An Open Letter to the NPO

[Cortath]

I wouldn't want to lead people into a war they didn't believe in. If your own people aren't willing to follow you, that's a pretty good indication you're doing something wrong.

No, I'm asking you a question: do you think it's alright for people to abandon an alliance they made a pledge to during war time? Moreover, without informing anyone?

And to answer your question and the speculation, no, we're not targeting deserters.

[Angrator]

I'm pretty sure that GATO have the claim to worst treatment by the NPO, and they've gone on record specifically stating that they don't want to be used as an example. (My suspicion is that's because of the efforts of guys like bakamitai and Cortath, who I doubt you ever met while you were there.)

The thing is, NPO's a large organization, and have been involved in a lot of different situations. Sometimes they've done terrible things. (Sometimes they've done good things, as well. That gets overlooked.) I suspect that if Karma wanted a detailed breakdown of all the sins of Pacifica in the past, with specific apologies, it could probably be done. However the overriding thread on the forums has been the GATO peace mode demand, and so that's what Moo apologized for.

To be honest, I'm not sure an itemized list of sins to be apologized for would be a good precedent though. It would make the victims feel a bit better, but you risk getting into cycle situations, where alliances' ancient pasts are constantly being used against them. Imagine if people wanted to attack MK for "supporting the GOONS OOC attack" because they never apologized for it. It'd be crazy.

Good ahead and tell us the good things that Pacifica has done. I want a refresher.

I bolded a certain part of your argument. Could you have picked a more ridiculous argument? The reason you don't have an itemized list of wrongs for the NPO is because it would make the argument for white peace for the NPO ridiculous.

[Azhrarn]

No, I'm asking you a question: do you think it's alright for people to abandon an alliance they made a pledge to during war time? Moreover, without informing anyone?

And to answer your question and the speculation, no, we're not targeting deserters.

That's an individual decision, in my opinion. Many (most?) alliances won't even tell their members who they're going to war with until it's already too late to leave. I once found myself in the situation where my alliance chose to declare a war that I could not support. I resigned my positions but fought anyway. That was my choice. But if someone had chosen to leave their alliance altogether I would not have faulted them for it. As I said, it's an individual decision that has to be made in light of the unique circumstances.

[Cortath]

That's an individual decision, in my opinion. Many (most?) alliances won't even tell their members who they're going to war with until it's already too late to leave. I once found myself in the situation where my alliance chose to declare a war that I could not support. I resigned my positions but fought anyway. That was my choice. But if someone had chosen to leave their alliance altogether I would not have faulted them for it. As I said, it's an individual decision that has to be made in light of the unique circumstances.

I can agree with much of what you say, except you left out a part. Yes, it's a decision that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. But it's a decision to forsake an agreement made between two parties. What I object to is not the leaving itself, but the unilateral leaving. If you want to leave an alliance, and have a good reason, a mutually agreeable resolution can probably be reached. If you do not bother to even talk to the partner of your oath, you have nothing but my contempt for your decision.

I object to fair-weather patriots who join during peace and leave during war. I defy you to find someone who agrees with such a position. Perhaps if my alliance were some beacon of neutrality, or never, ever went to war or honored treaties, I could see it as reasonable for members to leave during war; they never expected war when they signed.

But you're a fool to join an alliance like mine, or like yours, and not expect war to come some day. And if you run at the first sign of trouble, you should not have joined in the first place, and you won't have my blessing when you leave your shield on the battlefield.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Cortath

[HeinousOne]

Cortath if I was unwilling to change my view of NPO I honestly wouldnt bother to continue to speak about such things. I certainly do not do such to further weaken NPO PR. It is as low as it will go. If I was about taking you guys lower I wouldn't defend your actions that were not out of line when some folks wish to paint them as such simply because you are NPO.

You do not seem to know me like you think you do and neither do most of your leaders.

I Did try to change things while I was in the NPO. No, I did not go about doing the slave work in order to make my opinion gain value within the NPO. That is not the type of work I do. So do not preach to me about not doing anything to change things while I was there as I was constantly bringing up how I felt and how things could be changed up for the better. Look where that got me.

[Lord of Destruction]

Similarly, if you took the time to speak to LoD, as I did, I think you would find that he did not leave the New Pacific Order because of some stifling of free spech/thought/non-baby-eating or whatever it is you think we do that is so evil.

Stop talking sense to people, Cort. Everyone who leaves the Order automatically thinks it's evil.

And to answer your question and the speculation, no, we're not targeting deserters.

