NPO - A Suggestion

[Lord Valleo]

What Baldr forgot to mention:

Our complete destruction and non-existence is not an option for agreeing to terms.

[Azhrarn]

Oh wait, OV doesnt have a say in how to end the war OV started.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to first win the war before you start rewriting history? OV didn't start this war, you did, by attacking them during the middle of peace negotiations, which is why even some of your closest traditional allies have opted to sit on the sidelines while you get your asses handed to you. You thought it was just business as usual - find the weak link in the treaty web, attack it, drive a wedge between developing allies, and destroy emerging threats before they become strong enough to challenge you. And now you're seeking to blame everyone else for your miscalculations.

And although your concern for the fate of Ordo Verde is touching, I'm sure their future, whatever they choose to make of it, is much brighter now that the NPO doesn't hold Planet Bob in the palm of its hand.

[Azhrarn]

I believe he left the NPO, aided some friends, and started fighting. I'm not positive, but that's my guess.

Regardless, when he *declared* a war, pretending that he's "hiding" is a bunch of nonsense.

You believe? Didn't you even bother to read the post you just quoted? He was an MCXA applicant at the time. Sent out one aid package under that AA (probably a mistake), then switched to the NPO AA, sent out 5 more aid packages, then declared upon a Ragnarok nation. Who gave him the names of the six NPO nations - all at war - which he aided? Who gave him the name of the Ragnarok nation that he declared on? And why would the NPO provide any of this info to someone who's supposedly an MCXA applicant?

No, try again. He's not a ghost. He's not a rogue. He's a freaking bank. How much more obvious do you need to have it spelled out for you? He's a bank who was hiding under another AA, and there's no way in hell he's the only one.

[Lord Valleo]

No, try again. He's not a ghost. He's not a rogue. He's a freaking bank. How much more obvious do you need to have it spelled out for you? He's a bank who was hiding under another AA, and there's no way in hell he's the only one.

With all the talk about how evil and arrogant we are, you can't believe that. We are too proud (again, you may say arrogant) to employ such tactics. Our members are not allowed to ghost the AAs of any alliance, if they are members of the New Pacific Order they fly our AA, if they do otherwise they are banned.

**Edited for Spelling**

Edited June 30, 2009 by Lord Valleo

[raincoat2]

You know what would have happened if OV didn't cede its sovereignty to its allies? They would have apologized for accepting spied information, and maybe sethb would have one round of war.

I think, from the perspective of Ordo Verde, that's quite preferable to the present situation. And you know who agrees with me? Sethb. He apologized and he agreed to go for one round of war in the initial round of negotiations ... but something held him back -- his "allies." And what happens when you cede your sovereignty to people who don't have your best interests at heart?

Well, in this case, it's clear: eternal war. Many of OV's allies don't want peace. They want this war to continue forever, until the New Pacific Order is not and never can be a "threat." I fail to see any situation, save our ceasing to exist, where we can't, somehow, theoretically, in the future, be a "threat." That's the line they parrot, and it's the line that sethb happily accepted, to his and his alliance's doom.

What doom is that? Well, the doom of an eternal war they didn't want. I know they didn't want it, because they were able to go to reasonable steps to avoid it, as were we. But their allies saw an opening. They saw a unique tool, and I certainly don't blame them for grasping the hammer and pounding the nail; I give them credit for their guile, but I have little sympathy for the hammer that put itself in the hands of someone else.

The problem with being a hammer is that you're in someone's fist.

Do you have any evidence that NPO intended this penalty? Based on NPOs past behavior and the logs of the diplomats from the discussion, I find it far more likely the entire alliance would have gotten at least one round of war and Sethb would have gotten at least ZI. I am sure OV felt the same way. NPO has never been known to be a merciful victor, so I doubt they would have suddenly changed their tune and given OV a very light reprimand.

