Athens Announcement

[Alicia]

Even if evidence was provided someone from tsi or mhawk would find a way to twist it all up or claim that it was fabricated!

OMG who would think of doing something like that

That is a terrible argument.

[JackSkellington]

Even if evidence was provided someone from tsi or mhawk would find a way to twist it all up or claim that it was fabricated!

OMG who would think of doing something like that

Medtech, that works both ways. Athens has been attempting to twist up generally everything that doesn't work with what they are saying. It's the way politics work for the most part.

[citizenkane]

That is a terrible argument.

No actually, its not, inaction is often better than any course of action, especially in politics

[medtech]

Medtech, that works both ways. Athens has been attempting to twist up generally everything that doesn't work with what they are saying. It's the way politics work for the most part.

Ya know it's all in how you read it! And no matter what is said or not said someone will find a way to twist is all around!

So why bother.

From what I have seen with cancelations is there is truely no win in how you word it. The thread will be scrutinized and feelings will be hurt and enemies and speculations will be made.

That seems to be the way of the owf in general.

No one seems to be having fun unless there is drama and the drama gets fed upon "IMO" in hopes to strike up a war. After all what fun would this be with out a lil hash slinging and bomb dropping?

edited: cuz I didn't know any better

Edited August 31, 2009 by medtech

[Jack Diorno]

It's still an assumption and one not founded on evidence - I don't call people liars or accuse them of betrayal without actually having something to back it up.

The Menotah incident was insignificant, if that was the only problem we wouldn't of assumed it was TSI or even cared.

The first half is, as I read it, related to an incident where information was leaked by Londo to a third party who then passed it along. The problem is that the evidence was not in fact leaked by Shurukian despite what he assumed at first. He and I spoke on the matter and it was resolved within twenty-four hours once he had a chance to speak with Shurukian. The matter was then buried and moved along since people generally accepted that they had all overreacted. For what it's worth he showed me records of the conversation he assumed had sparked the leak - he later admitted to being incorrect on the matter. I take issue with that resolved matter now being used in some backhanded attempt to paint another alliance as some sort of betrayer while boosting the public image of Athens in the process.

The first half is a reference to Londo and Shuru having a conversation about the hardships Athens faced after the NoCB war, which was then used against athens as a catalyst for 'Athens seeking revenge against the NPO', used by Mhawk during the peace terms being sorted out, trying to paint Londo as a revenge driven maniac, which he certainly is not.

I've asked for evidence to be provided as well as commenting on the conduct of Londo and your alliance - frankly, I used to think extremely highly of Athens. Hell, I was the primary driving force behind this treaty. Londo was a very good friend to The Sasori Initiative in the beginning when lines of communication were open. Then, before the commencement of the Karma War, things suddenly changed and the leader I got to know during the Coalition War changed tune. If anything, I find this to be profoundly disappointing.

Londo has been the pinnacle of honour in this world and he has my eternal worship, any changes that you noticed would be due to the hardships he faced during the karma war, trying to sort out peace while being faced with a propaganda campaign sent out against him from roller of hard sixes himself.

Even heroes needs a break.

You say that you both know what The Sasori Initiative did but that you cannot prove it due to logistical problems. The honor of your alliance is not at stake here - your alliance's conduct and credibility is. Athens started this mess - will it bother to clean it up and put this to bed?

There is no mess to clean up.

[Phoenix2392]

Ya know it's all in how you read it! And no matter what is said or not said someone will find a way to twist is all around!

So why bother.

From what I have seen with cancelations is there is truely no win in how you word it. The thread will be scrutinized and feelings will be hurt and enemies and speculations will be made.

That seems to be the way of the owf in general.

No one seems to be having fun unless there is drama and the drama gets fed upon "IMO" in hopes to strike up a war. After all what fun would this be with out a lil hash slinging and bomb dropping?

