VE congratulates im317 and Eledan!

[Penguin]

Heh, nice choice of spheres there. Red was under Moldavi, Black was under GOONland, and the war was partially started because VE tried to encroach on Black. Plenty of other spheres to choose from.

If given the choice between moving off Red or disbanding, would you consider moving off Red a valid option? I know we would have sooner disbanded than left Blue when we were facing the firing squad last summer. Green was part of VE's identity and I really don't think it's fair to disqualify their tragedy on such a minor technicality.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Penguin

[Hell Scream]

If the membership represent the alliance (and I'm not saying they don't) why does it have to be the minority that represents the alliance? The majority of VE including their government did not participate in this. So why is it that the few represent the many? I'm sure just about every alliance has a few members that, if the alliance's reputation was staked on their actions, would make Planet Bob strongly dislike that alliance.

Have you seen anyone within the Entente oppose this?

[Hell Scream]

If given the choice between moving off Red or disbanding, would you consider moving off Red a valid option? I know we would have sooner disbanded than left Blue when we were facing the firing squad last summer. Green was part of VE's identity and I really don't think it's fair to disqualify their tragedy on such a minor technicality.

VE disbanded because it was afraid of losing infra, I was there.

Remember how VE came back on blue?

[WorldConqueror]

VE disbanded because it was afraid of losing infra, I was there.

Remember how VE came back on blue?

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that. If green was such a big part of VE's identity, why were they happy to reform and not be a green alliance?

[Penguin]

VE disbanded because it was afraid of losing infra, I was there.

Remember how VE came back on blue?

VE was reformed by a merger of a couple of Polaris' blue team protectorates (commonly considered to be VE splinters) combined with old members scattered across the rest of the globe. They were allowed to reform on the condition that no more than 50% of their members could be on the Green team, but I believe even then they considered themselves a Green alliance. They were always close to the limit as I recall, and they soon worked things out with GGA to rejoin their home sphere officially. I remember quite well because Polaris was fairly close to both GGA and VE at the time.

As I was not around when VE disbanded I cannot comment on your first quip. Nonetheless, I know plenty of alliances that do not consider a team change to be a viable option. Mine is one of them and I am betting that yours is another.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Penguin

[WorldConqueror]

Yes, so they were happy with being less than 50% green. Why couldn't they move and leave some members on green in the GCW?

EDIT: Also, wasn't being an active alliance a big part of VE's identity?

Edited August 26, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Hell Scream]

VE was reformed by a merger of a couple of Polaris' blue team protectorates (commonly considered to be VE splinters) combined with old members scattered across the rest of the globe. They were allowed to reform on the condition that no more than 50% of their members could be on the Green team, but I believe even then they considered themselves a Green alliance. They were always close to the limit as I recall, and they soon worked things out with GGA to rejoin their home sphere officially. I remember because Polaris was fairly close to both GGA and VE at the time.

As I was not around when VE disbanded I cannot comment on your first quip. Nonetheless, I know plenty of alliances that do not consider a team change to be a viable option. Mine is one of them and I am betting that yours is another.

You do not need to educate me on history I was part of. About 25 percent of VE was green, and it was officially a BLUE alliance at the time of the DoE, and was never intended to go back to green.

[Penguin]

Yes, so they were happy with being less than 50% green. Why couldn't they move and leave some members on green in the GCW?

I feel weird speaking for an alliance that isn't my own and that I know little about. I would have to guess that they weren't fine with the GGA arrangement but accepted it in order to reform and tweaked it later. I think we're off on a tangent here, but my main point is that presenting an alliance that identifies strongly with its color (VE, NpO, NPO to name a few) with the option of abandoning the color or disbanding, seems far more "tragic" than an alliance voluntary disbanding under no foreign pressure. I don't understand why you would want to dispute this other than a natural debate reflex where you have become entrenched in your own opinions. You can express your distaste for this joke at CG's expense without likening it to the disbandment of VE.

You do not need to educate me on history I was part of. About 25 percent of VE was green, and it was officially a BLUE alliance at the time of the DoE, and was never intended to go back to green.

