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"Vox populi, vox Dei" [...] can not be trusted in science


Bartley
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"Vox populi, vox Dei" [...] can not be trusted in science

Logic should, but doesn't, prevail in the masses

For any philosopher, scientist, or any individual who ever thought a thought, I'd like to invite you to a discussion. The title is an excerpt of this quote:

To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of "Vox pouli, vox Dei," as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science.

-Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, 6th ed.

The concept of the majority being right is often times true: in both nature and human societies, there are many examples where this is true. Then you enter the world of international politics, where chaos reigns free and the legal structure which is built upon the labors of diplomats and lawyers is virtually powerless (take a look at the ICJ). It takes the weight of the most powerful nations to enforce these established concepts of "right" vs. "wrong," and the entire enforcement of sanctions and other "international punishment" is completely their prerogative. More often than not, the ones to be 'punished' just get a stern talking to. Nothing changes. Life continues.

My first topic on these forums drew many responses and opened my eyes to a variety of different views. It turns out that my alliance is viewed as the 'big bad wolf' whose crimes of previous regimes have compounded over a long period of time and festered discontent, jealousy, among many other negative emotions.

The majority of the CN World (henceforth referred to as Planet Bob or PB) has backed up this viewpoint in the latest war against the NPO: with many of its allies deserting her and remaining allies merely fighting token wars prior to pulling out, it seems clear that the world has passed judgment, sentencing, and punishment.

And statistically, we were punished. Hard. Like whoa. etc. etc. So much so, that the remaining power players within the winning faction have already begun to position themselves for the strongest position in Planet Bob.

The masses of players have decided the time has come for NPO, the symbol of the over-dominant oppressors, the puppeteer of the destruction of various alliances, etc. What many who fight have failed to realize is just that: their fight against the NPO is not because the people or government have personally wronged them. Instead it is symbolic revenge each alliance is seeking to comfort them regarding the wrongs of the past. Unfortunately, the players that make up this symbol, who may or may not be to blame, are the ones who pay.

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No one who joined NPO complained when they were given proitection and were top dog on the block. That is the flip side of being in an alliance.

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have...the facts of life.

Sorry you are getting hurt if you are blameless, but not many on any side are that.

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i would have to say good read so NPO really didnt occupy gato for a long time. Or try to send FAN to its demise it was really KARMA who did this?

:psyduck: nice attempt but untill NPO removes the tyrranical regime that ultimately is responsible for this war and many others i am not able to give NPO members respect they may deserve

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i would have to say good read so NPO really didnt occupy gato for a long time. Or try to send FAN to its demise it was really KARMA who did this?

:psyduck: nice attempt but untill NPO removes the tyrranical regime that ultimately is responsible for this war and many others i am not able to give NPO members respect they may deserve

Dont give them respect if they dont deserve it, give it if they do.

You cant just say "Oh, id respect you if it werent for xxx"...Thats not how respect works.

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i would have to say good read so NPO really didnt occupy gato for a long time. Or try to send FAN to its demise it was really KARMA who did this?

:psyduck: nice attempt but untill NPO removes the tyrranical regime that ultimately is responsible for this war and many others i am not able to give NPO members respect they may deserve

He didn't say NPO didn't do bad things, he is saying that many of the nations getting punished now, never personally took part in these things as they post date the atrocities many are punishing.

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i would have to say good read so NPO really didnt occupy gato for a long time. Or try to send FAN to its demise it was really KARMA who did this?

:psyduck: nice attempt but untill NPO removes the tyrranical regime that ultimately is responsible for this war and many others i am not able to give NPO members respect they may deserve

Many Karma alliances did play a large roll in that, yes.

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Your current government is responsible for the vast majority of deeds that have put NPO in the position it is currently in. Many players who had no direct say are being punished but as members of the NPO who have followed the orders of your government all this time you do have responsibility. Without the average member of the NPO to order around the government would not have had the power to commit their misdeeds.

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The masses of players have decided the time has come for NPO, the symbol of the over-dominant oppressors, the puppeteer of the destruction of various alliances, etc. What many who fight have failed to realize is just that: their fight against the NPO is not because the people or government have personally wronged them. Instead it is symbolic revenge each alliance is seeking to comfort them regarding the wrongs of the past. Unfortunately, the players that make up this symbol, who may or may not be to blame, are the ones who pay.

It's very hard to tell what the point your trying to make is. I'm going to do my best and assume it's that this not a war of revenge for actual wrongs committed by the NPO, but war of revenge against the symbol of the NPO as an entity that commits wrongs.

I also assume that this argument is dependent on the truth of the first sentence quoted above. Unfortunately, that sentence is not true, as the NPO is not a symbol of the over-dominant oppressors, the NPO is the over-dominant oppressor (a redundant description, might I add). The symbol of your oppression, if there ever had been one, built on fear and slavish morality, has long been destroyed. It crumbled apart during the months between the NoCB war and the Karma war, and made this war possible.

edit: And I should add, this could be hardly seen as a war of revenge (though many individuals can be said to be fighting for that). Several alliances involved have no reason to seek revenge on the NPO and have in fact benefited from its rule. Other alliances that should have reason for revenge (NpO, GATO, Legion, FAN for example) have stayed out of the conflict. This war can be described as simply a bid for power on one extreme or, on the other extreme, a collective awaking and effort to end the oppression. Obviously it's a little of both.

