was an ironic statement.

[Heft]

I seem to remember sanctions being used as a weapon in Great War III. While that's before the OST was signed, it did happen (unless I'm misremembering, or unless the Senator in question was acting on his own authority and not because he was under orders).

I don't recall that happening, and while I can't be sure it didn't at least one of us is misremembering. Regardless, even if it did, it hasn't happened since, and I was specifically referring to since OUT and OST were signed.

If someone feels the need to withdraw from a color treaty, I'm pretty sure that is a symptom of instability rather than something that will cause it.

I've never understood why people on Orange have touted it has a bastion of stability (well, I can guess) but I've always thought it was rather precariously balanced, which is most definitely not a sign of stability. Of course, this thread has so far done a terrific job of disabusing me of that notion.

There's always been divisions and disagreements, but there's also for a long time been a commitment to peaceful co-existence which has allowed everyone on the sphere to not have to worry about the normal sphere politics, for the most part. That gave all these influential alliances the room to become and stay so influential for so long, and has always been Orange's strength.

[bcndwilson]

Yes I am sure, this is surely why the ODN embassy remains closed at IRON forums correct? Truly. Yes I can see how we are all working at making orange united. There are still those that are willing to talk with IRON still in the ODN. At least I am.

Statement removed.

Nice, so we can talk to you on a forum no one visits.

I mean, come on, even while at war with Neutral Shoving and despite how much hatred there was for them in ODN, we kept their embassy open. Here we hold a treaty with each other still and we /don't/ have an embassy.

Once upon a time I expected better from IRON, but I guess I shouldn't anymore.

Please share which treaty besides OUT and OST that IRON and ODN still share?

Once upon a time I expected ODN to uphold their treaties...oh wait wrong alliance.

Edited September 19, 2009 by bcndwilson

[Proximus]

Edit: Oh, just in case you couldn't figure it out, I have no interest in being on your forums anymore so please demask me.

Done. Let me know if you ever change your mind, because we'll still have the decency to let you back in.

Also, which is it? OUT is worthless or OUT is not worthless? Because I hear it isn't from some of you, and then you proceed to tell me OUT doesn't count as a treaty.

Personally I think it's pretty worthless, but I was trying out the point of view I had heard from the people who supposedly have been putting so much work into making it better.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Proximus

[Denial]

And this is special or interesting how? Or different from any other conflict and any other treaty how? If you had such an issue with it, you would have left then, and not waited until attempts to patch things up began to go into motion. It doesn't make any sense and seems to be little more than a red herring.

OUT was, and is, a large collection of alliances that very rarely possess the desire to cooperate or pursue mutually beneficial ventures. The Orange Unity Treaty and its ability to be exploited in a manner that would prevent Vanguard from defending one of its allies is "special or interesting", and is differentiated from "any other conflict and any other treaty", because of the higher propensity for OUT alliances to actually go through with such exploitation compared to Vanguard's trusted allies. For example, there is a much higher chance for a repeat of the IRON/TORN vs Ordo Verde plan than there is for STA leading a coalition against Mushroom Kingdom. Unlike some, Vanguard selects its foreign policy and its allies incredibly carefully.

Because they let you have a seat? Or because their current leader seems to be constantly kissing your feet?

Because, as has already been mentioned in this thread, ODN has been readily willing to share their Senate seat with a wide range of alliances, regardless of their size or position in 'Sphere politics'.

The senate has never been used as a weapon against any alliance, and sanction powers have never been abused. Past that the Senate holds no value. Talks of "apartheid" are just shallow attempts at divisionism and sensationalism.

There is no evidence that the Senate would be utilised as a weapon against any alliance, or that sanction powers would be misused in any way, by opening it up to all Orange alliances. If certain Orange alliances are concerned that a free Senate would lead to these consequences, then perhaps Orange is even less united than we all believe, and Vanguard was perfectly justified in leaving OUT and pursuing its own methods of harmonising its home environment. Talks of Sphere apartheid are fully justified. It is no surprise that someone of your ilk - with IRON coursing through your veins, and your mindset still that of a Hegemonist - would deny the obvious castes present within the Orange Sphere. There are two classes within Orange: the haves and have-nots. Vanguard disagrees with such a state in any Sphere, but particularly in our own home.

I'm not allowed to respond directly to the leader of the ODN when he makes such leading comments?

Compose New Message

It is clear that you no longer value a stable sphere.

It is clear that you should stop accusing others of sensationalism when you yourself commit it. For someone in an alliance that claims to be the inventor of everything, the great shifter of paradigms, and other related feats of heroism, you certainly are fixated on outdated thinking. What makes Sphere stability inherently more valuable than international stability in general? Or stability and security amongst an alliance and its allies? Vanguard does not desire conflict between any two Orange signatories, yet we feel we can ensure this via other means that do not restrict our military and political capabilities in the way that OUT can and has.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Revanche

[WalkerNinja]

Personally I think it's pretty worthless, but I was trying out the point of view I had heard from the people who supposedly have been putting so much work into making it better.

OUT (like all paper treaties) has always meant as much as the signatories were willing to put into it. Once upon a time, the ODN knew that better than anyone. I still remember fondly in the days before the Unjust War when OUT was two votes away from becoming an MDP bloc.

If not for the Unjust War things might have been very different.

