At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[Un4Gvn1]

May I ask what the rush was to make a decison before finding out what actually happened? Considering your actions at that time were to cancel and stay out of the conflict, it would not have been any different, with regards to assistance to the NPO, to have waited 24 hours to clarify what happened before making an informed decision.

<snip>

Exactly. I don't understand that part, either. Perhaps it had something to do with some that thought they knew the source of information better than they knew other folks?

[Tygaland]

The point is that TPF had two MADP partners running to them at once as well as pressure due to the spreading of said TORN drama. It should be pretty easy to understand and I am not sure there is much more to elaborate on.

So you took the words of one treaty partner over the other without actually bothering to speak to one of the treaty partners before reaching that conclusion? Unbelievable is what it is. Moreso that you seem to think it is a perfectly logical action to take when dealing with your allies.

You also avoided answering my question as to what the rush was on such a decision in light of the fact that the difference in impact on NPO's war effort was nil whether you waited to get their side of the story before making a decision and your actual action in cancelling the treaty publicly and not going to war. What was the rush?

[ChairmanHal]

Mushroom Kingdom propaganda had a field day after the hegemony abandoned NPO. I also recall you making several posts calling out the hegemony alliances.

I just remember listening to CN Radio and thinking that Valhalla and company had somehow been responsible for taking away the meal ticket of the assembled "celebrities" and having the meal tickets all stamped "NO DESSERT, NO CAKE, NO PRESENTS" just before their birthday.

[Strykewolf]

o/ TPF, you guys are awesome.

PC .... your time is coming.

Everybody's time is coming.

It's a fact of CN. Just make sure you have your ducks lined up; or you may get more than bargained for.

Just food for thought.

[Tygaland]

Exactly. I don't understand that part, either. Perhaps it had something to do with some that thought they knew the source of information better than they knew other folks?

I have no idea. I just thought it'd be standard practise to find out the whole story (i.e. speak to the NPO) before making a huge decision such as a mass treaty cancellation after war has broken out.

[OneBallMan]

So you took the words of one treaty partner over the other without actually bothering to speak to one of the treaty partners before reaching that conclusion? Unbelievable is what it is. Moreso that you seem to think it is a perfectly logical action to take when dealing with your allies.

You also avoided answering my question as to what the rush was on such a decision in light of the fact that the difference in impact on NPO's war effort was nil whether you waited to get their side of the story before making a decision and your actual action in cancelling the treaty publicly and not going to war. What was the rush?

I believe I've addressed this in various posts for the duration of this conflict. I was behind the push on our side to move forward with canceling with Pacifica. To say that I was predisposed to not give them the benefit of the doubt to Pacifica is an understatement, and was earned through personal dealings over the life of TPF. While Slayer was quick to forgive what I saw as disregard for our contributions to the tC bloc, I wasn't and am not. That I was also pre-disposed to take bigwoody at his word was also true to my experience with TORN up to that point. I pushed extremely hard in our gov discussions on that evening, cajoled, threatened and generally jumped up and down screaming that Pacifica could stick their treaty in many dark and sundry places. Absent our Commanding General, with the bulk of the remaining tC alliances putting pressure for a decision, our Magistrates were getting it from all sides. Let there be no mistake to compound the one I so obviously made, our members wanted war and a lot of it. Post cancellation, our membership crucified us.

So, if it is our further humiliation you seek to warm your cockles in the cold cold place you live, Tyga, then here it is, dressed upon our finest silver. We screwed up because I screwed up. Mhawk told us to wait and get the whole story, but I pushed TPF to reward Pacifica for many things that had been done to us in the previous year or so. That my error was corrected with the course of righteousness is the only redeeming element of this story for me.

[Tygaland]

I believe I've addressed this in various posts for the duration of this conflict. I was behind the push on our side to move forward with canceling with Pacifica. To say that I was predisposed to not give them the benefit of the doubt to Pacifica is an understatement, and was earned through personal dealings over the life of TPF. While Slayer was quick to forgive what I saw as disregard for our contributions to the tC bloc, I wasn't and am not. That I was also pre-disposed to take bigwoody at his word was also true to my experience with TORN up to that point. I pushed extremely hard in our gov discussions on that evening, cajoled, threatened and generally jumped up and down screaming that Pacifica could stick their treaty in many dark and sundry places. Absent our Commanding General, with the bulk of the remaining tC alliances putting pressure for a decision, our Magistrates were getting it from all sides. Let there be no mistake to compound the one I so obviously made, our members wanted war and a lot of it. Post cancellation, our membership crucified us.

