The Unjust War

[Kroknia]

I can honestly say I would have left the game almost immediately had the UJP won and maintained power for more than a week. The GOONS, \m/ and TPF were on par with the worst of the worst the game has ever really seen... If they were allowed any real power and influence. Individually, only the GOONS were really tyrants or able to be tyrants. Collectively nothing could have been worse for the game IMO. I also liked more UJP alliances(MK, R&R, FOK) than I did ~ alliances, I just hated other UJP alliances(GOONS, TPF, \m/ and genmay on occasion) exponentially more than I did ~ alliances. Granted I was in Sparta at the time and we were harassed just because somebody didn't like the 300 movie even though Sparta was made prior to the movie and had no relation to it. I guess that made me a bit biased.

As for post UJP, I still can't believe the NPO gets so much flak for the destruction of Polar. They saved Polar's bum quite a few times. I think their position with the Q was trying to maintain peace between BLEU and the Citadel until they could set up a post war coalition with them in the center with the winning side of that war. It didn't work out that way and if either the Citadel or BLEU went down they were going to end up in this position they're in now. I think the NPO knew that. I think they would be in a better spot had the citadel been taken down than BLEU, but not by all that much(I think the Citadel would have gone against Karma in this war has the roles been switched).

[Atanatar]

I'm not going to lie. If I had existed around the time of the UjW, I would have sided with the UJP/UJHW, most notably \m/ and Fark.

[Terry Howard]

Was leader of The Illuminati in them days. The war was ok but the lose of alliances after was a sad day for CN for love em or hate em they helped make Bob what it was and is today.

I know i should have taken note at the time in my situation. But i chose to take the wrong path for my then alliance. Strage but Karma comes in many forms and i for sure got mine.

PZI sucks.

[Iosif]

I'm not going to lie. If I had existed around the time of the UjW, I would have sided with the UJP/UJHW, most notably \m/ and Fark.

Why should you lie? To ascend via the unjust path is not something to be ashamed of.

Also, I didn't participate in the conflict. My nation was killed of inactivity and bloody admin had disabled registration. But definately, an Unjust Bob would've been a better, more entertaining Bob than what we got. I'd take those belligerent and despotic bastardos over the two lousy years of Pax Pacifica anytime.

[DaJoW]

NpO Minister of Peace at the time, so naturally I was fairly pleased with the outcome.

[Prime minister Johns]

I can not imagine a world with the UJP as the hegemony.

All I can come up with is that it would of been unimaginably worse than the NPO hegemony.

Imagine shark week, every single week without end.

[Starcraftmazter]

I can not imagine a world with the UJP as the hegemony.

All I can come up with is that it would of been unimaginably worse than the NPO hegemony.

Imagine shark week, every single week without end.

GOONS and NPO were actually the same, the difference was that GOONS didn't try to disguise their actions as something totally innocent all the time and create false justifications for their actions. So I disagree that it would have been any worse.

Though given GOONS didn't play the BS game, they would have themselves gotten rolled much faster than NPO, since even dumb people would turn against them quick enough, given they weren't being fooled.

[Essenia]

GOONS and NPO were actually the same, the difference was that GOONS didn't try to disguise their actions as something totally innocent all the time and create false justifications for their actions. So I disagree that it would have been any worse.

Pretty much. It's an impressive testament to the Orders PR (or the UJP lack thereof) that people honestly believe that there was a serious difference between their operating measures and those of GOONS. Frankly, GOONS wasn't even as bad because they at least cared about their close allies, whereas NPO saw all its allies as means to an end, not friends (and NpO saw most of its allies that). The result of that was that no one actually liked them, something that all the world got to see with the CoC Bloc and spree of cancellations before this war.

[ChairmanHal]

I will point out the fact that the end of the Unjust War did not, as you seem to imply, make Polaris fate in July 2008 an inevitability.

Orphan 300+ players. The resulting diaspora sees many of them scatter to alliances across Planet Bob where they eventually rise to position of influence, power and authority. Consider that many of them weren't happy about being orphaned and blame one alliance and particularly one man for their status. Throw in Sponge threatening, almost compulsively, every alliance that he decides has too many former members of \m/ in it, including Ragnarok.

If it wasn't the sniper, it was the rifle.

For some reason I doubt a lightening of terms would've somehow swayed the remnants of the UJP over to Polaris side in time for the Second Patriotic War.

Without the diaspora, many of those who went on to leadership positions elsewhere would not have moved on. It's not so much that \m/ would have turned into an ally of Polaris, but that a number of the alliances that actively participated in Polaris' downfall would not have been such staunch opponents.

At the risk of sounding like a snob, \m/ never had an "era" of power or influence.

Sure it did. Ironically though I would argue that it had more *influence* in death than it ever had as another rider in the Initiative death squad. \m/ in that era had power, \m/ leadership took all the "right" meetings with NPO, and could push people around by virtue of its place among its allies, but outside of that context...not so much. The same could be said for GGA and many of the other alliances in the Initiative.

