Nevar Fergit

[willirica]

Except a year later while others were getting their payback... you were fighting on their side. Unless I'm mistaken once again and you've joined Valhalla after the Karma War ended, but I'm pretty sure my memory isn't that rusty.

The rest of it is very nice and all. But saying you enjoyed your payback while fighting in the defense of those that killed your old alliance... it seems a bit off.

i believe he is referring to the no-cb war; however i could be mistaken.

[Seerow]

i believe he is referring to the no-cb war; however i could be mistaken.

Well he was referring to the NPO stepping in to save TPF and leaving \m/ out to dry, so I assumed he was referring to revenge on the NPO for leaving them hanging, not NpO for actually destroying them. Though I can see how the statement would go either way. That may well be what he meant.

[ChairmanHal]

Except a year later while others were getting their payback... you were fighting on their side. Unless I'm mistaken once again and you've joined Valhalla after the Karma War ended, but I'm pretty sure my memory isn't that rusty.

The rest of it is very nice and all. But saying you enjoyed your payback while fighting in the defense of those that killed your old alliance... it seems a bit off.

Several things in play here for me personally.

1. I recognized in 2007 that unless and until the OoO was gone, no one was getting anything. When it was canceled, that set the stage for Polaris to get theirs, and once they had, Pacifica was next. Really if you were a member of GATO, your revenge took from the end of GWIII until the end of the Karma War. First those major alliances that were diehard protectors had to be pushed out of the way of killed (GW IV, mission accomplished), then the rest.

2. My personal payback came when Electron Sponge and Lord Swampy were removed from power, Atlantis was destroyed (nice job, Judas), and NpO received its shovel to the head. Others did not feel that way and wanted more--they blamed NPO for it all. I on the other hand stated some time ago publicly that Moo was forgiven as far as I was concerned, because if it was a choice between keeping Polaris as an ally or GOONS and company, then the natural choice was Polaris if for no other reason but that Moo most likely faced a revolt if he didn't--remember, the events of GW IV were about a month removed from a major internal power struggle within NPO.

Note: Just because I felt like he didn't have any options didn't mean that NPO didn't screw up. In hindsight, we can look back and say that sticking with Sponge and nto rendering assistance cost NPO its most loyal allies. That doesn't mean I can't forgive NPO however.

3. By December 2008 I saw the removal of NPO from the #1 position as "climbing Mt. Everest"--that unassailable mountain that seemed that no one would climb but it must be climbed. Psychologically, Planet Bob needed it to happen so that it could progress. I also believed, like most in Rok leadership, that it was a matter of time before Q attacked and we would be on the defensive unless we attacked first. In January I watched as NPO's leadership showed me something I never had seen before--vulnerability. In the IRC back channels they were doing their best to put out the fires of war, once in an incident involving Sparta and in another involving ACV. It didn't make sense from what I knew of how NPO operated, unless...they were afraid of what might happen if war broke out.

4. My decision to go to Valhalla had just about everything to do with Valhalla as an alliance and that I liked their style and got along well with Chefjoe and nothing to do with NPO. Rok was after all technically still tied to NPO when I left, as was Valhalla. Rok also shared a MDoAP with Valhalla. I know what you are thinking--but going to Valhalla placed you on the "wrong" side of the war and you knew it. Indeed it did. But I made the decision to go to Valhalla putting aside whatever might happen with the war. I figured on getting shot up either way. If I could help save Valhalla, then perhaps all the losses would be worth it. As for Rok, I knew that once TailsK was out of power they'd do fine. At least Rish seemed to think they were ready about a month out from the start of the war.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Fallen Fool]

Note: Just because I felt like he didn't have any options didn't mean that NPO didn't screw up. In hindsight, we can look back and say that sticking with Sponge and nto rendering assistance cost NPO its most loyal allies. That doesn't mean I can't forgive NPO however.

Just because Sponge and Moo weren't buddies, and the Orders didn't really get along behind the scenes, does not somehow mean that the UJP were somehow NPO's omg best allies ever.

[Haflinger]

Just because Sponge and Moo weren't buddies, and the Orders didn't really get along behind the scenes, does not somehow mean that the UJP were somehow NPO's omg best allies ever.

