Poaching from our ranks- NSO

[James Wilson]

Accepting that you have no idea what our intent was by sending those messages (unless you have a spy in our inner forums) you are saying the difference here is not the act of recruitment but the manner it happened? So you are saying it is ok to recruit from other alliances as long as it is done in fun?

RAD never intended to recruit anyone. They did what they did because they are a lulzy group who were having fun in their IRC channel. Saying "O HEY...JOIN US usually isn't seen as serious recruitment where as your official message to TDO members was an attempt to lure them away from their alliance by trying to entice them with war and other things. RAD was having fun, NSO was being serious.

[Voodoo Nova]

funny thing about this is that NSO members keep saying its over. But it clearly isnt because John Warbuck has not accepted your apology yet. And telling TDO to get over it really isnt gonna get this settled any time soon.

If you read John Warbuck's post, you'd see that we have made progress in talks in fully and completely taking care of this to the parties involved liking. It wasn't expected this would not have been slid under the carpet.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Voodoo Nova

[Zangmonkey]

Accepting that you have no idea what our intent was by sending those messages (unless you have a spy in our inner forums) you are saying the difference here is not the act of recruitment but the manner it happened? So you are saying it is ok to recruit from other alliances as long as it is done in fun?

Speculation is permitted.

From my perspective your intention is clear and, in fact, I stated previously that it was very clever.

Your aim here was not simply recruitment. It was a grand style of recruitment for sure because I'll be you get a few members from the publicity you've received in return and that they'll be exactly the sort you want.

Though most of the cyberverse is happy with the wool over their eyes and flexing their imaginary muscles I contend that you are testing the limits so that, when the time comes, you'll know precisely where the limit is.

[New Frontier]

RAD never intended to recruit anyone. They did what they did because they are a lulzy group who were having fun in their IRC channel. Saying "O HEY...JOIN US usually isn't seen as serious recruitment where as your official message to TDO members was an attempt to lure them away from their alliance by trying to entice them with war and other things. RAD was having fun, NSO was being serious.

Shut up you stupid tool.

I'm sorry, but you are not only uninvolved, but anyone from your alliance who calls recruiting aligned nations a bad move must have balls the size of ham hocks.

[Newhotness]

If you read John Warbuck's post, you'd see that we have made progress in talks in fully and completely taking care of this to the parties involved liking. It wasn't expected this would not have been slid under the carpet.

you too bad i wasnt reading the same page as his comment. i posted before i saw what he said

[James Wilson]

Shut up you stupid tool.

I'm sorry, but you are not only uninvolved, but anyone from your alliance who calls recruiting aligned nations a bad move must have balls the size of ham hocks.

A tool? Why don't you make me shut up? Put your money where your mouth is...

I'll say what ever I want. And uninvolved...so are a crap load of other people but I don't see you telling them to shut up.

[kulomascovia]

To be fair, if NSO finds it fun to aggressively recruit and insult neutrals, should we respect that just because it's fun for them? It's a state of interalliance anarchy, and even if you don't want to, you're playing ball. I don't support what NSO did, but as far as I am concerned nobody deserves anything or has any intrinsic rights, neutrals included.

Hmm. Yeah, I guess I could see it that way. As long as you abide by CN rules, you can do whatever you want. It is up to the TDO to do something about it I guess.

However, I still do not believe that NSO's justification was right nor do I believe that this move was a "win" by the NSO; as someone said before me, bullying a neutral alliance is not something that makes an alliance "brave" or "daring".

Again, newbie disclaimer still applies.

[Nojudfoo]

30 pages later and still going strong. So this is what I got:

TDO side:

- NSO poached from their ranks

- TDO is unable to decide if it should act (war) or if it should just complain and do nothing (leaning towards the latter)

NSO side:

- NSO gambled on neutral alliances doing nothing (as apparent by their take over of this thread.. got anything else to do today?)

- NSO is afraid of the neutral menaces by calling on their big brother (NpO) to protect them from any war

- Ivan is trying to make it ok to poach alliance members by refusing a formal apology he wouldn't mean anyway

Rest of CN:

- Slow news day.

Hmm. Interesting. Glad to see CN is back to NPO level-drama.

[Earogema]

Shut up you stupid tool.

I'm sorry, but you are not only uninvolved, but anyone from your alliance who calls recruiting aligned nations a bad move must have balls the size of ham hocks.

So if some Jedi were to attempt to pull some Sith to the better side of the force, you'd be cool with that?

[Merrie Melodies]

So if some Jedi were to attempt to pull some Sith to the better side of the force, you'd be cool with that?

Do you not have some Sith among you brother?

[Seerow]

So if some Jedi were to attempt to pull some Sith to the better side of the force, you'd be cool with that?

