Athens Announcement

[The Big Bad]

Uh, no. We didn't "make anything up".

Just a little bit, come on, its ok. Admit it and move on. We all know it already.

Edited September 1, 2009 by The Big Bad

[Londo Mollari]

Oh, and I think you should include the full log, if you want to cut and paste.

14:03… Londo: I'm glad to be doing what I am to NPO

14:03… Londo: they deserve it

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

Hail Londo, self claimed merciful hero of NPO o/

Hey, that's classy. No more than I have come to expect from TPF and its camp followers.

[mhawk]

Hey, that's classy. No more than I have come to expect from TPF and its camp followers.

Well "TPF and its camp of followers" didn't start a topic about this.

You play stupid games londo, you win stupid prizes. Here is yours.

[Freelancer]

The Big Bad has come out of retirement for this, damn, Shatternman you wouldn't happen to have any juicy logs running around to really spice things up now would ya .. ?

[AgentofChaos]

Now I have been arguing "against" Athens this whole thread but TPF you need to back off on that. It's simply pointless. The feelings he presented were entirely warranted given his history and also represented the feelings of many people in the Karma War.

So, lay off because that he felt NPO deserved a beating proves nothing besides that he doesn't like people who pummel him and his friends and then enforce harsh penalties on them afterwards.

[kingzog]

Memo to Athens: Jack Diorno's selective use of logs? Yeah....do yourselves a favor and slap some duct tape over his mouth before he embarrasses you guys any further.

I'll stick with what I surmised earlier. Something may have been leaked, but Athens is almost certainly accusing the wrong folks. And none of it matters since the treaty was going to be canceled regardless.

The only thing of consequence here is that Athens has put together such a rotten case that I'm agreeing with TBB.

[anenu]

A quick tl:dr for people skipping to this page without reading the beginning:

Athens: We cancel on TSI due to them sharing information that we gave them. They aren't honorable.

TSI: What proof do you have Londo?

Londo: ?????????

TSI: Here are our logs Londo is a lying just to gain PR points.

Londo: No U.

I think you just made the best argument on why Athens believes TSI did pass information and that is that we believed it enough to post it. If we were only minorly suspicious it never would have been posted as their are no PR points to be gained from this as people who are allied to them will only complain and those who were told the information will only praise their loyalty to their allies. We told what we believed and we believed it because any person who thinks logically would believe that when an enemy (or in this case someone with whom a close ally is at war with) gets information that you only told your treaty partners it makes the most sense that the person with a close treaty with this advisory told them the information.

TL:DR Athens had nothing to gain by posting this reason and nobody who we cared about would believe it anyway so either we believe it 99% or are entire PR department is a bunch of noobs which through this entire thread people have been praising.

[Londo Mollari]

Well "TPF and its camp of followers" didn't start a topic about this.

You play stupid games londo, you win stupid prizes. Here is yours.

You may not have brought this discussion up, but your allies actions' are the reason we are having it.

There is no point arguing about this anymore. Let people believe what they want. We know what we saw happen.

[The Big Bad]

Hey, that's classy. No more than I have come to expect from TPF and its camp followers.

You opened this can of worms Londo. You made public claims and you knew you had nothing to back them up with. Maybe Planet Bob has gotten soft and let such things go unchallenged as of late. If that is the case, then things have just changed. The Bad is back baby and their is going to be hell to pay.

[mhawk]

Now I have been arguing "against" Athens this whole thread but TPF you need to back off on that. It's simply pointless. The feelings he presented were entirely warranted given his history and also represented the feelings of many people in the Karma War.

So, lay off because that he felt NPO deserved a beating proves nothing besides that he doesn't like people who pummel him and his friends and then enforce harsh penalties on them afterwards.

Then he should stick to it, like revanche, hell that guy's name is the very philosophy of revenge, he never made two different stances. Londo played the PR trying to be the merciful guy that wanted easier terms ect, then he is bragging how he is glad he stuck to his guns to get revenge and held onto the 2 weeks of war as part of surrender terms (if you look at the timeline).

[Bjornoya]

TL:DR Athens had nothing to gain by posting this reason and nobody who we cared about would believe it anyway so either we believe it 99% or are entire PR department is a bunch of noobs which through this entire thread people have been praising.

By dragging our alliance's name through the mud they had plenty to gain and little to lose unless the community actually cared wither or not their accusations had merit.

[AgentofChaos]

Then he should stick to it, like revanche, hell that guy's name is the very philosophy of revenge, he never made two different stances. Londo played the PR trying to be the merciful guy that wanted easier terms ect, then he is bragging how he is glad he stuck to his guns to get revenge and held onto the 2 weeks of war as part of surrender terms (if you look at the timeline).

I think the logs in question show him stating that NPO deserved the beating, not that they deserved this surrender term or the other. So...why are you bringing this up?

