New change to tech multiplying.

[Solunsford]

Was doing tech deals that exciting for you? I'm sure admin can wip up a TECHDEALZ game just for you. Complete with an arbitrary number that keeps going up...

Alright genius, I'm just saying that tech trading was the one mutually beneficial transaction for both low and high nations that there was. That was just something that I could do to help out newer players that made sense. My big question now is what in the world do I do with my 6 aid slots now?

Edited November 2, 2007 by Solunsford

[DictatorPhilTaylor]

Alright genius, I'm just saying that tech trading was the one mutually beneficial transaction for both low and high nations that there was. That was just something that I could do to help out newer players that made sense. My big question now is what in the world do I do with my 6 aid slots now?

Aid whore the little guys! Lol, good investment.

[Regent of Omerta]

I am sooo freaking pissed off about this update. I'm a tech heavy nation, my nation strength that was artificlaly inflated is now more realistic and my bills have also been reduced because I'm now closer to the 10% threshold for infras upkeep reduction. Oh holy god I'm pissed.

I am assuming this is meant to be sarcastic, if so then read on, if not then don't bother.

The issue here is how it was set up initially then when we all start to play that way, the rules get changed without notice or provocation. What exactly did you think the reactions were going to be? Mine is game on and deal with it, but most won't be happy and you should have known that. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not being complacent about it, but if one of us posted something like that, you or one of the mods would call it flaming and warn us. This should not have been dealt with like this. A post to explain your reasoning might have gone alot farther and better in calming this situation. You can't say you didn't have time for a post because all I have to do is look up.

If I get warned for this, so be it but this should never have been posted in this manner nor addressed like this at all.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Regent of Omerta

[Saborn]

I am assuming this is meant to be sarcastic, if so then read on, if not then don't bother.

The issue here is how it was set up initially then when we all start to play that way, the rules get changed without notice or provocation. What exactly did you think the reactions were going to be? Mine is game on and deal with it, but most won't be happy and you should have known that. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not being complacent about it, but if one of us posted something like that, you or one of the mods would call it flaming and warn us. This should not have been dealt with like this. A post to explain your reasoning might have gone alot farther and better in calming this situation. You can't say you didn't have time for a post because all I have to do is look up.

If I get warned for this, so be it but this should never have been posted in this manner nor addressed like this at all.

There are obvious reasons for the change scattered throughout this entire thread and forum

While people don't like the changes because their nation strength decreased (Mine dropped by about 8,000 or a quarter of my NS and I don't care) the changes do have the potential to make the game better in the long run.

[Saborn]

Yes like i said before. I am a 3,400 infra, and I am in the same range as most 9,000 infra's. I dont even see a point of the 1/2 to 200% rule anymore.

I suggested earlier in this thread that the range should be changed to say, 75% - 150%

There is still plenty of time for follow up 'tweaks' and the coming nuclear war between GPA and ~ should be a nice demonstration of the influence these changes will have on the war system relative to whole sale nuclear 'bloc' conflicts.

*cue lulz there wunt b a war u nub

Edited November 2, 2007 by Saborn

[SyndicatedINC]

Yes like i said before. I am a 3,400 infra, and I am in the same range as most 9,000 infra's. I dont even see a point of the 1/2 to 200% rule anymore.

Exactly, the +200%/-50% range needs to be reduced or simply done away with now. The new change to NS has made it so that nations which are not in the top tier have such a wide band of potential enemies that nations on their upper NS bounds can anarchy them in a single attack, regardless of having max military or not!!

What is the point of the bounds, if my outer bounds nation can anarchy me in a single ground attack, how is that (barring Nukes themselves) any different from me fighting a top 20 nation? Both will be destroying my infra and tech at the max rate, both will anarchy me in a single attack. Seriously what purpose does +200%/-50% serve anymore?

[Bob Janova]

I'm just going to counter some of the dafter arguments the 'con' crowd have for this change.

First though, the good points.

- Yes, there are now a lot more nations in range as a result of the compression of NS; I have started a thread in Suggestions to decrease the 50-200% range, please go post in that.

- Yes, more warning of such a large change would have been nice, but it's no good whinging about that now, although hopefully Admin will warn us before making any more large changes.

Okay, now the rubbish.

