TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Tygaland]

And I do not. I find it insulting. But I guess that doesn't matter. Tygaland regularly insults members of Valhalla. That's old old and tired too. I'm not even sure if there is anything left of that cross he pretends to climb whenever last year's surrender terms come up.

Your alliance affiliation has nothing to do with my comments no matter how hard you try to make it so. You tried the same crap with Uhtred.

What's puzzling me at this point is: when did he join PC? He's been acting as an agent for them for the past 56+ pages. "Good advice to TPF?" I'm sorry the balance of his remarks says something else.

When have I said anything vaguely resembling membership of PC? I have said numerous times I don't believe the way they handled the NAP with TPF was right and my other comments have been a recommendation for TPF to bite the bullet, accept terms and move on because they will have their government and alliance intact. The rest can be rebought and rebuilt. It is comments like this that only make you look like a bigger fool than you already are.

But my puzzlement will have to go unanswered...I have better things to do, IC and OOC....

It is not puzzlement, it is delusion. And it only goes unanswered in your mind because you refuse to take any information in that does not suit your conspiracy theories.

[MagicalTrevor]

You really can't help pushing the button can you? Seriously. Just let it go. It's just boring and you aren't the least bit witty.

I disagree, it's hilarious on so many levels.

Tyga B)

[ChairmanHal]

Your alliance affiliation has nothing to do with my comments no matter how hard you try to make it so. You tried the same crap with Uhtred.

Who has had a major gripe with Valhalla since he left.

When have I said anything vaguely resembling membership of PC? I have said numerous times I don't believe the way they handled the NAP with TPF was right and my other comments have been a recommendation for TPF to bite the bullet, accept terms and move on because they will have their government and alliance intact. The rest can be rebought and rebuilt. It is comments like this that only make you look like a bigger fool than you already are.

No sir. This is TPF's fight, not yours. This is their call, not yours. Yet you insist on hanging around here, bashing them for making a decision you disagree with. I do not look like a fool, it is you that looks like the fool.

I said a VERY long time ago in this thread that the way that TPF is handing is is not the way I would. But I respect their decision. Why can't you?

It is not puzzlement, it is delusion. And it only goes unanswered in your mind because you refuse to take any information in that does not suit your conspiracy theories.

Let's be clear, one last time: I HAVE NO CONSPIRACY THEORIES. The only conspiracy theories are the ones you make up and attribute to me because it suits your agenda. Enough of this. Welcome to the Doitzel Zone.

[Tygaland]

Who has had a major gripe with Valhalla since he left.

I'd say Valhalla seem to have a major gripe with Uhtred looking back on the peace terms they gave the STA. But that has nothing to do with this. My comments are about your actions, not your alliance affiliation. You are using this as a smokescreen.

No sir. This is TPF's fight, not yours. This is their call, not yours. Yet you insist on hanging around here, bashing them for making a decision you disagree with. I do not look like a fool, it is you that looks like the fool.

I never once said it wasn't their decision. When issues are posted publicly, the public comment. I, as a member of the public, posted my opinion on the matter. I'm not aware I have bashed TPF in this thread, merely offered my opinion which is they take terms and start rebuilding. I'm not sure how that makes me foolish. But you making up hysterical stories to debate is foolish, in my opinion.

I said a VERY long time ago in this thread that the way that TPF is handing is is not the way I would. But I respect their decision. Why can't you?

When have I said I don't? I think their decision is a bad one but it is their decision to make.

Let's be clear, one last time: I HAVE NO CONSPIRACY THEORIES. The only conspiracy theories are the ones you make up and attribute to me because it suits your agenda. Enough of this. Welcome to the Doitzel Zone.

Oh really, how is that NPO joining Frostbite thing going?

Almost everything you post is a misrepresentation, hysterical figment of your imagination or outright fabrication. When pressed for evidence of your theories you refuse to offer any and either demand someone prove you wrong or claim you know more than anyone else about the issue but can't divulge the information and then stage an indigant exit from the discussion. I happen to find your misguided rambling and fairy stories highly amusing and entertaining but, let's be honest, they are just fairy stories. Keep up the good work.

