New raid tactic or epic fail?

[Drostan]

Well, reading over the terms it does state that the orignial form of the Revenge Doctrine can't be brought back. I kinda took it to mean that the part about the NPO having complete sovereignty over red couldn't be brought back instead of the idea that the NPO will protect unaligned red nations. Am I wrong in that interpretation or what?

/and yes, I do realize that even if the above were the case, it's not quite enforceable until the NPO is finished with terms. I'm just curious since the fact that a safe haven for unaligned was offered was one of the things I liked about the NPO.

It was a brilliant recruitment strategy. And I must admit that for those who really wanted to go it alone, having an alliance protecting a colour sphere is very useful. I wonder if tech-raiding will become a more hot topic in future politics.

[Ogaden]

Well, reading over the terms it does state that the orignial form of the Revenge Doctrine can't be brought back. I kinda took it to mean that the part about the NPO having complete sovereignty over red couldn't be brought back instead of the idea that the NPO will protect unaligned red nations. Am I wrong in that interpretation or what?

/and yes, I do realize that even if the above were the case, it's not quite enforceable until the NPO is finished with terms. I'm just curious since the fact that a safe haven for unaligned was offered was one of the things I liked about the NPO.

You're thinking of the Moldavi Doctrine, which declares our sovereignty over the Red Sphere, we dropped that on our own a few months ago.

The Revenge Doctrine is the one that protects the red sphere unaligned from raiders. Since we signed the terms the Red sphere has no protection, and even when the terms expire we are forbidden from re-enforcing it.

Edited July 23, 2009 by James Dahl

[kamino]

Dear Tulak Hord,

at 12:22:51 AM this morning El Diablo was savagly attacked by Soviet Arctic States. I request that sanctins be brought against Soviet Arctic States. You may check out the discussion on this on the CN forums at http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=64153 in these times after the karma war it would be ashame to see a new wave of savagry sweep across planet Bob and actions need to be taken to show that these actions will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your time,

Kamino

[King Srqt]

He's an unaligned Red, KingSrqt, and yes back in the day we wouldn't have allowed this sort of crap. We wouldn't have allowed the raid in the first place and would have made him 'suffer the consequences' if he nuked an unaligned Red for not complying with his raid.

Welcome to the world without the Revenge Doctrine.

Its the behavior that bothers me not the color of the nation. "this kind of crap" was pulled all the time when NPO was in power, many times by NPO's own allies, and NPO didn't care. If NPO was still in power this same thing would be happening just on a different color. I liked the revenge doctrine and was sad to see it go but to say that it eliminated this type of thing is a gross over exaggeration.

Edited July 23, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Vilien]

You're thinking of the Moldavi Doctrine, which declares our sovereignty over the Red Sphere, we dropped that on our own a few months ago.

The Revenge Doctrine is the one that protects the red sphere from raiders.

The Revenge Doctrine was unfortunately canceled in Pacifica's surrender terms.

[Lord of Destruction]

I agree, King DrunkWino. NPO protecting red was a good thing to do. As long as they don't claim they own red when they reestablish the revenge doctrine, then I think they're allowed to do it after terms. We'll see.

[kamino]

FYI, "condonement" is not a word, and "to condone" means you agree with it, or at the least allow it to happen. Were you trying to condemn his actions?

According to the merriam-webster dictionary it is.

[Ogaden]

I agree, King DrunkWino. NPO protecting red was a good thing to do. As long as they don't claim they own red when they reestablish the revenge doctrine, then I think they're allowed to do it after terms. We'll see.

We are forbidden from re-instating it "in it's original form" (whatever that means).

So it's pretty much open season on Red unaligned.

Edited July 23, 2009 by James Dahl

[Lord of Destruction]

We are forbidden from re-instating it "in it's original form" (whatever that means).

So it's pretty much open season on Red unaligned.

Th original form proclaimed you owned red, and allowed for the DevilDogs war.

[King DrunkWino]

It was a brilliant recruitment strategy. And I must admit that for those who really wanted to go it alone, having an alliance protecting a colour sphere is very useful. I wonder if tech-raiding will become a more hot topic in future politics.