Edited by Sal Paradise
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First, most people I talk to do have a personal grievance against NPO government. I don't know where the idea that they don't came from. Secondly, those people which others have grievances with derive all their power from those who have allowed them to wield that authority and will continue to empower them for as long as they are around. The only way to eliminate the danger presented by the government is to destroy their powerbase. Those members which do not remove themselves from that powerbase make themselves targets.

It is the primary function of government to represent its people. Every alliance is a democracy by virtue of the ability to vote with your feet. If you continue to cast your vote for someone you feel is running things in a pattern which contradict your values, then you have no one to blame but yourself if those policies result in damage to your nation. Ignorance, while understandable, does not give a free pass when it means continuation of the power of those to whom the ignorant have lent authority.

It is not a perfect system, but ultimately when you reap the benefits of an alliance you must always be prepared to risk the dangers of one, and the policies which your alliance used to further its benefits has resulted in an increase in danger which culminated in this war. While you may be correct in that the membership as a whole is not guilty of pulling any triggers, they are guilty of handing nine hundred loaded guns to people with a history of pulling the trigger.

Edited by Delta1212
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Your current government is responsible for the vast majority of deeds that have put NPO in the position it is currently in. Many players who had no direct say are being punished but as members of the NPO who have followed the orders of your government all this time you do have responsibility. Without the average member of the NPO to order around the government would not have had the power to commit their misdeeds.

Exactly, there are plenty of decent members of the NPO but their leaders got so used to the massive amount of power and influence that they had and it corrupted them. If NPO members do not like this reality then they do not have to vote in favor of their leaders by remaining in NPO. I finally had to remove my own vote of confidence in them.

First, most people I talk to do have a personal grievance against NPO government. I don't know where the idea that they don't came from. Secondly, those people which others have grievances with derive all their power from those who have allowed them to wield that authority and will continue to empower them for as long as they are around. The only way to eliminate the danger presented by the government is to destroy their powerbase. Those members which do not remove themselves from that powerbase make themselves targets.

It is the primary function of government to represent its people. Every alliance is a democracy by virtue of the ability to vote with your feet. If you continue to cast your vote for someone you feel is running things in a pattern which contradict your values, then you have no one to blame but yourself if those policies result in damage to your nation. Ignorance, while understandable, does not give a free pass when it means continuation of the power of those to whom the ignorant have lent authority.

It is not a perfect system, but ultimately when you reap the benefits of an alliance you must always be prepared to risk the dangers of one, and the policies which your alliance used to further its benefits has resulted in an increase in danger which culminated in this war. While you may be correct in that the membership as a whole is not guilty of pulling any triggers, but they are guilty of handing nine hundred loaded guns to people with a history of pulling the trigger.

Hey now, this is not a very nice trio of paragraphs to write about your treaty partner! :P

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Hey now, this is not a very nice trio of paragraphs to write about your treaty partner! :P

Attacking someone your treaty partner would have to defend isn't nice either. :v:

In all seriousness though, I aired my own issues privately well before the war and, while I still actually do like a good portion of NPO government, I'm realistic about what everyone has done including people I consider friends. Pacifica's government isn't under any illusions about how it got where it is and I don't see any reason to pretend things are other than they are.

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Attacking someone your treaty partner would have to defend isn't nice either. :v:

In all seriousness though, I aired my own issues privately well before the war and, while I still actually do like a good portion of NPO government, I'm realistic about what everyone has done including people I consider friends. Pacifica's government isn't under any illusions about how it got where it is and I don't see any reason to pretend things are other than they are.

Oh, you know I just like giving you guys hell about that treaty. You do as you please, that is your sovereign right.

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Actually I like this post. You realize that your alliance messed up and you don't want to pay for its mistakes.

I would advise you to surrender in that case because you're not fighting for your friends anymore. You're just fighting to hold up a symbol of tyranny. Do you need a link to the surrender thread?

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Regarding your last paragraph, the NPO to me is not just a "symbol" for things that have happened in my past. The gvernment of the NPO, with the backing of the people, has personally wronged me, and I'm sure the number of others who can make this claim is far too great.

But you are right in that logic has been missing in CN for years. Since the idea of blocs began, NPO has been taking in allies, using them for military might, then curbstomping that alliance when it got too powerful. In reality, a treaty with NPO was never a measure of safety, but rather a delay to an inevitable betrayal. However, logic failed in that people still fled to the NPO for protection, creating a cycle of fluctuating hegemony. Now, people have come to their senses. Have fun at ZI

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remaining allies merely fighting token wars

My token wars left 1.5 million North Florida dead and 10K infra MIA. :P

/me glares at Don Fernando

/me glares some more at Mushroom Money Man

Edited by HalfEmpty
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That's called collateral damage, champ. But if there was ever a war in the history of CN where one side deserved it almost 100%, it was this one. NPO has done worse, now would be the time to deal with it. As someone earlier said, you have to take both the good and the BAD, one of which NPO is not used to taking.

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Every time a thread promises a philosophical debate I, like a fool, always hope that this time it is for real.

I never liked the Karma war moniker because I think it was fundamentally misleading about the reasons many people felt they were going to war. Nevertheless it does indeed reveal the nature of revolutions: some have very good reasons while others not so much. However, pointing out the limitations and flaws in Karma as an entity (an ad-hoc one) does nothing to validate the NPO. It is a mere diversionary tactic that hasn't been working and yet continues to be practiced daily.

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Those who feel they are not responsible for the NPO's past trangressions have an option. It's called individual surrender and leaving the NPO. You may not have farted in the car but you aren't rolling the window down either.

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