My NS went down, this is terrible, bawwww!

So did everyone else's, get over it, most people will still be in roughly the same ranking order anyway.

I had 3,000 tech and my rank went down/I fell out of nuke range!

So it should, as 2700 of that tech wasn't actually helping your nation in any way in the first place.

Tech dealing is no more, woe is me!

I'll buy your tech at $1m per 50, the same price I've been buying or selling tech at for a year. So will any other Grämlin. Tech dealing will still be exactly the same boost to new nations as it always was.

Tech raiding isn't worth it any more!

The value of tech raiding is in financial gain (not gain in NS) or for fun, neither of which have changed.

Now we have to fight with sticks!

No you don't. Just as before, military advancement stops at 300 tech. If you think that's a bad idea, nip over to Suggestions and post in the thread about removing the cap. Combat is the same as it was, except for tech being destroyable.

[SyndicatedINC]

- Yes, there are now a lot more nations in range as a result of the compression of NS; I have started a thread in Suggestions to decrease the 50-200% range, please go post in that.

Thank you, good idea, hehe why didn't I think of that lol.

Heading over there now.

So it should, as 2700 of that tech wasn't actually helping your nation in any way in the first place.

Well there is the GU, but yeah, otherwise pretty pointless.

[Enrique Barrentos]

LOL are you being sarcastic? I really can't tell and am curious.

Either way I agree

Nope. No sarcasm. I was being honest. Good points in you post leads to praise, not sarcasm!

[Finster Baby]

Hmm...

My first reaction was to be pissed. I lost ~11k NS, which, compared to some of you, is peanuts.

But after several hours to reflect, maybe this isn't such a bad idea. My only REAL gripe about the whole tech thing is this: Admin would have been better to have given CN some notice that this was going to occur. To leave for work one morning with 32K NS and come home at 21K *IS* a blind side, no matter how you slice it. Those who point out that nothing has really changed, just the weighting are right.

If anyone really is unhappy and wants to dump tech, I have $3M for you for 150, and I'd be glad to do it.

However, and maybe someone more savvy than I am can suggest this in the approriate location (I don't need credit) a sliding scale of tech/NS weighting could be created. This would really reflect how technology helps a nation. Something along the lines of this:

First 150 tech = 20ns weighting

150.01 - 250 = 15ns weighting

250.01 - 350 = 10ns weighting

350.01+ = 5ns weighting

Since afte 300, the only thing it does is increase NS, then the lowest multiplier should be applied. Yeah, that might be difficult to code, but it would accurately reflect technology on a nation's strength in real world terms.

Just a thought...

[SyndicatedINC]

To leave for work one morning with 32K NS and come home at 21K *IS* a blind side, no matter how you slice it.

True, many people are probably more upset over this 'blind side' than anything else.

First 150 tech = 20ns weighting

150.01 - 250 = 15ns weighting

250.01 - 350 = 10ns weighting

350.01+ = 5ns weighting

Shouldn't the drop off start occurring after 300 since that is the tech cap on military effectiveness? Maybe go from 20 to 15 after level 100 and the tank drop-off, but there is a huge difference in value of tech in war between a nation with 300 tech and a nation with 200. This scale as currently setup does not really address that as well as it could.

Otherwise great idea!!

[Trace]

So I was really ticked off at first too. Then I realized, it changes nothing but the overall NS of your nation.

Now, since everyone is so much closer in rank, 250NS (from 50tech) makes as much of a difference as the 1000NS from 50tech did before the update. It's just as valuable.

Just drawing on an example from my alliance. A guy at 26.5K and a guy at 27.5K. There are over 200 people in between. 250NS will boost you just as much as before.

Quit all your whining its fine how it is. NS is just a number.

[hashmo]

This is total BS

I am not entertained by this newfangled method of calculating Nation Strength at all.

I was so close to being in the top 5% yesterday, I was at 5.4%. Today I dropped to 7.2%

That's ridiculous.

[Masta]

So I was really ticked off at first too. Then I realized, it changes nothing but the overall NS of your nation.

Now, since everyone is so much closer in rank, 250NS (from 50tech) makes as much of a difference as the 1000NS from 50tech did before the update. It's just as valuable.

Just drawing on an example from my alliance. A guy at 26.5K and a guy at 27.5K. There are over 200 people in between. 250NS will boost you just as much as before.