On a personal note, I kinda think tech-raiding is an exercise in futility from the start. You honestly don't get a whole lot from it, even if you hit an inactive nation and as this topic is showing all it takes is one guy doing it wrong and that alliance will end up with a very public black eye. On top of that, strictly from a players perspective, hitting somebody for no good reason and that isn't bothering you can very well be taking as greifing. Especially in those cases where it turns into two or even three on one. I mean, even if you bring up the fact that land can be easily gotten from raiding, the counter is that land is kinda useless.

In that regard, I do hope raiding becomes a hotter topic as we move on. Heck, if you want to fight so bad, it really ain't all that tough to find people that would actually WANT to give you some action. Now if all you want to do is loot some poor shmo and threaten to nuke him if he dares fight back or tries to decrease your loot, man that's just screwed up to start with.

[Luis Quezada]

the stupidity of the raider and his alliance's "authorization" baffles me

[Ogaden]

Its the behavior that bothers me not the color of the nation. "this kind of crap" was pulled all the time when NPO was in power, many times by NPO's own allies, and NPO didn't care. If NPO was still in power this same thing would be happening just on a different color. I liked the revenge doctrine and was sad to see it go but to say that it eliminated this type of thing is a gross over exaggeration.

We never claimed to be the world police, we drew a line around the Red sphere and declared it safe from raiding.

The Pink Warrior Network has done a similar thing lately and that is admirable, if every color sphere did the same CN would be a better place.

[Ogaden]

Th original form proclaimed you owned red, and allowed for the DevilDogs war.

The Revenge Doctrine doesn't say anything about ownership of Red. Say what you will about the Moldavi doctrine, but what is the rationale for banning the Revenge Doctrine?

[flak attack]

We never claimed to be the world police, we drew a line around the Red sphere and declared it safe from raiding.

The Pink Warrior Network has done a similar thing lately and that is admirable, if every color sphere did the same CN would be a better place.

Actually, PWN hasn't said no raiding on pink, they have said "No being a dick to people you raid on pink", something I assume this would fall under.

[Drostan]

On a personal note, I kinda think tech-raiding is an exercise in futility from the start. You honestly don't get a whole lot from it, even if you hit an inactive nation and as this topic is showing all it takes is one guy doing it wrong and that alliance will end up with a very public black eye. On top of that, strictly from a players perspective, hitting somebody for no good reason and that isn't bothering you can very well be taking as greifing. Especially in those cases where it turns into two or even three on one. I mean, even if you bring up the fact that land can be easily gotten from raiding, the counter is that land is kinda useless.

In that regard, I do hope raiding becomes a hotter topic as we move on. Heck, if you want to fight so bad, it really ain't all that tough to find people that would actually WANT to give you some action. Now if all you want to do is loot some poor shmo and threaten to nuke him if he dares fight back or tries to decrease your loot, man that's just screwed up to start with.

Yeah, I mean it's a touchy subject as many alliances I know and like well engage in tech-raiding. But I too find it problematic. I agree that the effectiveness of tech raiding is highly suspect but I believe that likely it is a way of staving off boredom in most cases more than anything. There's no question that tech-raiding, especially among newer players, leads to many deletions in my mind. At a time when so many are crying about dwindling numbers in CN it does indeed seem strange to actively bully new players for marginal benefit.

I think we should encourage more of a dueling society. heh. When people have a heated arguement and wish to resolve their differences on the field of battle, they approach their respective leaders and get authorization for a 1 vs 1 conflict for 10 days. That's fun, doesn't do too much damage, and helps to avoid the boredom that drives many to griefing unaligned nations. I think it also adds a certain dynamic to the OWF that is kind of cool. And everyone loves to display the notches on their belt

[King DrunkWino]

We are forbidden from re-instating it "in it's original form" (whatever that means).

So it's pretty much open season on Red unaligned.

Th original form proclaimed you owned red, and allowed for the DevilDogs war.

That's kinda what I'm driving at (and for Admin sake, drop the King title will ya.) Looking over the original document, what I'm wondering is the NPO thinking of taking this...

Lately, there has been some "confusion" regarding the New Pacific Order's Color Sphere. Let me dispel this confusion and make it abundantly clear where we stand, and have stood for almost two years.

The New Pacific Order has complete sovereignty over the Red Team.

What this means is simple: we decide who may hold Senate seats on the red team, who may be sanctioned on the red team and so forth. We take our sovereignty extremely seriously and any violations of our rules in our territory will result in action from the Order.

For nearly two years the Order has sought to bring peace, strength and prosperity to the Red Team through the Moldavi Doctrine, and indeed, throughout this time, we red nations have seen an unrivaled stability that has allowed us to flourish.