Edited September 19, 2009 by WalkerNinja

[Heft]

OUT was, and is, a large collection of alliances that very rarely possess the desire to cooperate or pursue mutually beneficial ventures. The Orange Unity Treaty and its ability to be exploited in a manner that would prevent Vanguard from defending one of its allies is "special or interesting", and is differentiated from "any other conflict and any other treaty", because of the higher propensity for OUT alliances to actually go through with such exploitation compared to Vanguard's trusted allies. For example, there is a much higher chance for a repeat of the IRON/TORN vs Ordo Verde plan than there is for STA leading a coalition against Mushroom Kingdom. Unlike some, Vanguard selects its foreign policy and its allies incredibly carefully.

Yet you make this move months after the fact? Sounds more like a convenient excuse to disrupt things and take a shot at the powers you don't like. Besides, it's doubtful if that plan ever would have come to fruition (as evidenced by it not actually coming to fruition) - I shouldn't have to state that in the lead-up to the Karma War there were a wide-range of proposed scenarios on every side that were never very likely.

Because, as has already been mentioned in this thread, ODN has been readily willing to share their Senate seat with a wide range of alliances, regardless of their size or position in 'Sphere politics'.

So because they gave you a seat?

There is no evidence that the Senate would be utilised as a weapon against any alliance, or that sanction powers would be misused in any way, by opening it up to all Orange alliances. If certain Orange alliances are concerned that a free Senate would lead to these consequences, then perhaps Orange is even less united than we all believe, and Vanguard was perfectly justified in leaving OUT and pursuing its own methods of harmonising its home environment.

You've already stated that you don't really value the security of other Orange alliances. Why would they have any desire to hand you something that can only be used as a weapon?

Talks of Sphere apartheid are fully justified. It is no surprise that someone of your ilk - with IRON coursing through your veins, and your mindset still that of a Hegemonist - would deny the obvious castes present within the Orange Sphere. There are two classes within Orange: the haves and have-nots. Vanguard disagrees with such a state in any Sphere, but particularly in our own home.

Down with the bourgeois! Fight the power! No, but those few sentences are so insane I'm utterly at a loss for how to respond. You've hit that level where it's impossible to actually refute you because what the $%&@ are you talking about?

Compose New Message

I don't want to have a private conversation with him, and it was a pertinent question anyway. I'll just wait for their "we're following Vanguard" announcement then.

It is clear that you should stop accusing others of sensationalism when you yourself commit it. For someone in an alliance that claims to be the inventor of everything, the great shifter of paradigms, and other related feats of heroism, you certainly are fixated on outdated thinking.

Man, juxtaposition is awesome.

What makes Sphere stability inherently more valuable than international stability in general? Or stability and security amongst an alliance and its allies? Vanguard does not desire conflict between any two Orange signatories, yet we feel we can ensure this via other means that do not restrict our military and political capabilities in the way that OUT can and has.

What makes stability important is that it's important to actually keeping your sphere growing and attracting new life to it, as well as keeping weapons like the senate from being abused. Your neighbors naturally have a more direct impact on your alliance then some random alliance in another color. These are pretty basic and trivial concepts that most people grasp pretty easily.

[zimmerwald1915]

Down with the bourgeois! Fight the power! No, but those few sentences are so insane I'm utterly at a loss for how to respond. You've hit that level where it's impossible to actually refute you because what the $%&@ are you talking about?

Nothing wrong in principle with taking down the bourgeoisie

[Alekhine]

Heh, good call. Good luck to my friends in Vanguard, and everyone else on Orange.

[Alterego]

No loss to OUT. Great news for the rest of OUT.

[shahenshah]

Yes I am sure, this is surely why the ODN embassy remains closed at IRON forums correct? Truly. Yes I can see how we are all working at making orange united. There are still those that are willing to talk with IRON still in the ODN. At least I am.

...

Cutting the strings was one of the best moves ODN has ever made.

Stick with one cool story Bros.

Done. Let me know if you ever change your mind, because we'll still have the decency to let you back in.

Also, which is it? OUT is worthless or OUT is not worthless? Because I hear it isn't from some of you, and then you proceed to tell me OUT doesn't count as a treaty.

Personally I think it's pretty worthless, but I was trying out the point of view I had heard from the people who supposedly have been putting so much work into making it better.

IRON does not holds worthless treaties, some others may or may not, it is their decision.

Edited September 19, 2009 by shahenshah

[Rach86]

I was not aware of this situation as it was happening ([OOC] I've been busy with school, work, and vet school applications[/OOC]), but I assure everyone that TORN understands this departure. We respect Vanguard's opinion and although we may not agree completely with all political views, we wish them the best of luck. TORN wishes Vanguard no harm in the future.

If there is any further issue with TORN to be mentioned in this thread, then I welcome a private conversation on IRC with myself or any other member of the current government. I'm sure we could find mutual ground, despite any political differences.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Rach86

[shahenshah]

Nothing wrong in principle with taking down the bourgeoisie

Your BFFs are part of it. Complain much there?

[zimmerwald1915]

My BFFs don't play Cybernations. Thanks for trying though.

[John Ron]

I think this was a great decision Vanguard. I support any move that cuts a tie to TOP, even a color treaty.

[President S O]

Congratulations to Orange Unity Treaty and fellow remaining signatories. It is a great day for you all.