[Lord Valleo]

Do you have any evidence that NPO intended this penalty? Based on NPOs past behavior and the logs of the diplomats from the discussion, I find it far more likely the entire alliance would have gotten at least one round of war and Sethb would have gotten at least ZI. I am sure OV felt the same way. NPO has never been known to be a merciful victor, so I doubt they would have suddenly changed their tune and given OV a very light reprimand.

This really shows how little you know of the NPO.

However, yes there are logs and I believe they were already shared. However of course I am sure this is irrelevant as with enough spin and accusations about how logs can be forged it doesnt make much difference about what really happened.

[Azhrarn]

With all the talk about how evil and arrogant we are, you can't believe that. We are too proud (again, you may say arrogant) to employ such tactics. Our members are not allowed to ghost the AAs of any alliance, if they are members of the New Pacific Order they fly our AA, if they do otherwise they are banned.

**Edited for Spelling**

Sorry, but I'll have to take Doitzel's word over yours (guess you didn't read his post either?).

[Lord Valleo]

Sorry, but I'll have to take Doitzel's word over yours (guess you didn't read his post either?).

rofl, taking Doitzel's word over mine! Pretty much proves what I said about you not knowing much about the NPO.

[Azhrarn]

rofl, taking Doitzel's word over mine! Pretty much proves what I said about you not knowing much about the NPO.

Right. I'll just ignore the evidence of my own eyes, and the logic of my own mind, not to mention the corroboration of Doitzel, and instead go with your empty promise that the NPO doesn't have banks hiding in other AAs (just as I'm sure the NPO doesn't have spies in other AAs either, but that's another thread in an of itself), and your half-baked excuses that he's just a ghost or a rogue, despite the facts that ghosts don't send aid or fight wars, and rogues are usually fleeing from alliances, not to them, and are usually looking out for themselves, not their alliances.

ROFL

Edit. Is this what they teach in the NPO nowadays? Just keep repeating a ridiculous lie long enough and eventually someone will believe it?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Azhrarn

[BikeCat]

You believe? Didn't you even bother to read the post you just quoted? He was an MCXA applicant at the time. Sent out one aid package under that AA (probably a mistake), then switched to the NPO AA, sent out 5 more aid packages, then declared upon a Ragnarok nation. Who gave him the names of the six NPO nations - all at war - which he aided? Who gave him the name of the Ragnarok nation that he declared on? And why would the NPO provide any of this info to someone who's supposedly an MCXA applicant?

No, try again. He's not a ghost. He's not a rogue. He's a freaking bank. How much more obvious do you need to have it spelled out for you? He's a bank who was hiding under another AA, and there's no way in hell he's the only one.

Wait... You're complaining that a peacemode bank nation came out of peace and decided to fight.

I thought that was what we were going for here. lol

Hiding under different AA's doesn't mean squat if you keep proper records and know how to fight a war.

Edited June 30, 2009 by BikeCat

[Azhrarn]

Wait... You're complaining that a peacemode bank nation came out of peace and decided to fight.

I thought that was what we were going for here. lol

Doesn't anyone here bother to read before posting? He wasn't an NPO nation in peace mode. He was a bank hiding under the MCXA applicant AA. Big difference.

The NPO claims that they won't be able to pay off reps or rebuild after two weeks of war, even though that argument has been disproven time and again. My point is that Karma is basing its calculations upon known NPO nations only. What about the other banks that are hidden out there?

[Lord Valleo]

Right. I'll just ignore the evidence of my own eyes, and the logic of my own mind, not to mention the corroboration of Doitzel, and instead go with your empty promise that the NPO doesn't have banks hiding in other AAs (just as I'm sure the NPO doesn't have spies in other AAs either, but that's another thread in an of itself), and your half-baked excuses that he's just a ghost or a rogue, despite the facts that ghosts don't send aid or fight wars, and rogues are usually fleeing from alliances, not to them, and are usually looking out for themselves, not their alliances.

ROFL

Edit. Is this what they teach in the NPO nowadays? Just keep repeating a ridiculous lie long enough and eventually someone will believe it?