[TypoNinja]

No sir. This is TPF's fight, not yours. This is their call, not yours. Yet you insist on hanging around here, bashing them for making a decision you disagree with. I do not look like a fool, it is you that looks like the fool.

Their fight to lose, and they lost it. Except they spent too long listening to the party line and actually think they can decide who they pay reps too, not even how much, but who they actually pay. Who's the bigger fool, the man who comes up with a bad idea, or the followers who think it wise?

I said a VERY long time ago in this thread that the way that TPF is handing is is not the way I would. But I respect their decision. Why can't you?

Respect would imply that it was a decision worth respecting. Rent, Lease, or Mortgage. Those are decisions that can all be respected they all have their own merits .(in order for the curious, no long term commitment, maintenance is somebody else's responsibility, and not being subject to the whim of a landlord.) TPF's choice does not inspire respect, it inspires ridicule.

There is nothing to take a moral stand on here, no membership restrictions, no changes to government, none of the funky terms CN has seen in the past. Just straight up cashflow (and not all that much), but for some reason something as straight forward as 'the defeated alliance pays reparations to the victor' seems to have escaped TPF.

[RKANYZ]

Basically this. Tyga has a point and sums up what I have been trying to say nicely. I really am quite tired of seeing TPF play the victim here when they in fact joined an aggressive war.

That's right, we honored a treaty.

Do I have your name wrong, or did I see you about 30 pages back saying you were done with this thread due to chest thumping?

[JBone]

Their fight to lose, and they lost it. Except they spent too long listening to the party line and actually think they can decide who they pay reps too, not even how much, but who they actually pay. Who's the bigger fool, the man who comes up with a bad idea, or the followers who think it wise?

Respect would imply that it was a decision worth respecting. Rent, Lease, or Mortgage. Those are decisions that can all be respected they all have their own merits .(in order for the curious, no long term commitment, maintenance is somebody else's responsibility, and not being subject to the whim of a landlord.) TPF's choice does not inspire respect, it inspires ridicule.

There is nothing to take a moral stand on here, no membership restrictions, no changes to government, none of the funky terms CN has seen in the past. Just straight up cashflow (and not all that much), but for some reason something as straight forward as 'the defeated alliance pays reparations to the victor' seems to have escaped TPF.

If the terms we end up signing are better, and by that I mean better in TPFs eyes, than the terms posted in the thread by the gentleman with the impossible name (when I mention him, I usually have to copy/paste it) will you still have the same U lost, pay the monies, NAO stance, or will our continued quest to negotiate have been magically worth it ?

[Kzoppistan]

Their fight to lose, and they lost it. Except they spent too long listening to the party line and actually think they can decide who they pay reps too, not even how much, but who they actually pay. Who's the bigger fool, the man who comes up with a bad idea, or the followers who think it wise?

You either failed, or refused, to understand the part about terms being negotiable between parties. This is not an opinion but a fact.

Respect would imply that it was a decision worth respecting. Rent, Lease, or Mortgage. Those are decisions that can all be respected they all have their own merits .(in order for the curious, no long term commitment, maintenance is somebody else's responsibility, and not being subject to the whim of a landlord.) TPF's choice does not inspire respect, it inspires ridicule.

Ok, so in your mind, this decision is not worthy of respect. That is an opinion that quite a few people disagree with. So aside from stating that you find their position not worthy of respect and that it deserves ridicule, what else are you contributing to this besides negativity?

There is nothing to take a moral stand on here, no membership restrictions, no changes to government, none of the funky terms CN has seen in the past. Just straight up cashflow (and not all that much), but for some reason something as straight forward as 'the defeated alliance pays reparations to the victor' seems to have escaped TPF.

You can keep repeating your opinion about what you think good terms are but the only thing you will convince others of is your inability to see things from some one else's perspective.

