Steelrat Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) 2. OV member is busted, threats are made against OV, and OV doesn't cave. This is because it has reassurances from Karma that they will be backed up. OV would have no reason to even consider taking a stand if it thought that only its closest allies would be in on the fight. 3. NPO is dragged back in for one last round of negotiations, having already made its mind up it will declare war and that the timetable for launching the assault will not change. This later leads to allegations of NPO negotiating in bad faith and attacking during negotiations. Can´t agree with part 2 and 3. Well, i was there and i can assure you the drama llama were high and loaded on the Karma side. A deal was hammered out between all the parties on the Karma side and OV was most reasonable and agreed to that. Yes that deal were OV was agreeing to let Seth ZI in exchange for Mhawk or the one who orginal spied on OV to be Zi´ed too. As is was very clear that TPF or X with TPF knowing X for sure could only get that infos about Seth by syping themselves. Your part 2 sounds like OV/Karma set this trap up. Come on Hal you don´t really believe that. No one could have known before how things fall into pieces, no mastermind. About part 3 Wooh, that´s just crazy, if NPO had already made up their mind and the orders were unstopable anyway why in hell they should have gone back to negotiations. I really don´t know why NPO still declared war but in the aftermath i guess this whole spy accusing would have blown into TPF/NPO/TORN´s face anyway as it was very clear that to get hold on the infos about OV they must have spied themselves or at least did the same they accused Seth did. So to say pure hypocrisis on their side. Edited August 5, 2009 by Steelrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Your part 2 sounds like OV/Karma set this trap up. Come on Hal you don´t really believe that. No one could have known before how things fall into pieces, no mastermind. He does, actually. He's been saying it for months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 ...saying that it was "TORN's war" and that NPO was only supporting their allies in TORN in entering the war... That's actually not very far from the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) About part 3Wooh, that´s just crazy, if NPO had already made up their mind and the orders were unstopable anyway why in hell they should have gone back to negotiations. I really don´t know why NPO still declared war but in the aftermath i guess this whole spy accusing would have blown into TPF/NPO/TORN´s face anyway as it was very clear that to get hold on the infos about OV they must have spied themselves or at least did the same they accused Seth did. So to say pure hypocrisis on their side. It's called a foreign policy blunder. We had our own peaceniks and their 11th hour attempts to save the world from Armageddon just made things worse. Our inconsistent (when it was there) messaging was probably the biggest issue as the war began. We failed to do a great number of things we should have done, and we learned some hard lessons. Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 That's actually not very far from the truth. Interesting considering how you said you were attacking them because you thought they spied on NPO... doesn't sound much like TORN's war to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Interesting considering how you said you were attacking them because you thought they spied on NPO... doesn't sound much like TORN's war to me. That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason. We had no issues with OV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneBallMan Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 well, i guess the point is... if NPO knowlingly withheld pertinent information, it was doing NPO a disservice.Still, if your allies were willing to cancel a treaty without verifying the information, then that still raises a red flag (in my opinion) in the strength of the relationship. As I was asking before, would it have been so terrible to declare nuetrality while verifying information, versus throwing away the treaty entirely? In TPF's case, it was already explained that their cancelation was due to a rash decision, which they later corrected. It is true that some of our gov did reach out to Pacifica IOs to confirm or invalidate the story we were told. There was an attempt to rationalize the events with what we'd been told. But truth be known, it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to me. My response upon hearing the TORN side of events was more than enough to confirm my existing bias against Pacifica. I think my exact phrase in our secure chan sounded like "Buck Pacifica and the horse they rode in on too." As far as I am concerned, Pacifica owes us no apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason.We had no issues with OV. Saying this here was probably not the best idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) Saying this here was probably not the best idea. I'm tired of dancing around the issue. I mean who am I protecting, TORN? After what they did to us, to TPF, to all their old allies? Let's let it all come out, let's all be honest with each other for a change. I'm sick and tired of the evil NPO routine. Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desperado Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) So you took the words of one treaty partner over the other without actually bothering to speak to one of the treaty partners before reaching that conclusion? Unbelievable is what it is. Moreso that you seem to think it is a perfectly logical action to take when dealing with your allies.You also avoided answering my question as to what the rush was on such a decision in light of the fact that the difference in impact on NPO's war effort was nil whether you waited to get their side of the story before making a decision and your actual action in cancelling the treaty publicly and not going to war. What was the rush? You completely missed the point. Here, let me help you 2 MADP Partners come screaming to you at the same time. Since you don't sign MADP's I can understand why you are so lost. This discussion is over. You can try to continue this some other place, hopefully without the heavenly aroma. Edited August 5, 2009 by Desperado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason