Athens rides to WAR

[R3nowned]

Just curious, so by fact of the terms by Karma, TOOL wouldn't have been able to defend Menotah if a Karmic alliance wanted to attack them? Seems kind of conflicting, if I'm reading that right. What if TOOL had a legitimate reason to protect an alliance and a Karma alliance wanted to attack their protectorate? Would TOOL have the right to defend their protectorate?

We're still allowed to defend ourselves, and an attack on our protectorate is an attack on us etc.

Sileath, grow a bigger nation so I can declare on you

[Sileath]

We're still allowed to defend ourselves, and an attack on our protectorate is an attack on us etc.

Sileath, grow a bigger nation so I can declare on you

Does TOOL tech raid? I was under the impression that the protectorate has been suspended for 7 days.

If you are going to reinstate the protectorate then do so (and watch me offer peace to my target) but you can't have it both ways - "we're suspending the protectorate with this stupid $@! small alliance who poached then lied to us about it but please don't attack them out of the goodness of your heart."

Either you're protecting them or not, please clarify.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Sileath

[William Blake]

Disappointing TOOL, I hope there was a good reason for this.

edit: great this is a lot longer than I thought, probably missed the good reason

Edited July 18, 2009 by William Blake

[R3nowned]

Disappointing TOOL, I hope there was a good reason for this.

edit: great this is a lot longer than I thought, probably missed the good reason

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1700078

That pretty much sums it up.

[Daikos]

Mabye I'm vastly mis-comprehending the situation here but as far as I can tell Athens wants to roll Menotah (ex-DE members) for not wanting to merge into their alliance and deciding to form their own instead? And TOOL has decided to not protect their protectorate?

Whole thing smells fishy.

[R3nowned]

Mabye I'm vastly mis-comprehending the situation here but as far as I can tell Athens wants to roll Menotah (ex-DE members) for not wanting to merge into their alliance and deciding to form their own instead? And TOOL has decided to not protect their protectorate?

Whole thing smells fishy.

No, please read the thread a bit xD, it's been explained.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Mabye I'm vastly mis-comprehending the situation here but as far as I can tell Athens wants to roll Menotah (ex-DE members) for not wanting to merge into their alliance and deciding to form their own instead? And TOOL has decided to not protect their protectorate?

Whole thing smells fishy.

Like a harbour my friend, like a harbour on a hot summers day.

At least there's peace now I suppose.

[Schattenmann]

but being that is involved maybe a protectorate being attacked, i would see that the surrender terms being void as was it intended to stop TOOL re entering the war in a offensive way rather then stopping them defending protectorates

What is wrong with everyone that they are incapable of understanding the order of aggressive acts of war?

If Athens attacks Menotah bc they don't like the color of their flag, then Athens is the aggressor. If Athens attacks Menotah because Menotah is large-scale recruiting from Athens, then Athens is the defender.

Protectorates are not MADP OoO's. They're exactly what they sound like--a treaty between a 5th-grader and a kindergartener to keep the kindergartener from getting beat up for no reason by other 5th-graders. If the kindergartener goes and starts kicking sand at 5th-graders, then he's on his own. Menotah knowingly and willfully committed an aggressive act of war against Athens.

To address your argument ("rather then stopping them defending protectorates") without metaphors: Menotah declared de facto war on Athens by recruiting from them over and over, any military reaction by Athens is defensive, if TOOL counter-attacked an Athens defense, then TOOL would be in a mutual aggression state with Menotah, not "defending" Menotah.

It's not hard to understand.

For peanut gallery reference, the following things are acts of war even though they don't involve soldiers:

Spying on/infiltrating forums and IRC

In-game spy operations

Recruiting from an alliance

Impersonating gov of another alliance

And many others

If you do any of the above on an alliance-wide scale or as a member of alliance gov, then you've declared war on the alliance you're doing it to. If you suffer military repurcussions, then defensive clauses are null and void because you've initiated aggression. Example: NpO attacking StarcratMazter's alliance when he set his nick to "Electron_Sponge" Example: MCXA pursuing war with TSO for mass-poaching.

The simple fact of the matter is that most people don't understand this 2nd-grade Who Started It? concept, but they can get elected into alliance government where their ignorance becomes policy.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Schattenmann

[R3nowned]

Does TOOL tech raid? I was under the impression that the protectorate has been suspended for 7 days.