That's good to hear. There were plenty of people calling for my head, and it made me wonder if you were going to target deserters like you usually do.

But you're a fool to join an alliance like mine, or like yours, and not expect war to come some day. And if you run at the first sign of trouble, you should not have joined in the first place, and you won't have my blessing when you leave your shield on the battlefield.

I don't believe you're talking about people who left at the first sign of trouble, Cort. Not right now, at least.

[Cortath]

Stop talking sense to people, Cort. Everyone who leaves the Order automatically thinks it's evil.

That's good to hear. There were plenty of people calling for my head, and it made me wonder if you were going to target deserters like you usually do.

I don't believe you're talking about people who left at the first sign of trouble, Cort. Not right now, at least.

I don't think you left at the first sign of trouble, LoD. You've been with us a long time. I think it's very regrettable that you chose, however, to leave during war.

There are many though, who lurk on our forums, do nothing, do not fight, and leave during war. They are fools if we think we have forgotten them.

[Haflinger]

Your sigs have been so throughly discredited its a wonder you bother to keep them there anymore, are you trying to convince us or yourself?

Discredited?

If by "discredited" you mean "completely ignored" then I'm with you.

Or, it could have a beneficial affect, perhaps something in your current position you do not want?

Want an honest take?

Radio silence has had small benefits in specific tactical situations for NPO in the past. However, I believe quite frankly it is much better to maintain a connection between your alliance's membership and the other parts of the community for long-term relationships.

Thus why I removed the only posting ban ever imposed by Invicta government. (It wasn't up for long, and was imposed by a junior member of gov who quite frankly ought to have known better than to meddle in FA, which wasn't his department.) Lord knows we've had the occasional headache due to louts who happened to be members posting stupid things on the forums, but overall I would very much prefer for our members to be able to say what they want when they want, and hopefully the ones who are louts will either leave Invicta or learn to not be louts. (The former seems to be more common.)

Not to me it doesn't, not when you consider the self-serving nature of the timing.

You suffer greatly from the pain of paranoia.

The decision to disband was made in direct response to NPO demands that a Viceroy be installed and that a leading member of the government be expelled. The NPO had no right to make such demands, but they did, and Atlanteans chose to live and fight another day rather than submit to slavery or destruction.

And TPF had absolutely nothing to do with it?

Good ahead and tell us the good things that Pacifica has done. I want a refresher.

To pick one that's relatively recent, they helped stop the VE-ODN war.

To pick another that's kinda famous, they installed the Revenge Doctrine, which used to keep a lot of my friends safe from raiders.

Really, there isn't an eternal villain here on Planet Bob that has never done anyone any good. Even Ephie, the closest thing to a complete villain that I know, helped some people out.

[Azhrarn]

And TPF had absolutely nothing to do with it?

TPF had nothing to do with those demands, but I can't wait for you to tell me I'm wrong, hafwit, err, haflinger.

[Big Z]

To pick one that's relatively recent, they helped stop the VE-ODN war.

Lol what? NPO had nothing to do with that at all nor was that situation ever going to turn into war.

[TypoNinja]

Of course they do.

There is no post we could make that would make those who oppose us happy. No words we could say, no actions we could do, other than "die," to appease many of our opponents.

Actually there are some things you could say, but alas, all of them involve you swallowing your pride, which is why nobody has done it yet.

You could show some spec of understanding of the harm your actions have caused over the years.

You could drop the 'we are better than you' attitude.

You could stop trying to play the wronged party card.

You could stop pushing crap, you are only alienating any possible support you could have. Your bogus stats and PR stunts are directly responsible for making some alliances reconsider the wisdom of giving you peace. Do you grasp the depth of your error? People who used to be in favour of peace have been driven away from that position by the sheer amount of crap you are pushing. All you are doing is convincing people you've learned nothing for this entire ordeal.

I know that there are some good people among our opponents, those who might wish to give us doable terms, but those people are held back by those who wish eternal war, be it in the form of actual war, or terns that would not possibly take because they are not possible.

Spouting crap like this is exactly the point I was going for above. At the start of this we were looking for peace, the worst sentiment from us was wanting to hurt you but a determination not to be dicks about it like you always were.

Now the prevailing attitude is "$%&@ em, if they want to let their pride dig a grave for em, let em." Nobody on Karma's side is going to go to bat for you, no one over here is saying "gee we should be nicer to them", you will not get a last second reprieve.

If you expect an exit from this war, it is your actions and your actions alone that will bring it about. We have no overriding desire to see you wiped out, but we also have no pressing desire to go out of our way to be nice to you, understand this isn't blood lust its apathy.