Personally, like you, I happen to feel that the terms are pretty light, but regardless of what your or my opinion is, if TPF says they disagree with a particular point, then those who want reparations will have find a different carrot/stick in which to motivate them. Trying to out-debate a point some one is firm on is an exercise in futility unless one has a solid argument. A person's opinion with out any further evidence as to why they hold that opinion is not a solid argument. A person's opinion about other people's opinions does not work well, either. You need facts.

"Getting the enemy to approach on his own accord is a matter of showing him advantage;

Stopping him from approaching is a matter of showing him harm."

~ Sun Tzu

If you want to be more convincing in your argument, you'll have to do that ^.

I am confident that the leaders of this terms negotiation are fair and levelheaded enough to work something out.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[PrototyoeRuler]

That's right, we honored a treaty.

Do I have your name wrong, or did I see you about 30 pages back saying you were done with this thread due to chest thumping?

It's so much more fun making a mockery of your alliance.

[BamaBuc]

Their fight to lose, and they lost it. Except they spent too long listening to the party line and actually think they can decide who they pay reps too, not even how much, but who they actually pay. Who's the bigger fool, the man who comes up with a bad idea, or the followers who think it wise?

Respect would imply that it was a decision worth respecting. Rent, Lease, or Mortgage. Those are decisions that can all be respected they all have their own merits .(in order for the curious, no long term commitment, maintenance is somebody else's responsibility, and not being subject to the whim of a landlord.) TPF's choice does not inspire respect, it inspires ridicule.

There is nothing to take a moral stand on here, no membership restrictions, no changes to government, none of the funky terms CN has seen in the past. Just straight up cashflow (and not all that much), but for some reason something as straight forward as 'the defeated alliance pays reparations to the victor' seems to have escaped TPF.

Erm... Yes, we can decide who we pay reps to. It's easy. Say "nope, not paying reps to those guys."

We're not trying to take a great moral stand here. I don't know why you thought we were.

-Bama

[HalfEmpty]

You really can't help pushing the button can you? Seriously. Just let it go. It's just boring and you aren't the least bit witty.

Hell he's found something that works. CN is Lord of the Flies as written by B.F. Skinner

[Haflinger]

Who has had a major gripe with Valhalla since he left.

Uhtred's issues with Valhalla largely stem from the other side.

I refer you to this piece of history.

I'm not sure what that has to do with TPF terms, tho.

[Uhtred]

Who has had a major gripe with Valhalla since he left.

Christ. Your antics on these forums are hysterical. Even ignoring the delusional ramblings for a moment the fact that you claim people only respond to your nonsense because you are in Valhalla is hilarious. When you get caught in a hole the best way to get out does not involve digging downwards with piss poor accusations about your arguments being dismissed because of your alliance - they are dismissed because they are ridiculous. The fact that you can't even make the mud you throw at Tyga stick and have to resort to 'Well Uhtred has a gripe with Valhalla' is even more pathetic.

And so you know, my issues with your alliance derive not from leaving but from your actions towards me and mine since then.

[b3x]

Erm... Yes, we can decide who we pay reps to. It's easy. Say "nope, not paying reps to those guys."

We're not trying to take a great moral stand here. I don't know why you thought we were.

-Bama

everyone knows what you are trying to do ... you are trying to sway public opinion ... get some alliances to come to the table and negotiate separate peace, and leave us out to dry. you want their leadership to say "damn, we could be out of this war if it wasn't for PC wanting reps. hmmm maybe we can just ... yadda yadda yadda". it could work ... it just might. but don't insult our intelligence and act like its some sort of issue about a nap, and that nap breakers don't deserve anything. cause everyone understands that it was a poorly written nap, and PC acted in accordance with the way it was written. PERIOD. there is no argument here, you can try to e-lawyer all you want but that fact is inescapable.

your nothing more than petulant children, upset that the game isn't going the way you want it too, so your gonna try to take your ball and go home. man up, pay your reps, get on with your rebuilding, and next time you might be rolling us. seriously, you are all embarrassing yourselves, and i am embarrassed for you. have some pride, have some honor ...