If you are going to reinstate the protectorate then do so (and watch me offer peace to my target) but you can't have it both ways - "we're suspending the protectorate with this stupid $@! small alliance who poached then lied to us about it but please don't attack them out of the goodness of your heart."

Either you're protecting them or not, please clarify.

The treaty is suspended, not cancelled. Tech raiding them is highly unappreciated.

Also, tech raiding is allowed in TOOL, but you have to get permission via the proper channels to do so

[Sileath]

The treaty is suspended, not cancelled. Tech raiding them is highly unappreciated.

Then I guess you'll unappreciate me for 7 days. Afterwards though we'll be cool.

[BamaBuc]

What is wrong with everyone that they are incapable of understanding the order of aggressive acts of war?

If Athens attacks Menotah bc they don't like the color of their flag, then Athens is the aggressor. If Athens attacks Menotah because Menotah is large-scale recruiting from Athens, then Athens is the defender.

Protectorates are not MADP OoO's. They're exactly what they sound like--a treaty between a 5th-grader and a kindergartener to keep the kindergartener from getting beat up for no reason by other 5th-graders. If the kindergartener goes and starts kicking sand at 5th-graders, then he's on his own. Menotah knowingly and willfully committed an aggressive act of war against Athens.

To address your argument ("rather then stopping them defending protectorates") without metaphors: Menotah declared de facto war on Athens by recruiting from them over and over, any military reaction by Athens is defensive, if TOOL counter-attacked an Athens defense, then TOOL would be in a mutual aggression state with Menotah, not "defending" Menotah.

It's not hard to understand.

For peanut gallery reference, the following things are acts of war even though they don't involve soldiers:

Spying on/infiltrating forums and IRC

In-game spy operations

Recruiting from an alliance

And many others

If you do any of the above on an alliance-wide scale or as a member of alliance gov, then you've declared war on the alliance you're doing it to. If you suffer military repurcussions, then defensive clauses are null and void because you've initiated aggression.

The simple fact of the matter is that most people are too stupid to understand this 2nd-grade concept, but they can get elected into alliance government where their ignorance becomes policy.

I agree with you, but unless some new evidence has come to light (which is entirely possible), there is no proof of Menotah sending more than one message to Athens. And the guy has already been ZIed for that. Athens made the right call by not pursuing war.

-Bama

[Schattenmann]

Then I guess you'll unappreciate me for 7 days. Afterwards though we'll be cool.

It would be pretty funny if the 7th day of your war is the 8th day after the suspension and you get rocked by TOOL.

[Schattenmann]

I agree with you, but unless some new evidence has come to light (which is entirely possible), there is no proof of Menotah sending more than one message to Athens. And the guy has already been ZIed for that. Athens made the right call by not pursuing war.

-Bama

They and those whom they have recruited from us are free to make their way in the world. Go in peace, and do not mistake this show of mercy for weakness or lack of resolve.

Londo's wording and this gigantic episode indicate that more than one person was recruited. How many actually left may be far less.

[BamaBuc]

Londo's wording and this gigantic episode indicate that more than one person was recruited. How many actually left may be far less.

Well, in the other thread they stated that several ex-DE people left around the time that the one reported message was sent. But there's no proof (again, unless new evidence has come up) that they were recruited in that manner. Menotah claims they were friends of their members.

-Bama

[acrux]

you know this is all because you took DE in right? 90% of them are worthless, 8% of them chase any ball you throw, 2% of them are worth a damn.

I tried to tell you londo.

Athens doesnt seem to mind to be in the spotlight, so bravo there, but such a silly thing over taking in an alliance that was nothing short of a circus. If you didnt expect this to come from it, then be ready for the more disease times it'll bring athens from the DE merge. DE never cut its fat, and you took it all in with the merge.

I still dont mind Athens, but some of what you took in is still on my radar. Take that as you want. You know me Londo.

[rsoxbronco1]

I agree with you, but unless some new evidence has come to light (which is entirely possible), there is no proof of Menotah sending more than one message to Athens. And the guy has already been ZIed for that. Athens made the right call by not pursuing war.

-Bama

As a personal opinion, there's no doubt in my mind that others were recruited. We only had solid proof of one, however. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I don't really know. Doesn't matter at this point.

And before somebody asks, no, we will not be reopening this matter if such evidence eventually comes to light. (double jeopardy ftl)

edit: finished thought

Edited July 18, 2009 by rsoxbronco1

[The Corrupt Teacher]

It's been explained over and over, very clearly, yet some will still find a reason to blame Athens for all this. Athens, the big bad bully!