[Hassman]

WAPA was a great ally of \m/. Truly amazing how that happened - you were beaten by \m/, forced to join the alliance, and then found that you liked it there... and became very, very close allies.

Seeing that happened made me gain so much respect for WAPA that I still hold to this day

Yea that's when WAPA changed for the best and that's when i joined CN during the period when WAPA just became independent again.

Garghh well we weren't the same alliance when we DoW on \m/ during WWIII, while helping GATO. We were looked at as a terrible alliance who declared on any alliance for the lolz. Actually i see alot of the old WAPA in TE.

[Iosif]

I can not imagine a world with the UJP as the hegemony.

All I can come up with is that it would of been unimaginably worse than the NPO hegemony.

Imagine shark week, every single week without end.

Then your overlords have been pretty successful in their propagatings, I got to say. But still, the fact remains that they basically were just the ruder, more direct and more jocular version of the Hegemony. They were hardly the Axis of Evil and it's just mere hypocrisy from the Orders to say so. One who actually thinks that the Orders were any better is quite delusional.

+ considering how things've been going lately, I'd dare to say that Bob really is in need of another Shark Week.

[lamuella]

was ujp, and I think the game would have been more interesting with an ujp victory.

With that said (and without naming names) I think there were some influential people on the ujp side more interested in going out with a bang than in winning.

[RandomInterrupt]

Pretty much. It's an impressive testament to the Orders PR (or the UJP lack thereof) that people honestly believe that there was a serious difference between their operating measures and those of GOONS. Frankly, GOONS wasn't even as bad because they at least cared about their close allies, whereas NPO saw all its allies as means to an end, not friends (and NpO saw most of its allies that). The result of that was that no one actually liked them, something that all the world got to see with the CoC Bloc and spree of cancellations before this war.

I thought we had a pretty nice dialog going for a while. I guess you didn't actually read anything I wrote, huh? I am still waiting to hear why if "that no one actually liked them" folks still came to the defense of Polar, and stayed with them during their terms, and re-signed after their terms. How is that possible? Please explain as it's a comment you've made several times.

[NoFish]

I can not imagine a world with the UJP as the hegemony.

All I can come up with is that it would of been unimaginably worse than the NPO hegemony.

Imagine shark week, every single week without end.

Imagine the past two years, but instead of horribly contrived CB's for all of the curbstomps there were hilarious but mean-spirited jokes.

[Kroknia]

Then your overlords have been pretty successful in their propagatings, I got to say. But still, the fact remains that they basically were just the ruder, more direct and more jocular version of the Hegemony. They were hardly the Axis of Evil and it's just mere hypocrisy from the Orders to say so. One who actually thinks that the Orders were any better is quite delusional.

+ considering how things've been going lately, I'd dare to say that Bob really is in need of another Shark Week.

I don't think half the ~ group thought that the Orders were a big improvement on the UJP. I do, however, think that it was understood that if the Orders were defeated in the war that the UJP would have done the same thing only with less of a responsible opposition than the Orders have had sense before GW1. People, in my opinion, were willing to fight the UJP because they saw the light at the end of the road without a hegemonic, oppressive power. To do that, it required neither an irresponsible group declaring war for the most minor infractions, such as "GOONS suck" and with a plausible alternative to the Orders. I don't see that as a real possibility with the Orders not having won that war. There have really been 3 or more sides of all wars sense GW3 and the swing alliances have been the deciders of those wars to get out from under the jackboot of their oppressors. The swing alliances that defeated the UJP saw, very clearly, that an unjust hegemony would be harder to break than an Order one without a central role being played by the Orders/recent centers of the "hegemony" giving them the same roll, only later on and more reinforced and unified. Whether you agree with this or not, the end result is that which was hoped for by myself and others back in that time. The UJP was defeated and the Orders have been defeated. What more could I have asked for even if it took some time?

[Prime minister Johns]

Then your overlords have been pretty successful in their propagatings, I got to say. But still, the fact remains that they basically were just the ruder, more direct and more jocular version of the Hegemony. They were hardly the Axis of Evil and it's just mere hypocrisy from the Orders to say so. One who actually thinks that the Orders were any better is quite delusional.

+ considering how things've been going lately, I'd dare to say that Bob really is in need of another Shark Week.

The most significant of these was “Shark Week,” a week long policy in which the GOONS would attack outright anyone they saw as nuisance or troll, at their discretion, with no warning to the target. Any nation that was attacked by the GOONS would need to plead their case on the GOONS’ forums.

The only people who look fondly on Shark Week were the GOONS and their allies.

Almost everyone else went into radio silence for the week.

[Essenia]

I thought we had a pretty nice dialog going for a while. I guess you didn't actually read anything I wrote, huh? I am still waiting to hear why if "that no one actually liked them" folks still came to the defense of Polar, and stayed with them during their terms, and re-signed after their terms. How is that possible? Please explain as it's a comment you've made several times.