However, the Order moves ever onwards and it is important that the red team is equally progressive. In so doing, we reaffirm both our commitment and responsibility to the Red Team. We do this by implementing the following policy:

"No nation residing in the red team may be raided."

Henceforth, the New Pacific Order will extend its sphere of protection over any unaligned red team nation being tech raided by a foreign or domestic military. Any violation of this policy will be regarded and dealt with as a violation of Pacifican sovereignty.

As always we will attempt to solve problems via diplomacy before resorting to military action, and we do not promise compensation to the attacked nation, but we do expect any issue to be resolved quickly and to our satisfaction. However, a nation running from justice may not hide behind our shield. A nation seeking to make use of this policy must be on the red team when attacked.

Any attempt to circumvent our sovereignty and bypass this policy will be dealt with harshly.

A strong, sovereign red team is in the interests of every red nation, and I invite to be a part of it those peaceful nations who seek a life outside of the dangers inherent in other teams. Those who come seeking to cause trouble, however, will find it in abundance. The age of international anarchy in the red team is over.

One team, One alliance, One Emperor.

Signed: TrotskysRevenge, Emperor of the New Pacific Order

and turning it into this...

"No nation residing in the red team may be raided."

Henceforth, the New Pacific Order will extend its sphere of protection over any unaligned red team nation being tech raided by a foreign or domestic military. Any violation of this policy will be regarded and dealt with as a violation of Pacifican sovereignty.

As always we will attempt to solve problems via diplomacy before resorting to military action, and we do not promise compensation to the attacked nation, but we do expect any issue to be resolved quickly and to our satisfaction. However, a nation running from justice may not hide behind our shield. A nation seeking to make use of this policy must be on the red team when attacked.

Any attempt to circumvent our sovereignty and bypass this policy will be dealt with harshly.

A strong, sovereign red team is in the interests of every red nation, and I invite to be a part of it those peaceful nations who seek a life outside of the dangers inherent in other teams. Those who come seeking to cause trouble, however, will find it in abundance. The age of international anarchy in the red team is over.

One team, One alliance, One Emperor.

Signed: TrotskysRevenge, Emperor of the New Pacific Order

The idea behind protecting a color from raids isn't a whole new one after all and no matter what's been done in the past and the why behind it doesn't make it a bad policy. Economically, you're protecting your trade interests. It's a brilliant recruitment strategy, and there are a lot of folks that just plain liked the fact that unaligned could go besides the economically crippling peace mode in order to basically play the game in some sort of peace.

--------

The Revenge Doctrine doesn't say anything about ownership of Red. Say what you will about the Moldavi doctrine, but what is the rationale for banning the Revenge Doctrine?

I think it was the bit in the beginning that proclaimed full sovereignty over the red team that raised objections. I honestly don't think that a revised version would rile up the masses against you. It even says in the surrender terms:

IV. The New Pacific Order hereby commits to never reinstating the Moldavi Doctrine or the original version of the Revenge Doctrine in any form. Henceforth, the Red Sphere is a free Sphere, with no restrictions on the Senate or alliance inhabitance.

and like I said, the red protection court was one of the best things about the NPO.

[Draztikus]

@Drostan: The problem with duelling is that no alliance leader is going to allow their members to fight other active nations and stunt their growth outside of actual war. While beating on inactives or other players who can't fight back is a lot safer.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Draztikus

[King Srqt]

We never claimed to be the world police, we drew a line around the Red sphere and declared it safe from raiding.

The Pink Warrior Network has done a similar thing lately and that is admirable, if every color sphere did the same CN would be a better place.

that's kind of my point. You weren't the world police (nor should you have had to have been) and you were more than content to let "this kind of crap" happen all the time. You did make an effort to help reduce it by giving a safe refuge in red but you took no measures to prevent the behavior anywhere else.

The person I originally responded to made a statement that this kind of thing would never be allowed by NPO, which is false. It was allowed all the time, just not on one color.

[Drostan]

@Drostan: The problem with duelling is that no alliance leader is going to allow their members to fight other active nations and stunt their growth outside of actual war. While beating on inactives or other players who can't fight back is a lot safer.