[Kung Fu Geeks]

everyone knows what you are trying to do ... you are trying to sway public opinion ... get some alliances to come to the table and negotiate separate peace, and leave us out to dry. you want their leadership to say "damn, we could be out of this war if it wasn't for PC wanting reps. hmmm maybe we can just ... yadda yadda yadda". it could work ... it just might. but don't insult our intelligence and act like its some sort of issue about a nap, and that nap breakers don't deserve anything. cause everyone understands that it was a poorly written nap, and PC acted in accordance with the way it was written. PERIOD. there is no argument here, you can try to e-lawyer all you want but that fact is inescapable.

your nothing more than petulant children, upset that the game isn't going the way you want it too, so your gonna try to take your ball and go home. man up, pay your reps, get on with your rebuilding, and next time you might be rolling us. seriously, you are all embarrassing yourselves, and i am embarrassed for you. have some pride, have some honor ...

Seems to me that MK brought this to the public first. Of course since it was already brought into the public as a PR move (hey look easy reps, yet they wont take them, TPF wants this war) then TPF is going to respond with a PR move of their own (PC is ebil, we will never pay them anything).

To think they'd do anything else means one just isn't paying attention to how things have always worked on planet bob.

[potato]

Seems to me that MK brought this to the public first. Of course since it was already brought into the public as a PR move (hey look easy reps, yet they wont take them, TPF wants this war) then TPF is going to respond with a PR move of their own (PC is ebil, we will never pay them anything).

To think they'd do anything else means one just isn't paying attention to how things have always worked on planet bob.

Save from a few useless trolls, my friend, our PR is doing fine, thank you very much.

Azaghul's thread wasn't a PR move. It was an answer to the every growing posts/mentions/queries of "MK/PC and co won't let TPF get peace". Both public and private. We presented our point of view to the public: "THIS is where we are, we offered terms, TPF refused them. That's the hold up." Nothing else.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Save from a few useless trolls, my friend, our PR is doing fine, thank you very much.

Azaghul's thread wasn't a PR move. It was an answer to the every growing posts/mentions/queries of "MK/PC and co won't let TPF get peace". Both public and private. We presented our point of view to the public: "THIS is where we are, we offered terms, TPF refused them. That's the hold up." Nothing else.

PR == public relations.

Azaghul creating a public thread to answer the ever growing posts/mentions/gueries of "MK/PC and co won't let TPF get peace" is done for public relations, thus, it is in fact a PR move (ok, i did in fact add the bit about TPF wants this war, which i dont believe was in Azaghul's post). I did not say it was trying to spin anything, i just said it was a PR move. and since MK brought it to the public, TPF responded to the public by stating their reasons for not accepting the terms thus that becomes their PR move.

TPFs PR move may be trying to add a little spin on things, but it doesn't look like that to me.

Anyway, the point of my original post was that Azaghul brought it to the public first, and of course TPF is going to respond in public once it was brought there. I don't know if they'd have ever brought it to the public first, but that doesn't matter as it can't happen that way now.

[TypoNinja]

You either failed, or refused, to understand the part about terms being negotiable between parties. This is not an opinion but a fact.

Where did I say they couldn't negotiate? Let em. They can negotiate all they want. But I have a hard time believing they are going to talk their way out of paying reps completely.

Ok, so in your mind, this decision is not worthy of respect. That is an opinion that quite a few people disagree with. So aside from stating that you find their position not worthy of respect and that it deserves ridicule, what else are you contributing to this besides negativity?

Rationality? Surprise reality isn't always positive, in fact the reality of losing a war is pretty much always negative.

You can keep repeating your opinion about what you think good terms are but the only thing you will convince others of is your inability to see things from some one else's perspective.

My opinion? A months worth of aid slots from a fraction of the alliance? Thats not an opinion, I dare anyone to argue with a straight face that those are hard terms. Those terms are a slap on the wrist.

Personally, like you, I happen to feel that the terms are pretty light, but regardless of what your or my opinion is, if TPF says they disagree with a particular point, then those who want reparations will have find a different carrot/stick in which to motivate them. Trying to out-debate a point some one is firm on is an exercise in futility unless one has a solid argument. A person's opinion with out any further evidence as to why they hold that opinion is not a solid argument. A person's opinion about other people's opinions does not work well, either. You need facts.