So, if it is our further humiliation you seek to warm your cockles in the cold cold place you live, Tyga, then here it is, dressed upon our finest silver. We screwed up because I screwed up. Mhawk told us to wait and get the whole story, but I pushed TPF to reward Pacifica for many things that had been done to us in the previous year or so. That my error was corrected with the course of righteousness is the only redeeming element of this story for me.

If you had bothered to read my post and, more importantly, the post I was responding to, you'd realise that my comments were not to further humiliate anyone but to point out some details James Dahl conveniently overlooked in labelling you the Coalition of the Deceived. If you did not speak to the NPO before making a decision, you were not deceived, you just didn't bother checking the story before jumping to conclusions.

And by you, I'm talking to all the alliances that cancelled the treaty without bothering to talk to the NPO that day.

Then again, you never miss an opportunity to wail about mean old Tyga picking on TPF. Even when you have to ignore what I said to do so.

[Turkey]

Then again, you never miss an opportunity to wail about mean old Tyga picking on TPF. Even when you have to ignore what I said to do so.

Funny, you never seem to miss an opportunity to get your digs in. You and OBM are both fairly intelligent people, given your penchant for seizing opportunities, maybe we should move this to a game of parcheesi instead of useless flagellating in this thread?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Turkey

[Tygaland]

Funny, you never seem to miss an opportunity to get your digs in. You and OBM are both fairly intelligent people, given your penchant for seizing opportunities, maybe we should move this to a game of parcheesi instead of useless flagellating in this thread?

What dig was that again? Is correcting someone over details they brought into the discussion taking a dig now? Because if James Dahl is going to portray the alliances that cancelled on the NPO as victims of a sinister plot by Karma and misinformation from Bigwoody, then it is not out of order to ask why those alliances as a group neglected to contact the NPO for their version of the story before acting. Therefore, Coalition of the Deceived is itself a deception. Perhaps Coalition of the Knee-jerk Reaction to Half a Story is more apt.

I have no idea what parcheesi is, some kind of middle-eastern pizza?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Heft]

If we're analogizing our little world to games, Jenga is probably a better choice.

[Turkey]

What dig was that again? Is correcting someone over details they brought into the discussion taking a dig now? Because if James Dahl is going to portray the alliances that cancelled on the NPO as victims of a sinister plot by Karma and misinformation from Bigwoody, then it is not out of order to ask why those alliances as a group neglected to contact the NPO for their version of the story before acting. Therefore, Coalition of the Deceived is itself a deception. Perhaps Coalition of the Knee-jerk Reaction to Half a Story Coalition is more apt.

I have no idea what parcheesi is, some kind of middle-eastern pizza?

To that end, the implication that yours is some altruistic quest for the truth is deceptive as well, though agendas certainly aren't a new thing to bob.

OOC: Parcheesi is a board game, though now you've got me craving pizza and beer.

More OOC and slightly off topic: I tried googling for tiger jesus, and then jesus cat, but this was the best I could come up with:

If we're analogizing our little world to games, Jenga is probably a better choice.

Only if we can use bread sticks instead of blocks... Thank tyga (and my one track mind) for taking us off on a yeasty tangent.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Turkey

[Tygaland]

To that end, the implication that yours is some altruistic quest for the truth is deceptive as well, though agendas certainly aren't a new thing to bob.

What exactly was my agenda in pointing out the missing information in James Dahl's story? Other than pointing out the omission of a vital piece of the story he was putting together, of course.

Parcheesi is a board game, though now you've got me craving pizza and beer.

Ah, well, I'll stick with pizza then.

OOC and slightly off topic: I tried googling for tiger jesus, and then jesus cat, but this was the best I could come up with:

lol

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Ogaden]

What dig was that again? Is correcting someone over details they brought into the discussion taking a dig now? Because if James Dahl is going to portray the alliances that cancelled on the NPO as victims of a sinister plot by Karma and misinformation from Bigwoody, then it is not out of order to ask why those alliances as a group neglected to contact the NPO for their version of the story before acting. Therefore, Coalition of the Deceived is itself a deception. Perhaps Coalition of the Knee-jerk Reaction to Half a Story is more apt.