That's possible; you would know better than I. Perhaps the reformed VE did not feel as strongly about its sphere as the original. Perhaps months of non-existence had softened VE to the idea of existing elsewhere. Perhaps the original VE disbanded for other reasons than the demands at the end of the Green Civil War. Perhaps WorldConqueror is right and there is nothing inherently tragic about demanding alliances relocate spheres or disband. I think the answers to these questions require a Viridian.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Penguin

[WorldConqueror]

I feel weird speaking for an alliance that isn't my own and that I know little about. I would have to guess that they weren't fine with the GGA arrangement but accepted it in order to reform and tweaked it later. I think we're off on a tangent here, but my main point is that presenting an alliance that identifies strongly with its color (VE, NpO, NPO to name a few) with the option of abandoning the color or disbanding, seems far more "tragic" than an alliance voluntary disbanding under no foreign pressure. I don't know why you would want to dispute this other than a natural debate reflex to become entrenched in your own opinions.

That's possible; you would know better than I. Perhaps the reformed VE did not feel as strongly about its sphere than the original. Perhaps the original VE disbanded for other reasons. Perhaps WorldConqueror is right and there is nothing inherently tragic about demanding alliances relocate spheres or disband. I think the answers to these questions require a Viridian.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I just started arguing about this because of people who thought that CG disbanding was funny, but that VE disbanding was some horrible atrocity. And yeah, a lot of it is because I am in debate mode, because of the other thread. So I'm not saying that you have to feel the same about every alliance that disbands, but you should not poke fun at people because their alliance disbanded.

[Penguin]

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I just started arguing about this because of people who thought that CG disbanding was funny, but that VE disbanding was some horrible atrocity. And yeah, a lot of it is because I am in debate mode, because of the other thread. So I'm not saying that you have to feel the same about every alliance that disbands, but you should not poke fun at people because their alliance disbanded.

Well, I'd say given that I didn't find the OP all that humorous (though not on par with a forced disbandment) and neither did VE's leader, I guess there is not much room left for us to disagree.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Penguin

[Telchar]

This thread is funny on quite many levels. Thanks for the laughs!

[Litha Riddle]

I'd like to note that this was not endorsed by the government of VE, nor did any Parliament member participate. It's an example of the freedom that our members enjoy. I for one do not like dancing on graves as we were once in that state, but then not everybody in the alliance was around for that either.

Thank you for this Cornelius, I know younger members wont remember but its good to know that the older ones haven't forgotten.

Disbandment is never an easy option, and it should not be something that is treated lightly. Maybe there is hope for Bob to show some empathy.

[Bill Wallace]

I'll admit that this wasn't a good PR move, but Fran is not looked upon fondly by many members of VE for many reasons. For me, it's because she actually aided an NPO nation while we were at war with them and then she left our alliance in the middle of the war. She'll tell you that she fought and bled for VE, but so what!? I went from 5000 infra down to 127 infra at one point taking nukes daily with none of my own to fire back. A lot of us bled for VE and to witness Fran abandoning us and aiding the enemy was aggravating at the very least. So yeah, 15 out of 260 people thought it would be fun to bet on when CG's demise would happen. Again, possibly bad form to post it here, but I've seen worse.

[Hell Scream]

I'll admit that this wasn't a good PR move, but Fran is not looked upon fondly by many members of VE for many reasons. For me, it's because she actually aided an NPO nation while we were at war with them and then she left our alliance in the middle of the war. She'll tell you that she fought and bled for VE, but so what!? I went from 5000 infra down to 127 infra at one point taking nukes daily with none of my own to fire back. A lot of us bled for VE and to witness Fran abandoning us and aiding the enemy was aggravating at the very least. So yeah, 15 out of 260 people thought it would be fun to bet on when CG's demise would happen. Again, possibly bad form to post it here, but I've seen worse.

"I've seen worse" is not an excuse.

Francesca called out VE on their hypocrisy. Preaching against something and doing it in the end, for one thing. Fran was only 1/13th of CG.

[Ardus]

This may be the most hilarious thread to come out of Viridia I've ever seen. Kudos.

[Seerow]

VE scored several points in my eyes from this thread. And frankly all the bawwing about it and them still defending themselves on it rather than folding scores yet more.

Good show VE, stay classy.

(And hey unlike most people saying that I'm not being sarcastic!)