Quit all your whining its fine how it is. NS is just a number.

This is my problem with it. I've had people tell me that I should just sell my tech and buy infra with that money, but the highest anyone I can find is willing to pay for 50 tech is 3 mil. So I could sell 50 tech for 3 mil and drop 250 NS, and I could use that 3 mil to buy 27.6 infra, which would net me 82.8 NS. So if I did what these people have repeatedly suggested I would lose 167.2 NS for every such transaction I performed.

[sarcasm]These people are brilliant. [/sarcasm]

Some of us play this game for rank and NS, because without rank or NS it wouldn't be a game worth playing, it would just be a more graphical version of Nation StupidityStates. Games always have ranking, they always have winners, the purpose of a game is to compete against other players to see who's better at the game. Now there are other people who were below me in rank before that are now higher than me and are thus 'better' at the game than me, even though we both used perfectly legal methods of nation building. I just got passed in ranking by 3 people less than a 100 days old who were almost 10k NS below me prior to this, when I'm at 511 days old.

They are better than me because Admin decided to change the formula's, not because they have any better skills at playing the game. That's what pisses me off.

Bah, forget it. I'm sure I'll enjoy watching all these newb's passing me by every day.

FYI - I have repeatedly stated I agree with tech being reduced, but reducing it by 75% while not lowering tech prices or doing anything to infra is BS.

[Edit] Spelling.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Masta

[Zangmonkey]

-----

For the first time since I've been involved with the game I see a change that is EXACTLY the one that should have been made. The tech modifier was not a realistic measure of the benefit of technology; it artificially increased NS in a manner that actually hurt nations in the long run (because they looked stronger than they actually were). The change hurts nations only on paper; frankly, the infra-heavy nations were always "superior" to begin with, in real-strength terms. Anyone playing this game for any length of time should by now have figured out that Infra is the lightning to technology's thunder (the thunder makes the noise but the lightning does the work). The only people this really hurts (and that's only in the short-term) are technology dealers (I know a little something about that since tech dealing is the entire principle behind the Alliance that I founded) and tech buyers who are in the middle of a deal. Still, I'm ELATED by this change. People will still buy tech. People will still need tech. Tech will still have a great benefit for nations. It just won't have the out-of-whack value that it had before.

This was a good move.

-----

I find your post ironic considering the basis for your alliance's finances was the sale of tech (and you were very good at it)

[thomas20]

Alright genius, I'm just saying that tech trading was the one mutually beneficial transaction for both low and high nations that there was. That was just something that I could do to help out newer players that made sense. My big question now is what in the world do I do with my 6 aid slots now?

If your goal is philanthropic in nature, just send them the aid straight. It saves them the money they would have had to use buying the tech and the aid slots they would have had to use. I have been using my six aid slots to send out straight aid for months now. Since you won't be getting tech back you'll have even more aid slots to send out more aid.

Nope. No sarcasm. I was being honest. Good points in you post leads to praise, not sarcasm!

Now I'm really not sure if you are being sarcastic or not lol.

Anyways thanks.

And just in case you are being sarcastic my "thanks" is as well

Hmm...

My first reaction was to be pissed. I lost ~11k NS, which, compared to some of you, is peanuts.

But after several hours to reflect, maybe this isn't such a bad idea. My only REAL gripe about the whole tech thing is this: Admin would have been better to have given CN some notice that this was going to occur. To leave for work one morning with 32K NS and come home at 21K *IS* a blind side, no matter how you slice it. Those who point out that nothing has really changed, just the weighting are right.

If anyone really is unhappy and wants to dump tech, I have $3M for you for 150, and I'd be glad to do it.

However, and maybe someone more savvy than I am can suggest this in the approriate location (I don't need credit) a sliding scale of tech/NS weighting could be created. This would really reflect how technology helps a nation. Something along the lines of this:

First 150 tech = 20ns weighting

150.01 - 250 = 15ns weighting

250.01 - 350 = 10ns weighting

350.01+ = 5ns weighting

Since afte 300, the only thing it does is increase NS, then the lowest multiplier should be applied. Yeah, that might be difficult to code, but it would accurately reflect technology on a nation's strength in real world terms.

Just a thought...