When you can actually provide "evidence" that is based on fact and not opinion, then you can move to "corroboration". Until then don't provide opinion and try to dress it up as facts

[Petar the 5th]

Ok, I guess you are missing the point. "Your side" is winning, sure, but will this really guarantee the existance of OV a year from now? IMO, not hardly.

You are right I am missing the point. We can not guarantee our survival. But we are confident in surviving this war.

[BikeCat]

Doesn't anyone here bother to read before posting? He wasn't an NPO nation in peace mode. He was a bank hiding under the MCXA applicant AA. Big difference.

The NPO claims that they won't be able to pay off reps or rebuild after two weeks of war, even though that argument has been disproven time and again. My point is that Karma is basing its calculations upon known NPO nations only. What about the other banks that are hidden out there?

Who cares if he was hiding, plenty of alliances on the losing end of wars have done it. If you were doing your job properly you'd know he was hiding there before he acted. I doubt they're organized enough right now to have some giant hidden bank scheme. And I doubt Karma leadership is foolish enough to not have lists of every NPO nation, regardless of AA.

This is a mute point.

[Azhrarn]

When you can actually provide "evidence" that is based on fact and not opinion, then you can move to "corroboration". Until then don't provide opinion and try to dress it up as facts

Sorry, I wasn't aware that aid transactions and war declarations are opinions. Is that something else they teach you in the NPO? Or maybe we should talk about what they obviously don't teach you, such as simple logic.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why an MCXA applicant would suddenly choose to send out 6 aid packages to NPO nations at war and then declare on a Ragnarok nation. Perhaps I should just keep repeating that question until one of you geniuses can come up with an explanation that isn't dead-on-arrival.

[Ellis]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that aid transactions and war declarations are opinions. Is that something else they teach you in the NPO? Or maybe we should talk about what they obviously don't teach you, such as simple logic.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why an MCXA applicant would suddenly choose to send out 6 aid packages to NPO nations at war and then declare on a Ragnarok nation. Perhaps I should just keep repeating that question until one of you geniuses can come up with an explanation that isn't dead-on-arrival.

Well, I wouldn't claim to be a genius, but what sort of person, might join MXCA? If it was, say MK, you'd have something, but what's to stop them helping their friends in Pacifica, which they'd be more likely to have, being in MXCA.

[Lord Valleo]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that aid transactions and war declarations are opinions. Is that something else they teach you in the NPO? Or maybe we should talk about what they obviously don't teach you, such as simple logic.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why an MCXA applicant would suddenly choose to send out 6 aid packages to NPO nations at war and then declare on a Ragnarok nation. Perhaps I should just keep repeating that question until one of you geniuses can come up with an explanation that isn't dead-on-arrival.

Transactions and war declarations in themselves are not opinions, but saying that the AA and other circumstances surrounding these situations is absolute truth without an attempt of deceit which you draw a conclusion on from your perspective and then try to present as fact is absurd.

As far as the explanation you are looking for, we cannot comment on something that we are not a part of. But hey you can still keep asking the question if you like, I am sure someone will provide an answer that you will appreciate whether it is the truth or not.

[muffasamini]

Right. I'll just ignore the evidence of my own eyes, and the logic of my own mind, not to mention the corroboration of Doitzel, and instead go with your empty promise that the NPO doesn't have banks hiding in other AAs (just as I'm sure the NPO doesn't have spies in other AAs either, but that's another thread in an of itself), and your half-baked excuses that he's just a ghost or a rogue, despite the facts that ghosts don't send aid or fight wars, and rogues are usually fleeing from alliances, not to them, and are usually looking out for themselves, not their alliances.

ROFL

Edit. Is this what they teach in the NPO nowadays? Just keep repeating a ridiculous lie long enough and eventually someone will believe it?