You can take the terms, or slowly bleed to death under our tanks. We don't give a !@#$. Pick one, but its all on you for which one you pick. No spin, no excuses, you live or die by your own words and deeds.

[kulomascovia]

You could stop pushing crap, you are only alienating any possible support you could have. Your bogus stats and PR stunts are directly responsible for making some alliances reconsider the wisdom of giving you peace. Do you grasp the depth of your error? People who used to be in favour of peace have been driven away from that position by the sheer amount of crap you are pushing. All you are doing is convincing people you've learned nothing for this entire ordeal.

The "peace" that was offered to the NPO would most probably destroy the NPO. So, in essence, the people you claim were in favor of "peace" just wanted to see the NPO destroyed. They never changed their position in the first place.

Spouting crap like this is exactly the point I was going for above. At the start of this we were looking for peace, the worst sentiment from us was wanting to hurt you but a determination not to be dicks about it like you always were.

I don't think I fully understand what you are saying. Are you claiming that karma didn't want to be "dicks" about their victory... so they offered NPO impossible terms that would effectivly stifle any growth within the alliance?

Now the prevailing attitude is "$%&@ em, if they want to let their pride dig a grave for em, let em." Nobody on Karma's side is going to go to bat for you, no one over here is saying "gee we should be nicer to them", you will not get a last second reprieve.

I don't think that anyone from Karma was batting for the NPO in the first place...

We have no overriding desire to see you wiped out

The peace terms indicate otherwise.

Edited July 5, 2009 by kulomascovia

[Waterana]

Actually there are some things you could say, but alas, all of them involve you swallowing your pride, which is why nobody has done it yet.

You could show some spec of understanding of the harm your actions have caused over the years.

You could drop the 'we are better than you' attitude.

You could stop trying to play the wronged party card.

You could stop pushing crap, you are only alienating any possible support you could have. Your bogus stats and PR stunts are directly responsible for making some alliances reconsider the wisdom of giving you peace. Do you grasp the depth of your error? People who used to be in favour of peace have been driven away from that position by the sheer amount of crap you are pushing. All you are doing is convincing people you've learned nothing for this entire ordeal.

You've given us peace? When? All I've seen is offered terms that were only offered so we'd reject them and you could continue to wage eternal war against us. Realised today something important though, will go into that in a bit.

Spouting crap like this is exactly the point I was going for above. At the start of this we were looking for peace, the worst sentiment from us was wanting to hurt you but a determination not to be dicks about it like you always were.

Now the prevailing attitude is "$%&@ em, if they want to let their pride dig a grave for em, let em." Nobody on Karma's side is going to go to bat for you, no one over here is saying "gee we should be nicer to them", you will not get a last second reprieve.

If you expect an exit from this war, it is your actions and your actions alone that will bring it about. We have no overriding desire to see you wiped out, but we also have no pressing desire to go out of our way to be nice to you, understand this isn't blood lust its apathy.

You can take the terms, or slowly bleed to death under our tanks. We don't give a !@#$. Pick one, but its all on you for which one you pick. No spin, no excuses, you live or die by your own words and deeds.

Karma never intended to give us peace right from the word go. The over riding thing I've seen from many of you is fear. Pure fear. Karma is way too afraid we'll rebuild and come looking for payback to ever consider giving us any way out of this. Any of you stating that all we have to do is be humble little penitents, and you might let us live if you're feeling generous enough are spouting rubbish. We know there is no way the alliances fighting us will stop. Fear, fear Fear.

That's ok though. By giving us terms you all knew in advance we'd say no to, you've fallen into the same trap we did with FAN. Another thing Karma keep reminding us of is you've won the war. Yes, we know that and have admitted defeat both officially and unofficially.

You also keep telling us you are in control and we have no say in anything, wrong. By giving us those joke terms, and putting the onus on us to accept or deny them, plus continuing to play the 'benevolent victor' card, you also gave us the drivers seat and the keys. You aren't in control anymore, we are. It is our decisions that will determine how the war plays out from now, not yours. We did the same thing with FAN. For all our bluster against them, with the exception of hitting any of them to come out of peace mode, we had no control over them or that war. They had the power and played out the war to suit themselves. You've done the same with us. Thanks.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Waterana

[TypoNinja]

The "peace" that was offered to the NPO would most probably destroy the NPO. So, in essence, the people you claim were in favor of "peace" just wanted to see the NPO destroyed. They never changed their position in the first place.