I have no idea what parcheesi is, some kind of middle-eastern pizza?

You were not there.

Our biggest failure is that we took 'need to know' to an extreme where we actually did not share information that people DID need to know. This was stupid, it alienated our own members as much as our allies, and it was the biggest victory Vox Populi won in the pre-war period that we did not trust even our closest allies to not be feeding information to our enemies.

Sadly, as post-war confessions show, we were sadly right to feel this way, members and even government of our closest allies WERE feeding information to our enemies, so we didn't really have a choice. It was horrible to watch though, as an ally would ask you a question and you would be told to just defer it. Morale in diplo was terrible, morale alliance wide was pretty low.

Until you are in this situation, you do not have the right to accuse people of anything, you have no idea what it's like. People quit NPO in droves because they couldn't take it anymore.

Some day I hope you have to suffer the same. Until you do, you will never understand.

Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl

[Turkey]

What exactly was my agenda in pointing out the missing information in James Dahl's story? Other than pointing out the omission of a vital piece of the story he was putting together, of course.

Taken in the vacuum of a solitary post? Surely, there's no motive behind that post at all. Taken in the context of a long line of posts with a similar theme? Different story.

Ah, well, I'll stick with pizza then.

That's an agenda I can get behind.

lol

Leave on a high note. Back to the TPF dungeon for me (aka bed).

[Tygaland]

You were not there.

Our biggest failure is that we took 'need to know' to an extreme where we actually did not share information that people DID need to know. This was stupid, it alienated our own members as much as our allies, and it was the biggest victory Vox Populi won in the pre-war period that we did not trust even our closest allies to not be feeding information to our enemies.

Sadly, as post-war confessions show, we were sadly right to feel this way, members and even government of our closest allies WERE feeding information to our enemies, so we didn't really have a choice. It was horrible to watch though, as an ally would ask you a question and you would be told to just defer it.

Until you are in this situation, you do not have the right to accuse people of anything, you have no idea what it's like. People quit NPO in droves because they couldn't take it anymore.

Some day I hope you have to suffer the same. Until you do, you will never understand.

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

[Tygaland]

Taken in the vacuum of a solitary post? Surely, there's no motive behind that post at all. Taken in the context of a long line of posts with a similar theme? Different story.

I think you fall back on the "you're just saying this because of my alliance affiliation" excuse way too easily.

[KingEsus]

Yeah, if you pretend that TPF has always been a knight in shining armour

No i don't think those two things are linked at all, Kaiser Kevin made a very good point which i hadn't thought about. Given the bile and hatred still being flung at TPF and the NPO, what was the war for? Those alliances that fought long and hard get incredible terms and are still hated. Alliances that threw in the towel as soon as they could are given near to white peace with best wishes and messages of friendship. But in this thread where TPF are clearly beaten and bloody and have agreed to terms which may bankrupt them they are still subject to ridicule and vitriol.

[Sal Paradise]

So what's going on here? Are you people somehow blaming MK for ????? because they shamed TPF into honouring their treaty with the NPO?

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

I think he wants a hug, but he's too afraid to be direct about it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Tygaland]

No i don't think those two things are linked at all, Kaiser Kevin made a very good point which i hadn't thought about. Given the bile and hatred still being flung at TPF and the NPO, what was the war for? Those alliances that fought long and hard get incredible terms and are still hated. Alliances that threw in the towel as soon as they could are given near to white peace with best wishes and messages of friendship. But in this thread where TPF are clearly beaten and bloody and have agreed to terms which may bankrupt them they are still subject to ridicule and vitriol.

I can't say I have noticed the ridicule and vitriol other than people responding to people trying to paint the NPO and TPF as victims. The NPO and TPF are never going to be seen as victims and I think that is probably the issue you are having.

As far as I am concerned, the NPO and TPF have been through war and have reparations to pay which is tied in with their past actions. The past is now the past but that does not rewrite the history that lead to this war and the situation the NPO and TPF find themselves in. It merely means that both alliances have the chance to move forward and that the perception of their alliance from this point on is going to be shaped by their decisions and actions from this point onwards.

If some in those alliances and other assorted useful idiots outside those alliances want to persist with the victim campaign then they will be rightfully ridiculed for trying.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Bjornoya]

I fought this war serving in TGE; our involvement was short and conclusive. We helped eliminate NATO from the hegemonic forces while fighting off and attack from TFD. Both these took little over a week or so to conclude, the war ended with gentlemanly compliments and no reparations for our part at least.