Do you honestly think we have some super secret plan in which we are making exceptions in all our systems that ban people who dont have an AA of NPO? Were just telling our PA "hey, there are these members who are going to change their AA, but dont ban them... um, they arent spies, really.. just dont ask questions" Or maybe were all in on this conspiracy, yet all the members who have left are just tight lipped about it. I dont understand. Doitzel only has the truth on mind, even when the truth helps the NPO, of course. I mean, its ridiculous. Imagine the logistics of what it would take to make that work, and then remember that all those people involved have to be in on the secret, and have no moral qualms and not blab.

So, the Bank Execs have to be in on it, the IO's have to be in on in, all of MI who monitor suspicious aid have to be in, all of the Proterian Guard has to be in on it (as well as all the NPO members have to not notice that their citizen tips on the nation arent going heeded), as well as several FA members who need to cover up any inter-alliance stir, and not mention that they are a current NPO member if asked. In NPO's massive bureaucracy that's what, 20 people? 30? Does that seem possible, that all those people need to be know about some shady secret bank program, and no one found it morally wrong and blabbed? Do you really think that were that shallow. I'm in one of those groups listed and if I found out about something as slimy as that, I would leave the NPO immediately.

And furthermore, what would we stand to gain by secrete banks that we cant from our normal banks? I cant think of anything.

We dont wake up in the morning to think about how evil and despicable we can be today Azhrarn. If you actually used your brain long enough to do more that come up with anything to further your own beliefs, you might realize that everything you hear about the NPO isnt true, and whatever fantasies you can cook up are nothing more than that.

Edited June 30, 2009 by muffasamini

[Azhrarn]

Transactions and war declarations in themselves are not opinions, but saying that the AA and other circumstances surrounding these situations is absolute truth without an attempt of deceit which you draw a conclusion on from your perspective and then try to present as fact is absurd.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, no? But I have yet to hear any explanation, simple or not, which makes more sense than that the nation in question was a bank.

As far as the explanation you are looking for, we cannot comment on something that we are not a part of...

Then what exactly have you been doing all this time? But at any rate, thank you for finally admitting that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[Lord Valleo]

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, no? But I have yet to hear any explanation, simple or not, which makes more sense than that the nation in question was a bank.

Then what exactly have you been doing all this time? But at any rate, thank you for finally admitting that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

No the simplest answer is not always the correct one and to believe so is simply naive.

To say I know nothing about what I talk about is just an indication that you have run out of argument. Simple explanation that you seem to not want to believe is that if they are in the NPO (Bank Nation or not) the fly the New Pacific Order AA.

*Spelling Edit, sorry getting tired*

Edited June 30, 2009 by Lord Valleo

[Azhrarn]

No the simplest answer is not always the correct one and to believe so is simply naive.

To say I know nothing about what I talk about is just an indication that you have run out of argument. Simple explanation that you seem to not want to believe is that in they are in the NPO (Bank Nation or not) the fly the New Pacific Order AA.

*Spelling Edit, sorry getting tired*

So how did a nation go from being an MCXA applicant straight to being a member of the NPO - and during wartime no less? Don't you have an application process anymore?

Edit. And no, I'm not running out of argument as you put it. I'm just tired, like yourself. But at least I have an argument. All you seem to be able to do is issue denials while asking me to trust you based upon nothing more than your word.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Loucifer]

So how did a nation go from being an MCXA applicant straight to being a member of the NPO - and during wartime no less? Don't you have an application process anymore?

In case you missed it, there is an option in the "edit my nation" section that allows you to choose your AA. There are no restrictions on what you can put in there initially.

Just a FYI, this person you are referring to is not masked as a member on our forums and as such is not a member.

Take off your tinfoil hat.

[Azhrarn]

In case you missed it, there is an option in the "edit my nation" section that allows you to choose your AA. There are no restrictions on what you can put in there initially.

Just a FYI, this person you are referring to is not masked as a member on our forums and as such is not a member.

Take off your tinfoil hat.