It wouldn't be fun at all my friend. None at all :/

Edited August 31, 2009 by Phoenix2392

[Dochartaigh]

hahahahahahahaha. amusing thread is amusing.

seriously, this is an amazing show of people beating their heads into brickwalls that i have seen. The sheer massiveness of it is startling.

we have on one side- Athens and their allies who believe Athens. On the other we have TSI and their allies who believe them. In the middle we have people who are leaning to one side or the other based on whom they like more for whatever reasons. Guess what, evidence is arbitrary. It ain't gonna affect much in the short or long run.

but just for !@#$ and giggles, mhawk, produce the log dumps where Mary told you whatever Londo said Shuru told you. I am sure Londo and Athens will confirm if what was said is true or not.

[Londo Mollari]

The first half is, as I read it, related to an incident where information was leaked by Londo to a third party who then passed it along. The problem is that the evidence was not in fact leaked to Shurukian despite what he assumed at first. He and I spoke on the matter and it was resolved within twenty-four hours once he had a chance to speak with Shurukian. The matter was then buried and moved along since people generally accepted that they had all overreacted. For what it's worth he showed me records of the conversation he assumed had sparked the leak - he later admitted to being incorrect on the matter. I take issue with that resolved matter now being used in some backhanded attempt to paint another alliance as some sort of betrayer while boosting the public image of Athens in the process.

I was willing to give TSI the benefit of the doubt and let things die at that time. Shuru wasn't the only member of TSI. You were there as well and it was clear that you were very concerned with TSI's honor. After the Menotah incident, we went back and looked at what had happened and changed our minds about giving Shuru the benefit of the doubt - which appears to have been very much justified both by our own analysis and by TPF's little slip up in the thread here

[Jerry Kellerman]

Ya know it's all in how you read it! And no matter what is said or not said someone will find a way to twist is all around!

So why bother.

From what I have seen with cancelations is there is truely no win in how you word it. The thread will be trolled and feelings will be hurt and enemies and speculations will be made.

That seems to be the way of the owf in general.

No one seems to be having fun unless there is drama and the drama gets fed upon "IMO" in hopes to strike up a war. After all what fun would CN be with out a lil hash slinging and bomb dropping?

Athens could have just canceled and said that there was a lack of communication and left it at that. Then there might have been a few speculators as to the real reason, but most would have accepted that being on the opposite sides of the Karma War was sufficient cause to cancel.

Instead, Athens accused TSI of leaking private information. This potentially jeopardizes TSI's abilities to find future allies. For a serious charge such as this one, Athens needs to provide evidence.

Again, if Athens would not have made the charge, people would not be scrutinizing this decision and asking for proof.

[Augustus Autumn]

The Menotah incident was insignificant, if that was the only problem we wouldn't of assumed it was TSI or even cared.

Then why raise it if it's so insignificant? The only reason I can conjure was to attempt to toss on more ammo in the hope that something would strike.

The first half is a reference to Londo and Shuru having a conversation about the hardships Athens faced after the NoCB war, which was then used against athens as a catalyst for 'Athens seeking revenge against the NPO', used by Mhawk during the peace terms being sorted out, trying to paint Londo as a revenge driven maniac, which he certainly is not.

And that conversation was never shared - Londo made statements to another person who then spoke with mhawk and Londo assumed that the information given out was due to his much earlier conversation with Shurukian. As I have repeatedly said, he and I spoke on the issue and the matter was resolved reasonably within twenty-four hours. All parties involved agreed that there had been an overreaction (including one by myself) and that an issue had been made from nothing.

Londo has been the pinnacle of honour in this world and he has my eternal worship, any changes that you noticed would be due to the hardships he faced during the karma war, trying to sort out peace while being faced with a propaganda campaign sent out against him from roller of hard sixes himself.

Again, I have not asserted that Athens acts without honor. I have asserted that the alliance's credibility is now on the line. Those two things are not the same.

Even heroes needs a break.

What precisely does that mean in the context of this discussion?

There is no mess to clean up.

Eleven pages of discussion indicates otherwise.

I was willing to give TSI the benefit of the doubt and let things die at that time. Shuru wasn't the only member of TSI. You were there as well and it was clear that you were very concerned with TSI's honor. After the Menotah incident, we went back and looked at what had happened and changed our minds about giving Shuru the benefit of the doubt - which appears to have been very much justified both by our own analysis and by TPF's little slip up in the thread here

You're very correct that I was concerned with The Sasori Initiative's honor which is why I worked so hard to get the matter resolved in a timely fashion - as I said, I valued the treaty both alliances held and was mindful of conduct on both sides of the fence. From what was said by both sides, the matter was put to bed once the course of events had been made clear and both sides agreed that there had been overreactions.