Indeed; there were tilde alliances in the Karma war who never cancelled on NPO or tried to get out of the war early.

[ChairmanHal]

Just because Sponge and Moo weren't buddies, and the Orders didn't really get along behind the scenes, does not somehow mean that the UJP were somehow NPO's omg best allies ever.

True. But I know in the case of \m/ that you had an alliance that benefited greatly from its association with NPO and had no real desire to be anything else but a NPO ally. Indeed, in the "glory days" even expressing something along the lines of anti-NPO sentiment in the \m/ forums would get you scolded by leadership and chewed out by some of the more pro-NPO members (yes, this contrasts the portrait of \m/ painted by some as it being this place of complete freedom).

My opinion back then was that NPO set up good wars, so there was no reason to be disloyal. I'm quite certain that R, L_E, and Jason8 put quite a bit more time and effort into the conversations/relations with NPO back then, but I've seen nothing in the old IRC conversations, or anywhere else that would lead me to believe that there was any compelling reason for NPO to cut off \m/ or Gen[m]ay except guilt by association.

[Mussolandia]

FF, did you really call for backup against Chairman Hal?

[spearo]

The Unjust War didn't really impact me at all. I was on ZI lists before it, I was on ZI lists after it. CIS was widely disliked and mocked before it, CIS was widely disliked and mocked after it. It was a war for power, nothing more.

For the CIS part sad but true. It was however fun to see first hand GOLD's "fighting" technique though

[Fallen Fool]

True. But I know in the case of \m/ that you had an alliance that benefited greatly from its association with NPO and had no real desire to be anything else but a NPO ally. Indeed, in the "glory days" even expressing something along the lines of anti-NPO sentiment in the \m/ forums would get you scolded by leadership and chewed out by some of the more pro-NPO members (yes, this contrasts the portrait of \m/ painted by some as it being this place of complete freedom).

My opinion back then was that NPO set up good wars, so there was no reason to be disloyal. I'm quite certain that R, L_E, and Jason8 put quite a bit more time and effort into the conversations/relations with NPO back then, but I've seen nothing in the old IRC conversations, or anywhere else that would lead me to believe that there was any compelling reason for NPO to cut off \m/ or Gen[m]ay except guilt by association.

Even a loyal dog needs to be put down or let go when it starts biting strangers, barking at your family, and acting in a generally irrational and unintelligible manner.

FF, did you really call for backup against Chairman Hal?

Not really.

I just like bothering you

Edited September 22, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[ChairmanHal]

Even a loyal dog needs to be put down or let go when it starts biting strangers, barking at your family, and acting in a generally irrational and unintelligible manner.

Too bad that \m/ never did that.

But hey, you were a true Polaris believer, so your words are predictable. The only one of you that wasn't totally predictable was Sponge, and that was only because he became irrational. You wonder why you got busted up the next year? It was all too easy...

FF, did you really call for backup against Chairman Hal?

Another "true believer", another predictable post. Thanks for your input I guess?

Edited September 23, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Schattenmann]

After the first week, I started tackling GOONS with nukes that remained that had fallen out of nuclear range (this is before the MP, after all) to absorb and spy the nukes. My nation has never been that valuable

Silly billy, there were no spies during the UnJust War, at least not the kind you're talking about.

Except a year later while others were getting their payback... you were fighting on their side. Unless I'm mistaken once again and you've joined Valhalla after the Karma War ended, but I'm pretty sure my memory isn't that rusty.

The rest of it is very nice and all. But saying you enjoyed your payback while fighting in the defense of those that killed your old alliance... it seems a bit off.

Hal covered this nicely, but I'll add my own voice/experience. Revenge doesn't necessarily mean that a person was actively involved in the war against NpO or NPO. The great conflict for me in the formation of Vox Populi was that it meant defending Polaris (I was even demasked at GOONS's forum when another pissed of former-GOONS posted that I "[was] helping Electron Sponge's new alliance defend NpO").

But, in the end, it didn't matter that I wasn't actively fighting NpO in the noCB War. (1)It was a far different NpO than the one I was pissed off at for 9 months, hell, they demasked and banned Sponge from the forum to appease the gathering storm (2) the fireworks are just as fun from the observation area as they are from the launch site. It didn't matter that I had no hand in the disbandments of the toady AAs that kept their wars active on the GOONland Resistance Movement, it was just as satifsying to know they couldn't stick together better than a perma-peace alliance.