No just Jgoods that guy is always sooo mean to people

I agree with you, but unless some new evidence has come to light (which is entirely possible), there is no proof of Menotah sending more than one message to Athens. And the guy has already been ZIed for that. Athens made the right call by not pursuing war.

-Bama

I'm sure that made this entire thread worth it. I have secret logs that prove it.

[21:50] Londo: I hope BamaBuc approves this announcement I've been seeking his approval about Athens ever since I've started playing he's my hero.

[21:51] Corrupt[Edlar]: I know he's so important and cool I wish he loved me too.

[BamaBuc]

As a personal opinion, there's no doubt in my mind that others were recruited. We only had solid proof of one, however. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I don't really know. Doesn't matter at this point.

And before somebody asks, no, we will not be reopening this matter if such evidence eventually comes to light. (double jeopardy ftl)

edit: finished thought

Oh, I agree, it looks like others were recruited. I'm just glad there wasn't a war, because nobody wants to find out months later that the alliance they rolled was completely innocent. That's the danger of a CB based primarily on guesswork.

-Bama

[Sileath]

As a personal opinion, there's no doubt in my mind that others were recruited. We only had solid proof of one, however. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I don't really know. Doesn't matter at this point.

This is kind of the reason I'm very disinclined to consider poaching a valid CB. If your alliance was all that and a bag of chips, what worry would you have about your members being drawn away?

If poaching is that serious of a threat to your member count that you're willing to war an entire alliance over it, perhaps you should expound more energy into self-improvement, and less energy into self-indulgent aggrandizement.

[MCRABT]

This is pathetic new world indeed.

[acrux]

As a personal opinion, there's no doubt in my mind that others were recruited. We only had solid proof of one, however. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I don't really know. Doesn't matter at this point.

And before somebody asks, no, we will not be reopening this matter if such evidence eventually comes to light. (double jeopardy ftl)

edit: finished thought

My personal VIEW, i mean really a view on this since I was in the chan when some of this went down. NONE of what I saw was serious, and the athens 'member' set himself up for the opening of a recuirt response.

But, fact is DE vs ex DE hate each other, be it itova, menotah, or any other place DE members went to. The DE that lasted the longest was full of idiots, like i said maybe a handful were worth while.

None the less, I'm sure yuri has me on athens radar

Edited July 18, 2009 by acrux

[rsoxbronco1]

you know this is all because you took DE in right? 90% of them are worthless, 8% of them chase any ball you throw, 2% of them are worth a damn.

I tried to tell you londo.

Athens doesnt seem to mind to be in the spotlight, so bravo there, but such a silly thing over taking in an alliance that was nothing short of a circus. If you didnt expect this to come from it, then be ready for the more disease times it'll bring athens from the DE merge. DE never cut its fat, and you took it all in with the merge.

I still dont mind Athens, but some of what you took in is still on my radar. Take that as you want. You know me Londo.

Refresh my memory...but isn't pretty much all of Itova former DE gov? Just because you couldn't handle your membership and give them direction doesn't mean we can't.

Also, if you applied those same percentages to Athens, I'm totaly in the 8% ball chasing category. Shiny objects ftw.

[Sileath]

My personal VIEW, i mean really a view on this since I was in the chan when some of this went down. NONE of what I saw was serious, and the athens 'member' set himself up for the opening of a recuirt response.

I could squawk about Athens making up a CB, but that might cause TOOL to reactivate their protectorate and that would screw up my tech raiding universe. So, let's get political.

You are wrong! You are interpreting those logs incorrectly, it was vry srs bsns.

[Schattenmann]

Oh, I agree, it looks like others were recruited. I'm just glad there wasn't a war, because nobody wants to find out months later that the alliance they rolled was completely innocent. That's the danger of a CB based primarily on guesswork.

-Bama

ohhhhhh lawdy. Irony ITT. I make my exit.

[acrux]

Refresh my memory...but isn't pretty much all of Itova former DE gov? Just because you couldn't handle your membership and give them direction doesn't mean we can't.

Also, if you applied those same percentages to Athens, I'm totaly in the 8% ball chasing category. Shiny objects ftw.

2 members were gov.. so there is your memory refresher. Seeing as we all didnt leave at the same time either kinda debunks your direction on this.