I believe Ivan has already explicitly stated in this thread that NSO has no policy against attempting to recruit from its ranks and told everyone who wants to try to have at it.

[Merrie Melodies]

To all you grand standards, will you also be verbally lashing these fellows for alliance poaching? Judging by the standards you are trying to set should we now declare and destroy these guys under the guise of protecting our members?

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...20Insignificant

To: Porky Pig From: zigbigadorlou Date: 7/3/2009 12:04:54 PM

Subject: Ready to unleash your awesome?

Message: Hello fellow Bobite,

I am here to interest you in a dreadfully awesome opportunity. Currently, you reside in an alliance which is selfish, passionate about meaningless things, and are all around bad people. YOU HAVE ALTERNATIVES. I suggest you join the Insignificant.

We have three big things going for us.

1. NO RESPONSIBILITIES. Just don't act like an idiot. You can have as much or as little involvement with us as you want.

2. COMMUNISM. We are the first to be legitimately communism. Its very close to Sileathomics, if you know what that is

3. NO FORUMS. Unlike other alliances, we communicate in game. No need for outside crap. IRC is good though.

4. FUN. Because of the organized freedoms I can offer, fun is GUARENTEED. No need for “passion” or other things. Just lulz based.

Think on it

-zig

[delendum]

The arguments behind this action are weak. By the same logic, I could begin recruiting from NSO simply on the grounds of me thinking it's a !@#$%* alliance (mind you, it's just an example.)

Members of any alliance have the right to not receive this kind of spam - especially one that comes off as insulting. You're not opening anybody's eyes with this, what you're doing is taking advantage of their weak political position which comes with being neutral so you can boast your e-peen around.

"them hippies aren't worth all this talk, they care more about their infra anyway" - why do you try to recruit these kinds of people to begin with then?

[James Wilson]

To all you grand standards, will you also be verbally lashing these fellows for alliance poaching? Judging by the standards you are trying to set should we now declare and destroy these guys under the guise of protecting our members?

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...20Insignificant

To: Porky Pig From: zigbigadorlou Date: 7/3/2009 12:04:54 PM

Subject: Ready to unleash your awesome?

Message: Hello fellow Bobite,

I am here to interest you in a dreadfully awesome opportunity. Currently, you reside in an alliance which is selfish, passionate about meaningless things, and are all around bad people. YOU HAVE ALTERNATIVES. I suggest you join the Insignificant.

We have three big things going for us.

1. NO RESPONSIBILITIES. Just don't act like an idiot. You can have as much or as little involvement with us as you want.

2. COMMUNISM. We are the first to be legitimately communism. Its very close to Sileathomics, if you know what that is

3. NO FORUMS. Unlike other alliances, we communicate in game. No need for outside crap. IRC is good though.

4. FUN. Because of the organized freedoms I can offer, fun is GUARENTEED. No need for “passion” or other things. Just lulz based.

Think on it

-zig

Wow...that was an excellent description of NSO...

[Seerow]

The arguments behind this action are weak. By the same logic, I could begin recruiting from NSO simply on the grounds of me thinking it's a !@#$%* alliance (mind you, it's just an example.)

Members of any alliance have the right to not receive this kind of spam - especially one that comes off as insulting. You're not opening anybody's eyes with this, what you're doing is taking advantage of their weak political position which comes with being neutral so you can boast your e-peen around.

"them hippies aren't worth all this talk, they care more about their infra anyway" - why do you try to recruit these kinds of people to begin with then?

It's clearly for lulz. I have found the situation entertaining, and I am certain many NSO members and many outsiders do as well.

Don't get so serious about it.

[Ivan Moldavi]

30 pages later and still going strong. So this is what I got:

TDO side:

- NSO poached from their ranks

- TDO is unable to decide if it should act (war) or if it should just complain and do nothing (leaning towards the latter)

NSO side:

- NSO gambled on neutral alliances doing nothing (as apparent by their take over of this thread.. got anything else to do today?)

- NSO is afraid of the neutral menaces by calling on their big brother (NpO) to protect them from any war

- Ivan is trying to make it ok to poach alliance members by refusing a formal apology he wouldn't mean anyway

Rest of CN:

- Slow news day.

Hmm. Interesting. Glad to see CN is back to NPO level-drama.

Please point out any statement where I have professed any sort of "fear" or asked another to speak on my behalf.

To me, as it has always been, any PR is good PR.

[OverlordOeboema]

To all you grand standards, will you also be verbally lashing these fellows for alliance poaching? Judging by the standards you are trying to set should we now declare and destroy these guys under the guise of protecting our members?

i thought it was ok to recruit from the NSO?