I mean, having never asked I can't be sure, but I feel like if I pointed to some guy I hate and said "Tulak, let me get him! He insulted my dignity" then Tulak would likely say "Make sure you clear it with his government first and we will go from there." Sure, alliance leaders wouldn't want everyone and their brother dueling all the time. But if there was a clear cut case where people had really been butting heads and being nasty to one another, I think it is not an unreasonable thing to do.

But yeah, I guess it does undermine defense to a degree. But like I said, you just couldn't have duels starting left right and center in your alliance.

[King DrunkWino]

I think we should encourage more of a dueling society. heh. When people have a heated arguement and wish to resolve their differences on the field of battle, they approach their respective leaders and get authorization for a 1 vs 1 conflict for 10 days. That's fun, doesn't do too much damage, and helps to avoid the boredom that drives many to griefing unaligned nations. I think it also adds a certain dynamic to the OWF that is kind of cool. And everyone loves to display the notches on their belt

We're starting to see a little of that here and there. I honestly think that it's a great idea that I'm a bit surprised isn't already a fairly commonplace event. There's plenty of folks I like that I'd love a round with just for the fun. Flip side is there are a few folks I'd love to nuke the ever living snot out of. Either could be done in a dueling setup. Fun for the duelists, if they post here it's fun for the rest of us, and it lets people who don't wanna roll that way not have to worry about getting nuked cause they turtled up instead of letting some [blank] loot him.

@Drostan: The problem with duelling is that no alliance leader is going to allow their members to fight other active nations and stunt their growth outside of actual war. While beating on inactives or other players who can't fight back is a lot safer.

I wouldn't go so far as to say no alliance leader would allow it. I can understand saying hold off if there's a war coming, but not letting somebody do it when everything is rolling along just fine is kinda blurring the line between alliance security and player freedom.

[Kzoppistan]

OP, you should go to DT and try to negotiate reps under the premise of a good will gesture. If they flat out refuse you can still engage in my favorite past-time: Plotting Revenge

[twodivine]

Dear Tulak Hord,

at 12:22:51 AM this morning El Diablo was savagly attacked by Soviet Arctic States. I request that sanctins be brought against Soviet Arctic States. You may check out the discussion on this on the CN forums at http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=64153 in these times after the karma war it would be ashame to see a new wave of savagry sweep across planet Bob and actions need to be taken to show that these actions will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your time,

Kamino

I'd appreciate it if you keep your requests for sanctions to your own alliance members. While your sentiment on the situation is well expressed in this. That any sanctions will be handled by the actual parties involved.

---

Now to address the OP.

While it has been said in this threat that we supported or not supported this is the actions that are in the process of being taken. Tsar and Icy Flame have been instructed to peace out and Tsar will pay reps for the damages done by the nuke. It's not within our policy of raiding to take a raid to nuking unless the target has fired a nuke first. I can't explain why this went to this level cause I'm not even sure at this point. At this time DT would like to apologize to Icy Flame for the glowing of his nation and Tsar will be talked to about this. Wish we could of handled this in private instead of bringing this to OWF. No hard feelings on your actions, but in the future please come talk to us first.

Thanks and again Sorry.

[bzelger]

Good show.

[astronaut jones]

When I raided back when I first got nukes, I'd nuke on raids all the time. It's not new, it's dispicable, but it's not new.

[Drostan]

I'd appreciate it if you keep your requests for sanctions to your own alliance members. While your sentiment on the situation is well expressed in this. That any sanctions will be handled by the actual parties involved.

---

Now to address the OP.

While it has been said in this threat that we supported or not supported this is the actions that are in the process of being taken. Tsar and Icy Flame have been instructed to peace out and Tsar will pay reps for the damages done by the nuke. It's not within our policy of raiding to take a raid to nuking unless the target has fired a nuke first. I can't explain why this went to this level cause I'm not even sure at this point. At this time DT would like to apologize to Icy Flame for the glowing of his nation and Tsar will be talked to about this. Wish we could of handled this in private instead of bringing this to OWF. No hard feelings on your actions, but in the future please come talk to us first.

Thanks and again Sorry.

Glad to hear this. I think that everyone started out pretty confident that The Dark Templar would not condone this sort of thing but were slightly confused when it seemed to be an authorized attack. Mix-ups in communication happen to all of us and we all get our glorious moment in the OWF's spiteful sun. heh. It's good to see that this has been taken care of and it is a shame that such a ruckus happened over this.

o/ Dark Templar

o/ Icy McFlame