Contrast that with the months long conflict TPF put up, they and these adversaries often treated each other like roommates who had grown sick just from spending too much time together, and for sticking it out til the end they, unlike so many of us who left the meal early, get stuck with the tab and the scorn. Ironic.

I'm not a big fan of TPF, but I think they deserve better than this. Least CCC and NV can be the city upon a hill for not kicking a man while he's down.

Meh, but why pay any attention to this assorted useful idiot's musing. Let us return to whining about whining, you lot of whiners.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Kaiser Kevin

[Sir Wellington]

No i don't think those two things are linked at all, Kaiser Kevin made a very good point which i hadn't thought about. Given the bile and hatred still being flung at TPF and the NPO, what was the war for? Those alliances that fought long and hard get incredible terms and are still hated. Alliances that threw in the towel as soon as they could are given near to white peace with best wishes and messages of friendship. But in this thread where TPF are clearly beaten and bloody and have agreed to terms which may bankrupt them they are still subject to ridicule and vitriol.

A very wise triumvirate of a well known alliance in this conflict put this to me very succinctly:

You can look at this like people breaking the law. As soon as one person gets arrested, if they switch sides and work with the prosecution, they are now on "the right side." The law now completely ignores all the crimes that said person committed. The prosecution now focuses all of their efforts on the "grand prize." Anyone who is left standing is now left to hang.... it is just how it is.

We all hate the system, especially for its corruption, but it is what it is. God bless the worst parts of humanity, namely our flawless legal system.

o/

[Heyman]

A very wise triumvirate of a well known alliance in this conflict put this to me very succinctly:

You can look at this like people breaking the law. As soon as one person gets arrested, if they switch sides and work with the prosecution, they are now on "the right side." The law now completely ignores all the crimes that said person committed. The prosecution now focuses all of their efforts on the "grand prize." Anyone who is left standing is now left to hang.... it is just how it is.

We all hate the system, especially for its corruption, but it is what it is. God bless the worst parts of humanity, namely our flawless legal system.

o/

Tis always been the norm. That's Realpolitik for ya.

[Steelrat]

Oh man, TPF guys come one, stop that hidden whining, the we were wronged by XXX attitude. I hail all those TPF members who didn´t fall for that kind of attitude, the others i despise.

Lets see, even IF , bolded and underlined, there was a vicious plot to bring down you and NPO and all the other "hegemony" alliances get over it. YOU LOST.

And that counts even more for the special "propaganda" brigade in NPO, guys i know you have to write that stuff but i assume most of you are smart and intelligent so i really hope you guys believe not one letter you wrote yourself. Little hint, if not things like that could lead to schizophrenia.

However who am i to judge about you guys, so i rest my case and let you live in your little dream world.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Steelrat

[Tygaland]

I fought this war serving in TGE; our involvement was short and conclusive. We helped eliminate NATO from the hegemonic forces while fighting off and attack from TFD. Both these took little over a week or so to conclude, the war ended with gentlemanly compliments and no reparations for our part at least.

Contrast that with the months long conflict TPF put up, they and these adversaries often treated each other like roommates who had grown sick just from spending too much time together, and for sticking it out til the end they, unlike so many of us who left the meal early, get stuck with the tab and the scorn. Ironic.

I'm not a big fan of TPF, but I think they deserve better than this. Least CCC and NV can be the city upon a hill for not kicking a man while he's down.

Meh, but why pay any attention to this assorted useful idiot's musing. Let us return to whining about whining, you lot of whiners.

Pssst, it is you doing the whining.

[Lord Levistus]

Another aspect of this is how stupid Continuum/1V alliances were when they posted their cancellation of treaties with the NPO and fled the war without even speaking to the NPO to verify what happened.

The panic and knee-jerk reaction to cancel was purely the doing of those alliances that cancelled and nothing to do with Karma at all. If your chain of events is true (there are a few differing versions floating around) then alliances that cancelled on the NPO without even contacting the NPO for their version of events did themselves a great disservice and deserved the ridicule they received for those actions. If they were true allies of the NPO they'd have spoken to the NPO before running for the hills.

you are greatly misinformed here, Tyga.

NPO was stonewalling us. We were trying to get answers from them, they weren,'t answering the phones. When something this serious arises, the message of "We're the NPO, don't question us" doesn't cut it.