[Merrie Melodies]

Wow...that was an excellent description of NSO...

Maybe so but you did dog my question, how about taking a stab at answering it. Unless of course you are willing to admit all your verbage in this thread has been empty rhetoric.

[James Wilson]

Maybe so but you did dog my question, how about taking a stab at answering it. Unless of course you are willing to admit all your verbage in this thread has been empty rhetoric.

Shame on them? I don't approve of poaching members at all. Its a dirty move and you need to be a mega !@#$% to do it. I guess thats why NSO has no problem doing it though...

[Zangmonkey]

To me, as it has always been, any PR is good PR.

Are you as surprised as I am that few others have understood this?

It would seem self-evident.

[delendum]

It's clearly for lulz. I have found the situation entertaining, and I am certain many NSO members and many outsiders do as well.

Don't get so serious about it.

It's not lulz if it's not treated as such by both parties. If the same thing would have happened to NSO it would have been the basis for a conflict. Am I the only one to remember people getting butt hurt over somebody presumably recruiting from public IRC channels not too long ago? And that was a lot more obviously "for the lulz" than this is.

Point being that a sanctioned insult towards an alliance, be it lulz or not, is an aggressive action.

[Seerow]

i thought it was ok to recruit from the NSO?

Of course it is, but it is important to note the question was referring to grand standers who have no relationship to TDO who are claiming what the NSO did was wrong.

Recruiting from NSO is explicitly in of itself not a crime. Flaunting the recruiting NSO does while ignoring it from another alliance is hypocrisy. It seems clear to me that he was aiming to get an opinion on if these who feel what the NSO is doing will also state outrage for this (as they have equal say in NSOs policies as they do in TDOs, which is to say none), or if they will show themselves as hypocrites and ignore it while continuing to harp on the NSO.

It's not lulz if it's not treated as such by both parties. If the same thing would have happened to NSO it would have been the basis for a conflict. Am I the only one to remember people getting butt hurt over somebody presumably recruiting from public IRC channels not too long ago? And that was a lot more obviously "for the lulz" than this is.

Point being that a sanctioned insult towards an alliance, be it lulz or not, is an aggressive action.

I for one have no idea what the incident you are referring to from IRC is, as I have been largely innactive recently. I will however say if it was a lulz attempt at recruiting via IRC and led to some sort of conflict, I am as disdainful of that as of any possibility of conflict from this.

The NSO explicitly has no policy to prevent anyone from recruiting from them, Ivan has stated that any alliance is free to do so as they wish. So TDO recruiting from NSO would not have caused a war.

To my knowledge, TDO also has no standing rule in effect to prevent any recruitment from their alliance. They assume that community standards hold true for them and expect nobody will attempt it, however with no policy to indicate otherwise I see no reason why recruitment would be considered an act of aggression.

Moldavi is known to go on frequently about how peace is a lie, and has hopes of bringing roleplaying back to some degree in Cybernations. On Planet Bob Neutrals are a synonym for pacifists (something I do not agree should stand, which I argued in an earlier post), and as such would be directly opposed to the Sith point of view. As such it makes sense that they would try to seduce some of the neutrals to 'the dark side'.

That said, if a war does come of it, it's a war over what is basically an RP of very different points of view. While TDO and those who roll with them might not agree, that is what it would be, and as such a win for the community as a whole. I for one expect to see more of this sort of thing happening in the future, and am prepared to enjoy the entertainment provided by it fully.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Seerow

[jer]

Maybe so but you did dog my question, how about taking a stab at answering it. Unless of course you are willing to admit all your verbage in this thread has been empty rhetoric.

You are awfully mouthy for someone who continually scoffs at the idea of others dishing out 'verbage'.

[Newhotness]

All this arguing and explaining yourselves is away is annoying. TDO just freakin declare war already so this thread can die. Jeez. And if ur not gonna declare war, then stop complaining about NSOs wrongdoings cuz it wont get you anywhere if you choose not to act.

[muffasamini]

Fourth, obviously this is being made into a bigger deal than is really warranted or justified. Poaching implies some form of proprietary position in regards to an alliance's membership. I believe that to be an erroneous assumption. Nations volunteer to join an alliance. Once they join they voluntarily agree to follow certain rules or chains of command but they are never beholden to that alliance beyond their willingness to reside there. If they choose to listen to some rambling commentary via a Private Message sent to their nation then that is their right and they are wholly capable of "jumping ship" at any time they wish.

Those that go on and on about this being an attack on their sovereignty are really reaching.

That is your personal opinion on how to run an alliance. Others may find the attempt to lure members away from an alliance an egregious breach of sovereignty. You do not set the international rule of how an alliance views its membership commitments