I think the break is between those of us playing politics and those of us playing cowboys and indians.

FF, did you really call for backup against Chairman Hal?

I thought I was sooooooo cool when I scored this convo:

[Fallen Fool]

Too bad that \m/ never did that.

But hey, you were a true Polaris believer, so your words are predictable. The only one of you that wasn't totally predictable was Sponge, and that was only because he became irrational.

I am a true believer, but that doesn't change the fact that I can see the past clearly, whereas you are quite obviously still blinded by your misguided beliefs.

Do you know why \m/ died? Why no one cared? It wasn't because Sponge was evil and manipulative, and it wasn't because NPO decided not to defend you when ~ came a-knocking. It is because \m/'s stupidity was matched only by the contempt that a majority of the Cyberverse held them in. Seriously, between knocking over miniature alliances for the "lulz," glorifying the victimization of helpless independent nations, its actions in the Viridicide, its actions in the events surrounding the removal of their leadership from this world, its actions in extorting tech from Legion (which true or not people believed) and its memberships generally !@#$ty attitude on the forums, it is a mystery that \m/ lasted as long as it did.

Actually hold that thought. It isn't a mystery after all. It's really very obvious. The only real reason that \m/ survived as long as it did is because the political status quo from the end of Great War III to the so-called "Moldavi Rebellion" favored them. As long as they had WUT at their back, none of the disaffected masses could muster enough strength quickly enough to challenge \m/ and its WUT backers without getting their legs shot out from under them. They couldn't, that is, until first Polar and then GGA broke away from WUT. Then WUT didn't have its full power to crush the opposition, and those disaffected masses had a banner to rally around. And rally they did, up until the point where the writing on the wall was clear and certain smarter, survivor-oriented alliances (e.g. NPO) realized that the UJP was a sinking ship. So they began running to the life rafts and, as soon as other people saw them doing that, a stampede of fair weather soldiers followed.

You wonder why you got busted up the next year? It was all too easy...

I am well aware that Polar, like \m/, was rolled because we were stupid, and because people !@#$@#$ hated us. After 6 months of living hell, it is kind of hard to continue to cling to illusions. Perhaps if \m/ had possessed the structural strength and moral fortitude to survive such an experience you would have been able to finally let go of yours. Edited September 23, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[RandomInterrupt]

I am a true believer, but that doesn't change the fact that I can see the past clearly, whereas you are quite obviously still blinded by your misguided beliefs.

Do you know why \m/ died? Why no one cared? It wasn't because Sponge was evil and manipulative, and it wasn't because NPO decided not to defend you when ~ came a-knocking. It is because \m/'s stupidity was matched only by the contempt that a majority of the Cyberverse held them in. Seriously, between knocking over miniature alliances for the "lulz," glorifying the victimization of helpless independent nations, its actions in the Viridicide, its actions in the events surrounding the removal of their leadership from this world, its actions in extorting tech from Legion (which true or not people believed) and its memberships generally !@#$ty attitude on the forums, it is a mystery that \m/ lasted as long as it did.

Actually hold that thought. It isn't a mystery after all. It's really very obvious. The only real reason that \m/ survived as long as it did is because the political status quo from the end of Great War III to the so-called "Moldavi Rebellion" favored them. As long as they had WUT at their back, none of the disaffected masses could muster enough strength quickly enough to challenge \m/ and its WUT backers without getting their legs shot out from under them. They couldn't, that is, until first Polar and then GGA broke away from WUT. Then WUT didn't have its full power to crush the opposition, and those disaffected masses had a banner to rally around. And rally they did, up until the point where the writing on the wall was clear and certain smarter, survivor-oriented alliances (e.g. NPO) realized that the UJP was a sinking ship. So they began running to the life rafts and, as soon as other people saw them doing that, a stampede of fair weather soldiers followed.

This is a beautiful post. Like poetry.

I am well aware that Polar, like \m/, was rolled because we were stupid, and because people !@#$@#$ hated us. After 6 months of living hell, it is kind of hard to continue to cling to illusions. Perhaps if \m/ had possessed the structural strength and moral fortitude to survive such an experience you would have been able to finally let go of yours.