Well, I'm glad that's out there. Edit: Perhaps this war will demonstrate to people why MADPs are a bad idea in the first place. Edited August 5, 2009 by Bob Janova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason.We had no issues with OV. I honestly do not know where to start with taht statement so I will just go with the basics to begin, You realize that Casus Belli literally means the justification or reason for war right? Are you really sitting here and admitting that you didn't care about the "spying" and that you were basically just going to roll OV because it seemed like a fun idea at the time? wow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I honestly do not know where to start with taht statement so I will just go with the basics to begin, You realize that Casus Belli literally means the justification or reason for war right? Are you really sitting here and admitting that you didn't care about the "spying" and that you were basically just going to roll OV because it seemed like a fun idea at the time? wow... *WE* didn't want to go to war with Ordo Verde. Read.between.the.lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason.We had no issues with OV. You make it hard for me to support NPO when you say things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iosif Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 You make it hard for me to support NPO when you say things like that. This, pretty much. I'm really wondering why they haven't silenced James Dahl months ago, as his blatant lying and utter idiocy are degrading Pacifica's image in the eyes of this fine community post by post. Vox agent much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 You make it hard for me to support NPO when you say things like that. Oh no, we might lose the war for public opinion I'm all for owning up to our mistakes, and this was one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 *WE* didn't want to go to war with Ordo Verde.Read.between.the.lines. You didn't want to go to war but you did anyway over something you didn't really care about because you were bullied by your big bad allies in TORN to do it? TORN was never in a position to make you do anything, if you didn't want a war you wouldn't have fought a war. regardless of who "wanted it more" you enabled it to happen. Being a good ally doesn't equate to helping your allies bully alliances for no reason, that just makes you a bully. I am glad that you are so ready to admit now that you had no problem being and enabling bullies even against people you had no real issues with instead of pretending to be some beacon of morality. I have been reading between the lines for a very long time James and you aren't telling me anything I do not already know, it is just nice to see NPO admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneBallMan Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Oh no, we might lose the war for public opinion I'm all for owning up to our mistakes, and this was one of them. Wow. This just got very, very interesting. A new Dawn. A new Day. A new Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) You didn't want to go to war but you did anyway over something you didn't really care about because you were bullied by your big bad allies in TORN to do it?TORN was never in a position to make you do anything, if you didn't want a war you wouldn't have fought a war. regardless of who "wanted it more" you enabled it to happen. Being a good ally doesn't equate to helping your allies bully alliances for no reason, that just makes you a bully. I am glad that you are so ready to admit now that you had no problem being and enabling bullies even against people you had no real issues with instead of pretending to be some beacon of morality. I have been reading between the lines for a very long time James and you aren't telling me anything I do not already know, it is just nice to see NPO admit it. Admitting it was an article of our surrender terms, ironically for the one thing we didn't do. I don't see saying out in the open what everyone pretty much knew already but didn't feel like saying as some revolutionary act. Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazymatty Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Admitting it was an article of our surrender terms, ironically for the one thing we didn't do.I don't see saying out in the open what everyone pretty much knew already but didn't feel like saying as some revolutionary act. So why not stop dancing around the bush...lay it out in black and white. What was the reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 So why not stop dancing around the bush...lay it out in black and white.What was the reason? Go ask bigwoody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natan Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 So, James, what your saying is that TPF was pushed into a war, when in fact if it wasn't for TPF's heroics on day one, the so called coalition of cowards would have stayed out of the war and this would have pretty much just been a big stomping of Pacifica and that's it. What your saying makes a lot of sense, bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o ya baby Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) That was the Casus Belli, not the actual reason.We had no issues with OV. n., pl. casus belli.An act or event that provokes or is used to justify war. so wat u trynna say, lil honeydip? Edited August 5, 2009 by o ya baby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) TPF went above and beyond the furthest calls of duty and friendship, they are amazing people. We have been humbled and shown the true meaning of what being a friend and an ally really means. They circled the wagons when it looked like we would face the whole world alone, and joined impossible odds. Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o ya baby Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 TPF went above and beyond the furthest calls of duty and friendship, they are amazing people. We have been humbled and shown the true meaning of what being a friend and an ally really means. They circled the wagons when it looked like we would face the whole world alone, and joined impossible odds. I see you edited out the "o/ TPF" in that post there, sir. Any particular reason behind it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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