How long would you like to keep going around like this? You have, by your own admission, "members" who are unwilling to fight despite direct orders from their Emperor. And yet for some reason you don't want to expel said members. On the other hand, you have a "rogue" who has contributed $21 million to your wartorn nations, and has engaged in at least 4 wars himself. But him you haven't made a member.

And I'm supposed to believe this like I was just born yesterday, right?

If I actually believed what you were saying, and I were in your shoes, I'd make that "rogue" a member and demask all those peacemode nations that don't want to fight. But then again, if you were capable of making rational decisions you would never have gotten into this war in the first place, and would have accepted terms when they were first offered. But by all means, continue to make poor decisions and spin unbelievable propaganda. It's amusing as hell.

[Cortath]

How long would you like to keep going around like this? You have, by your own admission, "members" who are unwilling to fight despite direct orders from their Emperor. And yet for some reason you don't want to expel said members. On the other hand, you have a "rogue" who has contributed $21 million to your wartorn nations, and has engaged in at least 4 wars himself. But him you haven't made a member.

And I'm supposed to believe this like I was just born yesterday, right?

If I actually believed what you were saying, and I were in your shoes, I'd make that "rogue" a member and demask all those peacemode nations that don't want to fight. But then again, if you were capable of making rational decisions you would never have gotten into this war in the first place, and would have accepted terms when they were first offered. But by all means, continue to make poor decisions and spin unbelievable propaganda. It's amusing as hell.

Judging from your posts, yes. Unequivocally.

Ahhh, Please link me to the OV DoW.

Can you maybe try and come up with your own argument instead of repeating Cortath's?

Ah, sethb, here we are again. The one-liners. I thought you would take a hint.

When I'm not being a Fascist®, I like to think of myself as a bit of a, oh shall we say, republican. I like to think that I can reach down from my lofty Ivory tower that we Pacificans get (join the NPO for an Ivory Tower on the coast!), and elevate the voice of a someone unheard into the reaches of the heavens. In case you haven't been following, that someone is you.

Here's your chance, sethb: what does Ordo Verde want?

My alliance did not care about Ordo Verde before this war. Again, that's not be to callous, but simply truthful. Our paths never crossed, and I doubt they shall cross again.

I've put my forward my answer: nothing. Ordo Verde ceded its right to want anything, its sovereigntym to its allies, who have pulled it into an eternal war that stunts any amount of growth and/or recruitment, both of which are vital for the success of a small alliance. How do I know this? You were willing to *gasp* try to avoid this war. But your allies will not. Observe (link:

<@sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> I will not see OV come to any harm on my behalf

[23:48] <Impero[VE]> ^and seth will do that

[23:54] <Impero[VE]> nevermind, change of plans

[23:54] <Impero[VE]> im sorry.

[23:55] <Impero[VE]> it would happen anyway

[23:55] <Impero[VE]> our allies would defend seth as a person

Do you want to know what those logs are? It's the fist grasping the hammer. That's what's happening right now there, sethb. Your allies saw a nail, and they saw you, the hammer. There was only one nail, and this was the hammer that was made to hit it. And those logs right there, sethb, that's the fist tightening its grip on the hammer, only to let go when it's all over.

And so, I ask you, sethb, what does Ordo Verde want? Here's your chance to tell the world. No one cared about what you wanted before, and lord knows, no one will care when this is over. We know what your allies want. They've made that very clear. But what do you want? And please, I'd like something more than a pithy one-liner like, "The NPO to be destroyed." "The NPO to not be a threat." I do you and your alliance the courtesy to think that the person who is to represent them in Foreign Operations is capable of articulating its alliances goals in a public manner.

The spotlight is on you, and I look forward to hearing the hammer speak through a clenched fist.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cortath

[Joe Kremlin]

I'd like to see NPO get peace soon just to see how'd they'd fit into this new world. That said, it looks like they're really not doing too badly in this war at the moment compared to some of their opponents. Maybe they could hold out for better terms.