I can understand those frustrated by not getting any advanced notice. However if admin had given notice of the changes nothing would have actually changed, it would have just extended the whining period. Its not like if admin gave people a one week warning people could have converted all their tech into infra. It would just give those people an extra week to complain.

I would be in favor of weighting tech but that would just make more people angry. If we are weighting the value of tech 5 would not be the low point, it would be near the high end IMO. The low end would be approaching zero. [

[MOAIS]

I find your post ironic considering the basis for your alliance's finances was the sale of tech (and you were very good at it)

LOL oh it's more than a little ironic...but those who know me know I believe first and foremost in justice, honor and the application of intelligence. While I reluctantly accept this change as a tech dealer, I wholeheartedly embrace it as a player. I think tech was improperly responsible for the building of our "scores" when in fact the benefit of tech was limited AT BEST. This solution is still not the right one, but it's a step in the right direction. Advanced technology makes a huge difference in the economy and military of a nation; that advancement doesn't "cap" in any way. The United States, with each new microchip, moves light years ahead of third-world countries. Likewise our military (when it's actually unleashed) would decimate even the largest army of lesser-equipped soldiers. So the problem with tech in CN is actually that it doesn't carry its correct value in real terms--but to have it carry that value in "false" terms (IE increased nation strength when in fact no increase was taking place) is actually worse. That's why I like this move--it corrects a misperception in NS.

Ultimately the admins should be looking at ways to properly administer the application of technology upon real strength. People have suggested that tech's influence on NS should be scaled. I disagree. What should be scaled is tech's REAL influence (and likewise it's effect on NS as a result of it's real increase to such). There should be no cap...but at the same time, larger nations should not be able to just roll over smaller ones (for gameplay purposes) because they're older and better financed. I believe that TECH SHOULD BE SCALED IN REAL TERMS, that TECH'S EFFECT ON NATION STRENGTH SHOULD BE DIRECTLY TIED TO THIS REAL-TERM FIGURE, and that THE PRICE OF TECH SHOULD CLIMB MUCH MORE SHARPLY THAN IT DOES...and it shouldn't be a breeze to just go to a small nation and say "here, sell me some". There should be a restriction of some kind formulated for that, too.

What the game needs after that, I believe, is a REAL commodities market. If the admins want to make this interesting, give us something more than just tech to work with--and make nations ASSEMBLE their technology. That would open up all kinds of new markets, and it would allow tech to carry its proper value without the loophole of tech-dealing being a loophole after all. Small nations would deal in commodities. Commodities would be used to build tech. Bringing tech online would have an additional cost to the nations doing so. In this way we all get something proper out of the deal.

-----

[Crussell]

I'm just going to throw my 2 cents into the matter.

It was quite a scare, as for many of you were probably like me, scattering through my nations details looking for answers.

A little mass message would've been a good idea, if it was a tiny change like the pictures added to religion and government I wouldn't have minded but this has taken time to get used to.

It's not like much has changed really for my nation, it's just like coming out of a war, you just have to get back on your feet.

Does this mean a stop to tech deals?

Seen as Tech isn't such a want anymore.

-Crussell.

[Veritas]

If its such a joke why does it matter?

At least now NS will be representative of actual strength. The ratings people have dropped is only paper-ratings. In reality, all those people now above them we're always stronger, just not as tech-inflated...

The nation strength formula is not more accurate! By decreasing the ns value of tech it proportionatly increased the value of active military since active military is meaningless to large nations (like i said before i could buy 1.2million tanks and time i feel like it if there was no limit) it is even more unaccurate than it was before. Like i posted before a nation with 2k less tech and 1.2k less infrastructure than myself has a higher ns, two days ago i was 40,000ns higher than this person and today he's higher than me due to his inflated military. Please explain to me how ns is more accurate. Atleast the way before it took alot of time to increase your ns through tech deals and in that time you also increased your infrastructure, but now you can increase the % of your nations strength very easily simply by purchasing more dirt cheap military. What admin should have done is raised the value of infrastructure, maybe to something like 15ns for inf. heck he still could have lowered tech to maybe 15, 10, or heck i'd still be happy if he lowered it to 5 as long as i didn't lose ns rankings to nations so obviously weaker than my own.