I think it is hilarious to see anyone compare \m/'s situation to Polar's. Mostly because \m/ folded as soon as they had a real challenge and their only legacy is former members whining for years. Where's Polar again?

[Delta1212]

This is a beautiful post. Like poetry.

I think it is hilarious to see anyone compare \m/'s situation to Polar's. Mostly because \m/ folded as soon as they had a real challenge and their only legacy is former members whining for years. Where's Polar again?

Pfft, Polar disbanded over a year ago and they've been relegated to the irrelevant annals of history. Everyone knows that.

[Schattenmann]

Alright, boys, everyone knows that NpO survived in the face of surrender terms while \m/ disbanded at the drop of the permawar hat, but that's not what this is about.

Remember, we're just here to tell interesting stories, not have the same arguments we've had for the last 2 years.

[WarriorConcept]

I am a true believer, but that doesn't change the fact that I can see the past clearly, whereas you are quite obviously still blinded by your misguided beliefs.

Do you know why \m/ died? Why no one cared? It wasn't because Sponge was evil and manipulative, and it wasn't because NPO decided not to defend you when ~ came a-knocking. It is because \m/'s stupidity was matched only by the contempt that a majority of the Cyberverse held them in. Seriously, between knocking over miniature alliances for the "lulz," glorifying the victimization of helpless independent nations, its actions in the Viridicide, its actions in the events surrounding the removal of their leadership from this world, its actions in extorting tech from Legion (which true or not people believed) and its memberships generally !@#$ty attitude on the forums, it is a mystery that \m/ lasted as long as it did.

Actually hold that thought. It isn't a mystery after all. It's really very obvious. The only real reason that \m/ survived as long as it did is because the political status quo from the end of Great War III to the so-called "Moldavi Rebellion" favored them. As long as they had WUT at their back, none of the disaffected masses could muster enough strength quickly enough to challenge \m/ and its WUT backers without getting their legs shot out from under them. They couldn't, that is, until first Polar and then GGA broke away from WUT. Then WUT didn't have its full power to crush the opposition, and those disaffected masses had a banner to rally around. And rally they did, up until the point where the writing on the wall was clear and certain smarter, survivor-oriented alliances (e.g. NPO) realized that the UJP was a sinking ship. So they began running to the life rafts and, as soon as other people saw them doing that, a stampede of fair weather soldiers followed.

Actions in the viridicide? You mean where we said we specifically did not want to attack VE? The actions about our leaders being banned then unbanned because we really didn't do anything wrong? Keep spewing your propaganda though FF, I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourself.

As for the rest of WUT bailing, well they were survivor oriented and didn't care about fighting for their true friends. They showed their true colors by lying to our faces and planning against us behind our backs while having a treaty with us. They got what they deserved eventually.

I think it is hilarious to see anyone compare \m/'s situation to Polar's. Mostly because \m/ folded as soon as they had a real challenge and their only legacy is former members whining for years. Where's Polar again? was not allowed to surrender and NpO was.

Fixed that for you

Edited September 23, 2009 by WarriorConcept

[Schattenmann]

You too, WC!

[WarriorConcept]

You too, WC!

Just fixing the history revision, my bad.

[Doitzel]

Fixed that for you

I hear FAN and GATO are doing pretty swell these days.

[TehChron]

I hear FAN and GATO are doing pretty swell these days.

So is TOP too, btw. Although, to be fair, I dont really know their role in that series of events.

[Rebel Virginia]

Just fixing the history revision, my bad.

I don't believe you understand. I think Schatt is trying to say that you were also allowed to surrender, and did in fact do just that. Just thought I'd point that out. I like being helpful.

[WarriorConcept]

I hear FAN and GATO are doing pretty swell these days.

From being around, I know they were presented with terms.

I don't believe you understand. I think Schatt is trying to say that you were also allowed to surrender, and did in fact do just that. Just thought I'd point that out. I like being helpful.

The PM in my inbox says you're wrong

[ChairmanHal]

Alright, boys, everyone knows that NpO survived in the face of surrender terms while \m/ disbanded at the drop of the permawar hat, but that's not what this is about.