I don't think I fully understand what you are saying. Are you claiming that karma didn't want to be "dicks" about their victory... so they offered NPO impossible terms that would effectivly stifle any growth within the alliance?

I don't think that anyone from Karma was batting for the NPO in the first place...

The peace terms indicate otherwise.

Way to prove the point.

This has been gone over so many times, but hey, lets educate some more of the unwashed masses Pacifica has released upon us!

Since all your points touch on peace terms lets go with those.

Peace terms designed to kill your alliance, yes they are oh so harsh. They include all kinds of heinous conditions like;

The expulsion of your government

The rewriting of your charter

Indefinite tribute of an unspecified amount

Wonder decoms

Restrictions on your membership

Taking over your offsite forums and IRC

Taking over your government

Oh wait, my mistake. Those are terms NPO has imposed on others, not the terms we are offering you. Whoops.

Our terms target your stats, but not your community. If you have no community without your stats you have bigger problems than your ignorance and pride.

edit: My points apply equally well for Waterana as well.

Edited July 5, 2009 by TypoNinja

[kulomascovia]

Way to prove the point.

This has been gone over so many times, but hey, lets educate some more of the unwashed masses Pacifica has released upon us!

Since all your points touch on peace terms lets go with those.

Peace terms designed to kill your alliance, yes they are oh so harsh. They include all kinds of heinous conditions like;

The expulsion of your government

The rewriting of your charter

Indefinite tribute of an unspecified amount

Wonder decoms

Restrictions on your membership

Taking over your offsite forums and IRC

Taking over your government

Oh wait, my mistake. Those are terms NPO has imposed on others, not the terms we are offering you. Whoops.

Our terms target your stats, but not your community. If you have no community without your stats you have bigger problems than your ignorance and pride.

I simply countered your arguments which stated that Karma wanted a fair deal to the NPO and that NPO's supposed "PR stunt" is what turned Karma away from "peace". The fact that NPO handed out harsh terms has nothing to do with my argument.

If karma targeted NPO's stats, then inevetably, they are targetting the community. How many nations do you think would be willing to remain in an alliance if they are subject to slow growth and development?

PS: I'm not in the NPO and never was in the NPO.

[TypoNinja]

I simply countered your arguments which stated that Karma wanted a fair deal to the NPO and that NPO's supposed "PR stunt" is what turned Karma away from "peace". The fact that NPO handed out harsh terms has nothing to do with my argument.

It does, we have a baseline for what mean peace terms actually are thanks to NPO's history, their actions and oppressive terms are what created this war in the first place. The terms the NPO has received from Karma are far easier to accomplish and get out from under quickly than most of what the NPO has handed down to others

If karma targeted NPO's stats, then inevetably, they are targetting the community. How many nations do you think would be willing to remain in an alliance if they are subject to slow growth and development?

Short answer: Ask FAN.

Longer answer:

I'm sorry you value your stats more than your friends, However Pacifica has trumpeted loudly and often that their loyalty is to their community and their brothers, and not their infra. We took them at their word that damaged nations would not kill a community, If they'd like to back pedal on that they are welcome too, one more about face wouldn't surprise anybody.

PS: I'm not in the NPO and never was in the NPO.

Sorry, saw the post that read like one more of NPO's mouth pieces, saw the flag, came to the obvious conclusion.

Edited July 5, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Waterana]

Slow growth and development would be fine, in fact a vast improvement on the certain resumption of war the offered terms would result in.

[TypoNinja]

Slow growth and development would be fine, in fact a vast improvement on the certain resumption of war the offered terms would result in.

Err you got that backwards, peace terms result in the END of wars.

[NoFish]

You've given us peace? When? All I've seen is offered terms that were only offered so we'd reject them and you could continue to wage eternal war against us. Realised today something important though, will go into that in a bit.

Karma never intended to give us peace right from the word go. The over riding thing I've seen from many of you is fear. Pure fear. Karma is way too afraid we'll rebuild and come looking for payback to ever consider giving us any way out of this. Any of you stating that all we have to do is be humble little penitents, and you might let us live if you're feeling generous enough are spouting rubbish. We know there is no way the alliances fighting us will stop. Fear, fear Fear.

That's ok though. By giving us terms you all knew in advance we'd say no to, you've fallen into the same trap we did with FAN. Another thing Karma keep reminding us of is you've won the war. Yes, we know that and have admitted defeat both officially and unofficially.