Now, well after the fact, that incident has been dragged back up by yourself and repainted as some sort of terrible betrayal despite your acknowledgment that such a betrayal did not in fact take place. This is the problem I have with this entire situation - a matter that was settled was well and good until you needed some ammunition and then you dragged it back up to take a potshot. I'm even a little confused as to what precisely Athens stood to gain the second you and others began evading the "Please present evidence" requests. What's done is done, not a soul is arguing that. The conduct shown here, attempting to place a black mark on The Sasori Initiative for personal gain, is simply unbecoming of you. You're a better person than this.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[mythicknight]

I'll go ahead and congratulate Athens here.

[Jack Diorno]

Then why raise it if it's so insignificant? The only reason I can conjure was to attempt to toss on more ammo in the hope that something would strike.

Insignificant enough alone that it doesn't matter, coupled with another incident and it does.

And that conversation was never shared - Londo made statements to another person who then spoke with mhawk and Londo assumed that the information given out was due to his much earlier conversation with Shurukian. As I have repeatedly said, he and I spoke on the issue and the matter was resolved reasonably within twenty-four hours. All parties involved agreed that there had been an overreaction (including one by myself) and that an issue had been made from nothing.

Who? Londo gave Shuru the benefit of the doubt and just dropped it untill later when we reevaluted the situation.

Eleven pages of discussion indicates otherwise.

With the political climate as it is currently, stumpy could make a thread on his potato bake and it would cause a massive argument spewing forth for over 10 pages.

[Augustus Autumn]

Insignificant enough alone that it doesn't matter, coupled with another incident and it does.

Coupled with another assumption it simply makes a bigger assumption - it doesn't mean it's correct. Saying "it's insignificant but we'll use this too" falls under the icing-on-the-cake mentality. The problem here is that the cake may not be ready to be iced.

Who? Londo gave Shuru the benefit of the doubt and just dropped it untill later when we reevaluted the situation.

The third party has already been named in this thread (Mary). As for the situation being "reevaluated" that would also imply some sort of discussion which has been noted to have not taken place in over a month. What could have just as easily happened would have been to say that Athens had reevaluated some events and had decided to cancel its treaty - instead your alliance made allegations against The Sasori Initiative which could not have been designed in any other way than to be a sticking point for the Initiative's foreign affairs. You and yours chose to take a cheap shot and its now fallen short. When called to task the approach has been to twist, turn and then make vague references to heroes needing time off as some sort of poor justification.

With the political climate as it is currently, stumpy could make a thread on his potato bake and it would cause a massive argument spewing forth for over 10 pages.

Alright, you got a laugh out of me with that one. Well played.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[philp110]

The third party has already been named in this thread (Mary). As for the situation being "reevaluated" that would also imply some sort of discussion which has been noted to have not taken place in over a month.

I'll preface this by saying I am a compete stranger to all alliances in this discussion and could not care less of the outcome.

For your own clarification, Londo specifically stated the situation was temporarily resolved where he assumed he had told Mary "x." After looking over the logs more carefully, the "x" was never spoken about with Mary, so logically the only person who knew of this at the time would be Shuru, and therefore it would be Shuru, not Mary, who spoke with Mhawk.

Here:

I have [OOC]logs I could dump[/OOC]. They prove that I told Shuru something that had spread like wildfire throughout the backwoods of Planet Bob one day later, so much that a fellow allied alliance leader came to me and told me what was going down. I went back through all my logs pretty frantically, trying to see where I had said what I was accused of saying. I found them (mostly complete, if slightly distorted, you know how rumors are), in a query log with Shuru. Mhawk and Shuru later claimed that Shuru had not told Mhawk, but rather Mary the Fantabulous, and Mary had told him. Problem is, nothing I said in Mary's presence jives with the rumors that were going around. I looked carefully over every log I could find, didn't jive at all.