Remember, we're just here to tell interesting stories, not have the same arguments we've had for the last 2 years.

With all due respect, that will never happen. Actually, you were lucky to get as many interesting stories as you did before the whole thing train wrecked into a verbal refighting of the whole war.

Remember, people can't even have an intelligent discussion about GW I-III without it breaking down. Why would GW IV be any different?

FF: I have long ago admitted that \m/ as an alliance made mistakes and that among those mistakes was not reigning in those that abused the raiding regulations fast enough. Individual nations were responsible for crimes ranging from extortion to all but forcing people to re-roll in order escape. As a result, the coalition that was assembled against the UjP was larger than it otherwise would have been. But \m/ as an alliance was no monster...or rabid dog either. There was good with the bad and I always believed that reform was possible.

One final point on this topic before moving on: the Old Regime of NpO was removed from power as a result of the War of the Coalition. That was the primary objective of the war, along with reducing BLEU in power and influence. It was mission accomplished all around. The True Polaris Believers would like people to think that because Polaris didn't disband that *they* won a victory. They "won" nothing, they lost everything. If Polaris survived, it was because those attacking it had no desire to kill it as an alliance. Those that remained at Polaris post-war were survivors, not winners. I was pleased with how Polaris moved on from that war. Grub did a wonderful job. Such a good job, I personally pushed through a MDoAP between Ragnarok and NpO. The world had changed. Sadly, all too often old war veterans don't.

[OneBallMan]

It's interesting that NPO would work to save you, TPF, but when it came to its loyal allies at \m/, people who were as much a victim of the events of August as anyone else, and in no way responsible for the infamous OOC stuff involving Bilrow, we were S.O.L.

"Fine service you gave during GW II & III, here are your walking papers."

(\m/ pokes around inside the envelope at some $100 bills) "But, we never wavered in our loyalty to you."

It was a scene out of a Mafia movie. You knew the hitman was marked for death and he'd never get to spend even one cent of that money in the envelope.

TPF lived...and served well as one of \m/'s replacements right up until the Karma War. Valhalla was arguably the other.

The crimes that \m/ were actually guilty of can be summed up as follows: some of our members were young, liked the whole faux gangster image, and liked to hang out with GOONS. That was pretty much it. We didn't host a porn site, that was GOONS. We didn't hunt down Bilrow's personal information, that was GOONS. Indeed there were a lot of crimes that people always assumed \m/ was guilty of that simply weren't true. Oh we did tech raid...so did several dozen other alliances in that era both aligned and unaligned, large and small. Indeed by today's standards \m/ raiding policy was at best moderate, in some ways rather conservative.

Regarding Sponge's threats, you only had to look at what happened to GOONS 1.0 to know what fate \m/ and Gen[m]ay would have faced had they tried to hold out. \m/ wasn't built to "go FAN" and even if we had been the sort that thought universal large warchests were important we simply wouldn't have tolerated being locked up in Peace Mode for the next year (perhaps more). Disbanding was what was best for us, and by disbanding we assured there would be enough of us around to get some payback a year later--which of course we did.

Hmmm... I struggle with parts of this. Your painting of Pacifica of throwing out \m/ with the trash leaves out a couple of salient points in relation to the events of that period. A swath of \m/ leadership one day were no longer on Planet Bob. The stories and lies that were flying around in the days that followed left a clear impression, imho, that \m/ and GOONs leadership were colored with the guilt. There was much bawwing and screaming from all corners, with unfortunate plans and schemes being discussed, all of which was even more distasteful. That some of those who disappeared, from a \m/ perspective, returned later, well because of my faith in Moderation, well I see that as evidence that their bawwing was justified. But for most, it wasn't. From my mind, at that time, and I will project it onto Pacifica, both GOONs and \m/ were tainted by their actions, their association and the rhetoric that followed.

I have a lot of hard feelings towards Pacifica, but I can't lay the destruction of \m/ at their feet. The combination of Sponge's Crusade and the loss of leadership are far more causal.

[flak attack]

From being around, I know they were presented with terms.

FAN wasn't, and GATO only was after a far longer time at war than \m/. It took FAN almost a year and a half and GATO three months. \m/ fought for 10 days. GPA went longer without terms than \m/.