How about this? We drop the two terms that offend you (war time and 1k tech limit on reps) and instead impose a viceroy, kick out your top government, and limit you to 13 nukes indefinitely? Would that make the terms more or less acceptable to you?

You also keep telling us you are in control and we have no say in anything, wrong. By giving us those joke terms, and putting the onus on us to accept or deny them, plus continuing to play the 'benevolent victor' card, you also gave us the drivers seat and the keys. You aren't in control anymore, we are. It is our decisions that will determine how the war plays out from now, not yours. We did the same thing with FAN. For all our bluster against them, with the exception of hitting any of them to come out of peace mode, we had no control over them or that war. They had the power and played out the war to suit themselves. You've done the same with us. Thanks.

Well, then, I think we've found that solution that's equally amiable to both sides. Hell, I can't understand why you'd want to take any terms at all since sitting in peace mode is such a great place for you. Have fun with that.

[Waterana]

Please, with loopholes large enough to drive a semi-trailer through, plus strict restrictions on who can pay reps despite time requirements and beaten down banks, it has been pointed out ad-nausem to you lot that we wouldn't be able to pay the required amount in the required time. Of course, the terms are a farce anyway, so it isn't like it matters. You lot get your eternal war with our without us accepting it.

If Karma truly want an end to this war, and the opportunity to lord it over a subjugated NPO, then it is up to you lot to find a way to do it. Not ours. Like you keep trying to tell us, you're in control, right?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Waterana

[kulomascovia]

It does, we have a baseline for what mean peace terms actually are thanks to NPO's history, their actions and oppressive terms are what created this war in the first place. The terms the NPO has received from Karma are far easier to accomplish and get out from under quickly than most of what the NPO has handed down to others

No, really, it has nothing to do with our argument. You said Karma wanted "peace" and didn't want to destroy the NPO. I said the peace terms indicate otherwise. The fact that NPO handed harsh terms has nothing to do with our argument. If you feel like dragging it in, fine. Lets talk about them. You say that they were cruel and unfair. Well my question is, how are the terms handed down to NPO any better? 2 weeks of full out nuclear war followed by months of paying reps?

Short answer: Ask FAN.

Longer answer:

I'm sorry you value your stats more than your friends, However Pacifica has trumpeted loudly and often that their loyalty is to their community and their brothers, and not their infra. We took them at their word that damaged nations would not kill a community, If they'd like to back pedal on that they are welcome too, one more about face wouldn't surprise anybody.

No need to be sorry. It's not like it's a bad thing. Infra > Friends right?

Anyway, back to the main point. It's kind of a common trend for nations to drop out of a stagnating alliance. It's not something that is confined to the NPO you know. All alliances lose members during war. Why? Because no one likes losing pixels. I'm pretty sure the Karma knew that. And I'm pretty sure that's what they wanted.

In fact, didn't Archon say that "The terms offered are to keep the proposed enemy down, so that the victory can be lasting"

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1558417

[Waterana]

Sorry, double posted somehow.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Waterana

[Waterana]

How about this? We drop the two terms that offend you (war time and 1k tech limit on reps) and instead impose a viceroy, kick out your top government, and limit you to 13 nukes indefinitely? Would that make the terms more or less acceptable to you?

You don't need to. The current false terms have done their job. The eternal war is underway.

Well, then, I think we've found that solution that's equally amiable to both sides. Hell, I can't understand why you'd want to take any terms at all since sitting in peace mode is such a great place for you. Have fun with that.

I've been in peace mode for a whole 10 days the entire war. Sorry, my nation isn't a bank. Good try though. You entirely missed the point of that. Not surprised. So many Karmaites never read past our AA.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Waterana

[NoFish]

I've been in peace mode for a whole 10 days the entire war. Sorry, my nation isn't a bank. Good try though. You entirely missed the point of that. Not surprised though. So many Karmaites never read past our AAs.

Sorry, that was rather poorly worded, huh? I should have said something like: "Sitting in peace mode or knocked down to 1k NS and/or ZI."

You don't need to. The current false terms have done their job. The eternal war is underway.

Wait... So are you saying you won't accept any terms offered now, even if they magically got lighter?

Edited July 5, 2009 by NoFish

[Zombie Glaucon]

You don't need to. The current false terms have done their job. The eternal war is underway.

I've been in peace mode for a whole 10 days the entire war. Sorry, my nation isn't a bank. Good try though. You entirely missed the point of that. Not surprised though. So many Karmaites never read past our AAs.

I can't recall: is it *all* tears that NPO members find delicious, or just those from members of other alliances?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Zombie Glaucon