We let it go. We weren't completely sure what had happened. It looked bad, but Shuru protested her innocence and we figured maybe something had been said somewhere that I hadn't found. We let it go. Then the same darn thing happened ....

Edited August 31, 2009 by phillip110

[Augustus Autumn]

I'll preface this by saying I am a compete stranger to all alliances in this discussion and could not care less of the outcome.

For your own clarification, Londo specifically stated the situation was temporarily resolved where he assumed he had told Mary "x." After looking over the logs more carefully, the "x" was never spoken about with Mary, so logically the only person who knew of this at the time would be Shuru, and therefore it would be Shuru, not Mary, who spoke with Mhawk.

Here:

It was in a general chat, not in a query - records of the conversation would not reflect this as they do not track persons present at the time.

[Teriethien]

No actually, its not, inaction is often better than any course of action, especially in politics

It's still a terrible argument to bring up. And responding in this thread is hardly inaction.

[WorkingClassRuler]

Is this a hint that you want to take it to the next level, Athens?

[Jack Diorno]

Is this a hint that you want to take it to the next level, Athens?

hmmm?

EDIT: What I meant to say was, WCR, I don't quiet understand your expression in this instance, I know your a fine classy gentleman and would like to be included in the humor of your statement but I feel i need further explanation because I am missing the punchline

EDIT2: Rsox explained your joke to me, and I'd upgrade with crush anyday, you though.. well.. i hear your country uses macs instead of PCs

Edited August 31, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[citizenkane]

It's still a terrible argument to bring up. And responding in this thread is hardly inaction.

Response to what is, essentially propaganda from the other side

[Haflinger]

What does Athens think TSI told TPF during the Menotah incident that wasn't already widely known?

Tons of people knew what was going on then; pretty much anyone who was close to a CDT alliance or TOOL knew what was up. And yeah, that includes TPF.

[AgentofChaos]

No actually, its not, inaction is often better than any course of action, especially in politics

It actually really is. You're not trying to convince them, you're trying to convince us. You'll never convince them. We, however, are easily convinced by somebody wearing sexy lingerie...I mean evidence!

[janax]

As noted in the OP, TSI abused our trust on 2 seperate occasisions, the menotah incident was the 2nd time, TSI may not of been behind it, but granted what happened the first time around and the closeness of TPF and TSI we assumed it.

Weird...I knew all about it, and generally avoid contact with TSI. I wonder how mhawk could have found out....wondering...wondering.... Could it be the same way I found out? You know, that whole MDoAP with TOOL? Nah. Too easy. One must always look for the least likely round-about way for something to have occured instead of the direct line.

Either way, congrats to someone for something that occured in this thread that I really don't care about, yet still feel obligated to point out the obvious for,

[Jack Diorno]

Weird...I knew all about it, and generally avoid contact with TSI. I wonder how mhawk could have found out....wondering...wondering.... Could it be the same way I found out? You know, that whole MDoAP with TOOL? Nah. Too easy. One must always look for the least likely round-about way for something to have occured instead of the direct line.

Either way, congrats to someone for something that occured in this thread that I really don't care about, yet still feel obligated to point out the obvious for,

And what did you find out about? If you say Menotah I'll punch a little orphan from my country square in the face, cos I just spent the best part of royal advisers lunchbreak getting him to explain its not about menotah.

[Locke]

And what did you find out about? If you say Menotah I'll punch a little orphan from my country square in the face, cos I just spent the best part of royal advisers lunchbreak getting him to explain its not about menotah.

However, it was either you or Londo (maybe both ) that said that the only reason the original inicident was put under further scrutiny was because of the Menotah thing. If that isn't a good reason to reevaluate the original incident, what is?

In any event, I think it's pretty clear this treaty should have been dropped, regardless of who's right or wrong.

[Jack Diorno]

However, it was either you or Londo (maybe both ) that said that the only reason the original inicident was put under further scrutiny was because of the Menotah thing. If that isn't a good reason to reevaluate the original incident, what is?

In any event, I think it's pretty clear this treaty should have been dropped, regardless of who's right or wrong.

I would probably say its my fault, I tend to overreact like a little girl who has dropped her ice cream sometimes, and people listen to me when my thoughts are terrible for some reason