There are lots of facts, you just haven't been paying attention.

The problem here is their sticking point, There is no need for a new carrot and stick (lovely btw) becuase TPF isnt holding it up based on something that is changeable, they are not arguing duration, not arguing amount, they are trying to get out of paying all together (to one alliance at least) The problem with that is that the people who they don't want to pay, have no motive what so ever to accept TPF's demand about them not getting anything. They are not asking for a crazy amount, so theres no upswell of public support to change pubic opinion in a way that might influence their policy, they are prefectly happy beating TPF into an even finer pulp than it is now, and TPF doesn't have the ability to prevent more beatings.

"Getting the enemy to approach on his own accord is a matter of showing him advantage;

Stopping him from approaching is a matter of showing him harm."

~ Sun Tzu

If you want to be more convincing in your argument, you'll have to do that ^.

Oh the argument for it is pretty straight forward, I've repeated it dozens of times. Holding out for better terms only works when the terms are worse than continuing the war, otherwise its still a net loss, If terms go down 200 million but you took another 400 mil in damage while being stubborn you have won NOTHING. Stalling as a negotiating tactic for the losing party only works if you have managed to secure a ceasefire while negotiating terms, something that almost never happens on Planet bob. Stalling without the ceasefire just ensures the further destruction of the alliance.

I am confident that the leaders of this terms negotiation are fair and levelheaded enough to work something out.

I'm not, if TPF's leadership had a lick of common sense they'd have been out of the war the same day NPO was.

[maxnmike]

I don't think anyone from TPF said they were hard terms. They said that they are not going to give PC anything, nor should they. It doesn't matter how the treaty was worded or what the perceived intent was, that facts are that PC broke the treaty not TPF and thus deserve nothing from TPF but their scorn.

[TypoNinja]

I don't think anyone from TPF said they were hard terms. They said that they are not going to give PC anything, nor should they. It doesn't matter how the treaty was worded or what the perceived intent was, that facts are that PC broke the treaty not TPF and thus deserve nothing from TPF but their scorn.

I can just as easily say it doesn't matter why they don't want to send money to PC, they lost a war and reps are what happens.

Edited August 1, 2009 by TypoNinja

[b3x]

I don't think anyone from TPF said they were hard terms. They said that they are not going to give PC anything, nor should they. It doesn't matter how the treaty was worded or what the perceived intent was, that facts are that PC broke the treaty not TPF and thus deserve nothing from TPF but their scorn.

Let me give you a lesson in Opinion and fact:

The fact is: PC acted within the guidelines of the treaty as worded.

Your opinion is: PC broke the treaty.

See the difference there?

Good day sir.

[maxnmike]

What you seem to fail to understand is that if TPF really doesn't want to send PC any reps, there is nothing you or they can do about it. All the whining and complaining in the world won't change that simple fact. If TPF is committed to never paying PC reps you can't make them no matter how big and bad you think you are.

[maxnmike]

Let me give you a lesson in Opinion and fact:

The fact is: PC acted within the guidelines of the treaty as worded.

Your opinion is: PC broke the treaty.

See the difference there?

Good day sir.

The fact is that PC broke the treaty to cancel it. Good day to you as well.

[Seerow]

What you seem to fail to understand is that if TPF really doesn't want to send PC any reps, there is nothing you or they can do about it. All the whining and complaining in the world won't change that simple fact. If TPF is committed to never paying PC reps you can't make them no matter how big and bad you think you are.

True, but likewise if we do not want to give them peace until they agree to pay fair reparations to PC, there's nothing they can do about it, no matter how big and bad they think they are.

[b3x]

What you seem to fail to understand is that if TPF really doesn't want to send PC any reps, there is nothing you or they can do about it. All the whining and complaining in the world won't change that simple fact. If TPF is committed to never paying PC reps you can't make them no matter how big and bad you think you are.

Wow, what a profound statement. I think it is time to lay this thread to rest. Can anything more really be said after that?