[Matthew Conrad]

Oh, and I think you should include the full log, if you want to cut and paste.

These logs could easily refer to the actual war and nothing to do with NPO's terms. Do you have actual logs that suggest otherwise?

[Londo Mollari]

Then he should stick to it, like revanche, hell that guy's name is the very philosophy of revenge, he never made two different stances. Londo played the PR trying to be the merciful guy that wanted easier terms ect, then he is bragging how he is glad he stuck to his guns to get revenge and held onto the 2 weeks of war as part of surrender terms (if you look at the timeline).

For all the rancor you may see in those logs, and all the reasons I had to loathe NPO, I was nevertheless much more inclined to leniency than just about any other leader in Karma, as people in the know have stated over and over again. That is also why it took so godawful long for terms to come out that everyone would sign.

[James Maximus]

I think the logs in question show him stating that NPO deserved the beating, not that they deserved this surrender term or the other. So...why are you bringing this up?

Londo was pushing for them to come out of peace mode, have 3 more weeks of war and THEN have reps. We all know he wanted revenge so what exactly are you trying to prove here?

[anenu]

By dragging our alliance's name through the mud they had plenty to gain and little to lose unless the community actually cared wither or not their accusations had merit.

What do we have to gain? Would your alliance suddenly be like "O NOES WE SHARED INFORMATION" and disband? Would your allies that i believe you shared info to suddenly decide you weren't worth treating to? Would the people who hate us for standing against them when they held the power suddenly see how much of a hypocrite they have been?

This is not the community this is what 5 alliances that have nearly always held an anti Athens stance plus some former TSI members and others who hate us for a variety of reasons.

[Shurukian]

These logs could easily refer to the actual war and nothing to do with NPO's terms. Do you have actual logs that suggest otherwise?

I was referring to the early on portion, as was bolded, to show that Jack's claim was incorrect. I have no intention, or will, to prove that Athens had some scheme. Frankly, I don't really care what he meant by it. I'm not about to go after him for it, either. My point was made that Londo was speaking of an earlier time of Athens. Jack just apparently led me to a point that he probably shouldn't have.

[Matthew Conrad]

Londo was pushing for them to come out of peace mode, have 3 more weeks of war and THEN have reps. We all know he wanted revenge so what exactly are you trying to prove here?

This was the agreed upon initial terms from all leaders on that front. Londo was acting as a representative. We all agreed to the terms and to suggest Londo was personally pushing harsh reps alone is curious to say the least. Good to know blatant disregard of details still isn't out of character for some.

I wonder how much more upset you would be if Londo didn't try to bring together actual terms in the time he managed to do so.

[Matthew Conrad]

I was referring to the early on portion, as was bolded, to show that Jack's claim was incorrect. I have no intention, or will, to prove that Athens had some scheme. Frankly, I don't really care what he meant by it. I'm not about to go after him for it, either. My point was made that Londo was speaking of an earlier time of Athens. Jack just apparently led me to a point that he probably shouldn't have.

Sorry about that, my post was mainly aimed at mhawk's interpretation.

[Eric Cantona]

Back on topic, fellas. NOW. I've warned a few of you already and I don't mind doing it again.

[Londo Mollari]

Londo was pushing for them to come out of peace mode, have 3 more weeks of war and THEN have reps. We all know he wanted revenge so what exactly are you trying to prove here?

I wasn't pushing for anything but what Karma wanted. I got to the point that I just wanted to be able to give NPO a set of terms they could live with enough to sign. That was the extent of my desires. Try talking when you actually know something next time.

EDIT: [OOC]I hope that this post is considered on topic, as it relates to the reason for the treaty cancellation.[/OOC]

Edited September 1, 2009 by Londo Mollari

[AgentofChaos]

Londo was pushing for them to come out of peace mode, have 3 more weeks of war and THEN have reps. We all know he wanted revenge so what exactly are you trying to prove here?

I have no knowledge of what he pushed for elsewhere, merely what those logs state and they state nothing about surrender terms. He was using them as proof that Londo was using surrender terms for revenge. Again, that may be so but it was certainly not shown there.

And even those terms are certainly better than what a lot of people wanted (this, again, is not from experience merely me guessing based off of feelings towards NPO by many at the time).

[mhawk]

Really TSI is better off without Athens, have a good one fellas.

Edited September 1, 2009 by mhawk

[anenu]

Edit - Getting back on topic because we strayed

HAIL ADMIN

Edited September 1, 2009 by anenu

[Nintenderek]

The fact that a topic as simple as this got to 17 pages amazes me. Clearly, there was a lot of miscommunication between these two alliances. Both alliances blame the other side. However, the simple fact is that if they are both blaming the other side (which is what I get from reading 5 pages of this crap) then clearly neither side should care enough about the treaty to actually be arguing that they are right and the other side is wrong. Maybe that's just my opinion, but it seems like common sense to me.