(and NpO saw most of its allies [do] that). That is the explanation. Polar had a large number of MDP level treaties with alliances that were willing to abandon it when push came to shove; that was my point and it isn't a disputable one frankly (most in terms of NS, though perhaps in pure numbers there were more allies that stayed than left).

The only people who look fondly on Shark Week were the GOONS and their allies.

And people who don't appreciate terrible posting.

Edited July 29, 2009 by essenia

[WarriorConcept]

To be honest you guys are acting as if UJP would've been the new hegemony, it simply would not have been possible if you think about everyone who was around at the time. IRON, NPO, NpO, and such would not have disbanded, they would've stayed around and had fairly good political power. We'd still have TOP, gremlins, Superfriends, and others whose loyalties lie to themselves, as well as sparta and mha and such would've been growing as well. What you guys would've witnessed would've been almost an immediate multi-polar world like that one you guys have prayed for for 2 years instead of the hegemony ruling and curbstomping and all you guys !@#$%*ing while in reality it was your fault it happened. Game would've been tons fun this whole time. GOONS and us weren't in it for total political domination or unifying every sanctioned alliance in the game and just produce curbstomps once in a blue moon. We loved conflict and fun, which you guys attribute as "evil." Shut up please, you've been begging for a world we would've produced for years due to your own ignorance.

[lamuella]

The only people who look fondly on Shark Week were the GOONS and their allies.

Almost everyone else went into radio silence for the week.

actually, if you go back and look at the actual posts people were making at the time, there were a lot of cheerleaders for Shark Week who weren't from GOONS allies.

Of course, this can be put down prevailing mood. When GOONS were riding high, people liked everything they did. Now old GOONS are personae non grata, people remember everything they did in a negative light.

[WarriorConcept]

actually, if you go back and look at the actual posts people were making at the time, there were a lot of cheerleaders for Shark Week who weren't from GOONS allies.

Of course, this can be put down prevailing mood. When GOONS were riding high, people liked everything they did. Now old GOONS are personae non grata, people remember everything they did in a negative light.

Even Pingu liked sharkweek

[Prime minister Johns]

And people who don't appreciate terrible posting.

Terrible is a subjective term in this case.

[kerschbs]

actually, if you go back and look at the actual posts people were making at the time, there were a lot of cheerleaders for Shark Week who weren't from GOONS allies.

Of course, this can be put down prevailing mood. When GOONS were riding high, people liked everything they did. Now old GOONS are personae non grata, people remember everything they did in a negative light.

For the most part, I always despised GOONS. However, I was a huge proponent of Shark Week.

[WarriorConcept]

Terrible is a subjective term in this case.

Better than your ignorant statement that said only GOONS and its allies liked shark week.

[Essenia]

Terrible is a subjective term in this case.

Pretty much everyone who was attacked was targeted fairly. Standards on the old forums were awful- the mods wisely decided to go through on what GOONS started.

[Iosif]

I don't think half the ~ group thought that the Orders were a big improvement on the UJP.

I think this is pretty obvious.

I do, however, think that it was understood that if the Orders were defeated in the war that the UJP would have done the same thing only with less of a responsible opposition than the Orders have had sense before GW1. People, in my opinion, were willing to fight the UJP because they saw the light at the end of the road without a hegemonic, oppressive power. To do that, it required neither an irresponsible group declaring war for the most minor infractions, such as "GOONS suck" and with a plausible alternative to the Orders. I don't see that as a real possibility with the Orders not having won that war. There have really been 3 or more sides of all wars sense GW3 and the swing alliances have been the deciders of those wars to get out from under the jackboot of their oppressors. The swing alliances that defeated the UJP saw, very clearly, that an unjust hegemony would be harder to break than an Order one without a central role being played by the Orders/recent centers of the "hegemony" giving them the same roll, only later on and more reinforced and unified. Whether you agree with this or not, the end result is that which was hoped for by myself and others back in that time. The UJP was defeated and the Orders have been defeated. What more could I have asked for even if it took some time?

Well, now you seem to assume that had the Unjust Path won the war, they would have just become the Bizarro Hegemony, having complete power over the poor Bob. They simply didn't have what a utter victory would demand and they didn't have the firepower and diplomatic credibility to really crush all who stood on their way. Instead, they would have become a leading coalition in a multi-polar world; in an environment where they would've been forced to either reform or eventually be rolled by the masses of Bob. It's just asinine to assume that they would somehow get to the point where they could just keep everyone down without having to worry about consequences; a victorious Unjust Path would've left behind a lot less dead alliances than ~ did and a lot more people wishing to see them dead. After all, they most certainly didn't hide their intentions under cloak of false righteousness like the Orders did.

The only people who look fondly on Shark Week were the GOONS and their allies.

Some people just don't understand what's best for them.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Iosif Moldov