-Veritas

P.S. People against this idea please stop using the "this will hurt tech deals argument" it will have a very small effect on tech deals as tech is still the most efficient way for most nations to gain ns. There are so many good arguments for why this update is a bad move lets try and use them and actually make these people use something other than "your just mad because your ns is a smaller number"

Edited November 2, 2007 by Veritas

[Solunsford]

If your goal is philanthropic in nature, just send them the aid straight. It saves them the money they would have had to use buying the tech and the aid slots they would have had to use. I have been using my six aid slots to send out straight aid for months now. Since you won't be getting tech back you'll have even more aid slots to send out more aid.

How did anything that I said indicate that my goal was philanthropic? Do you even read the things that you respond to, or do you just try to come up with the response that skews what the person your quoting the most possible to suit your cause?

The fact is that this topic is split down the middle based on who it weren't effected, who got screwed and who didn't get screwed.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Solunsford

[idriveavw]

This is my problem with it. I've had people tell me that I should just sell my tech and buy infra with that money, but the highest anyone I can find is willing to pay for 50 tech is 3 mil. So I could sell 50 tech for 3 mil and drop 250 NS, and I could use that 3 mil to buy 27.6 infra, which would net me 82.8 NS. So if I did what these people have repeatedly suggested I would lose 167.2 NS for every such transaction I performed.

[sarcasm]These people are brilliant. [/sarcasm]

i think you are missing the point of us offering to buy your "worthless" tech. the calculations you just provided show exactly what we were talking about last night when we first started offering to buy tech. tech is still the fastest way to inflate your NS, even though it is worth less (NS-wise) than it did before. infra gives a x3 multiplier. tech is x5.

the point of our offer was to show you that tech is not, in fact, worthless (and to get some easy tech from ignorant players that don't want to go to the trouble of figuring that out)

[Veritas]

Please people STOP SAYING TECH IS WORTHLESS I think this update was a terrible move however TECH IS STILL THE BEST WAY TO GROW YOUR NS! Had this update been in place 6 months ago i would have grown my nation the exact same way. So many people come to these forums and say I lost a bunch of ns and now my tech is worthless, your making our side look stupid! This update is bad because It grants active military far too much importance and because it didn't not fix the problem of ns not reflecting your actual strength in war. It accomplished nothing but pissing off over half of cybernations.

-Veritas

[Nymraud]

i think you are missing the point of us offering to buy your "worthless" tech. the calculations you just provided show exactly what we were talking about last night when we first started offering to buy tech. tech is still the fastest way to inflate your NS, even though it is worth less (NS-wise) than it did before. infra gives a x3 multiplier. tech is x5.

the point of our offer was to show you that tech is not, in fact, worthless (and to get some easy tech from ignorant players that don't want to go to the trouble of figuring that out)

Yes, tech is now worthless. Your post overlooks the fact that tech is A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE than infra. You can't buy equal amounts of tech and infra, you can buy a lot more infra than you can tech, and increase in strength by buying infra a lot faster than by buying tech. I'm not going to do the math, but surely you can see the general idea? It's not that I'm going to sell all my tech now, I'm not going to send any of it. But I certainly don't see any need for me to buy tech again for a long long time.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Nymraud

[Regent of Omerta]

There are obvious reasons for the change scattered throughout this entire thread and forum

While people don't like the changes because their nation strength decreased (Mine dropped by about 8,000 or a quarter of my NS and I don't care) the changes do have the potential to make the game better in the long run.

I think your missing my point. I would suggest rereading what I wrote and think along the lines of what was said and how it was said. The fact that the tech multiplier was changed is no big deal. It's the comment that would have gotten most of us seriously warned I disagree with most. Oh and I lost 17K NS so yeah it was a little bit of a factor for me, but hey life goes on.

[idriveavw]

Yes, tech is now worthless. Your post overlooks the fact that tech is A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE than infra. You can't buy equal amounts of tech and infra, you can buy a lot more infra than you can tech, and increase in strength by buying infra a lot faster than by buying tech. I'm not going to do the math, but surely you can see the general idea?

you're right. tech is way more expensive to buy than infra... if you buy it from yourself. but who does that? no higher level nation buys their own tech. the use of tech deals makes buying tech a much more efficient way of raising your NS, even with the change in value