[Goldie]

the people in npo and others who are really crying about this miss the point. i was apathetic toward CG. i wanted to keep them at arms length at best, but i am not happy to see them disband. but thats not what this bet was about.

please listen to me when i say this, because there are a lot of people expressing outrage at something that has nothing to do with this thread.

the thread was about that this disbandment was easily predicted, the second they formed. its because people like fran (and to a much lesser extent hellscream) hop alliances, and the guess was that she would hop this one before 2 months were behind them.

she of course did, and this thread isnt to poke fun at those who are now homeless/had to move on elsewhere, its to show the sheer hypocrisy coming out of fran and hs (two outspoken anti npo people leaving their alliance to join... npo) and to show that there are some people who like to join an alliance that they feel they personally align with, and then grow roots in it and embrace the alliance, and stay around for months and then years. those are the people that you grow to trust and respect. then there are the people who have a personality that just doesnt mesh with alliance politics and they are always looking for the flaws in their alliance either to exploit for their own personal advancement to satiate some kind of power drive, or to use them as an excuse that maybe the grass is greener on the other side.

the point of this thread was to show that a person of the latter group, fran, thought the grass would be greenest in their own alliance. this person, a vox spy in mcxa, who joined ve without telling us that she was a spy when she was in mcxa until she was outed, then proceeded to fight a round of war, then aid the enemy, and then desert during the heavy operations part of the war. im sorry if i have no respect for this person, and no respect for her attempts to find the greenest grass out there, because sadly she will never find it, as npo will soon find out.

[James Wilson]

Saying you're overjoyed that an alliance disbanded while pretending to be morally outraged over a bet people made on when they would disband? Riiight. That makes sense.

I am not pretending to be morally outraged. No, I'm outraged that members of an alliance who had disbanded once long ago,decided to go and make public their bet about when an alliance with someone they hate in it disbanded. I used Hell Scream as an example so, me = VE members who don't like Fran and HS = Fran. I hate HS like they hate Fran but I'm not going to go out of my way to beat a literal dead horse because I didn't like one of the members in it.

Nice try to make me look like a hypocrite, but I'm not.

[Seerow]

I am not pretending to be morally outraged. No, I'm outraged that members of an alliance who had disbanded once long ago,decided to go and make public their bet about when an alliance with someone they hate in it disbanded. I used Hell Scream as an example so, me = VE members who don't like Fran and HS = Fran. I hate HS like they hate Fran but I'm not going to go out of my way to beat a literal dead horse because I didn't like one of the members in it.

Nice try to make me look like a hypocrite, but I'm not.

You and everyone else is missing that VE's disbandment was a completely different situation. They were forced to disband as a direct result of a war to clear them off green. Before it happened, there was no hint of any troubles with VE nor did anyone really think they would disband.

CG was founded by alliance hoppers whom everyone knew wouldn't hold together more than a month or two from the start. Saying VE expecting them to disband and making a little game out of it is immoral and outrageous because they had disbanded in the past is stretching it just a bit.

[Tom Litler]

Although I have no love for the Red Crimson Guard, I have to say that judging from VE's self-righteous hypocrisy, they should never have been allowed to reform. But hey, that's just me. Me and my silly silly sense of decency...

[Corinan]

I know we would have sooner disbanded than left Blue when we were facing the firing squad last summer.

You're saying Polaris would have rather disbanded than leave the Blue team? That actually seems pretty dumb to me. That can't be right...

[InfiniteWii]

You do not need to educate me on history I was part of. About 25 percent of VE was green, and it was officially a BLUE alliance at the time of the DoE, and was never intended to go back to green.

This is false.

If you would like to be educated on this matter you can send a PM to Kybernetes. I'm sure that he would be happy to enlighten you on the project that he spent a great deal of his time on.

[Machiabelly]

I wonder if Fran and HS had joined a major ex-Karma alliance, if there would have been any NPO outrage at the bet.

Also, since NPO has now officially lost a war, they know how it feels and can never joke about another alliance losing a war, as that would be hypocritical.

I seem to recall months of jokes, still hear them now and then, from many NPO and other outraged alliances about GOLD disbanding.

[Kevin McDonald]

I don't know why I didn't mention this in my first post.

I've disbanded an alliance before. I know how difficult it is. The alliance I disbanded was 10 months old. It was very tough to split that community apart.

That said, you have to be able to laugh at yourselves. If someone had run a pool, I'd have given us 15 months... so I'd have lost

[Haflinger]

As to the subject at hand... look. Crimson Guard was a disproportionately loud alliance given its size. They appeared, made a lot of noise, and disappeared. It happens a lot in this game. The fact is that the survival rate for small alliances, especially those that try to push too much too fast, is very low.

This is true, but it's kinda sad.

Remember, an alliance isn't just its leadership. Most of the people in CG were not disproportionately loud. It was really just two people.