Address from Commanding General

[NoFish]

Given the way MDoAP's were streatched for alliances to attack certain ones this current war, I somehow doubt they would have missed out. Also, given the flood and the way the tide was flowing alliances and NS to Karma, it would have attracted more to the curbstomp/tech raid. That happens more often than not here on PB.

Not that it matters at this point, the amusing thing is how now certain Karma allainces are trying to spin that they switch sides believing they would lose, which is utterly false. At least wait for the war to be done and memorys to fade before re-writing history.

Okay, first off you don't even make sense, grammatically speaking I understand that English is a !@#$%^& language but if you're not a native speaker you should probably have one edit your posts so no one takes offense that was unintended. Secondly, and anyone from Citadel will vouch for this, Umbrella is the only Citadel alliance who would possibly support SF/CNG in an aggressive war. MHA - ask any of them, I'm sure they'd agree with me - would have definitely backed NPO if Gremlins stayed neutral. TOP might not admits to it, given how badly NPO abused their friendship, but they probably would have supported NPO too, in a defensive war.

If you wish to call me a liar please do it directly and quit all your !@#$%footing around. You don't even have the balls to quote me when you're trying to call me out?

Edited June 27, 2009 by NoFish

[Kilkenny]

Okay, first off you don't even make sense, grammatically speaking I understand that English is a !@#$%^& language but if you're not a native speaker you should probably have one edit your posts so no one takes offense that was unintended. Secondly, and anyone from Citadel will vouch for this, Umbrella is the only Citadel alliance who would possibly support SF/CNG in an aggressive war. MHA - ask any of them, I'm sure they'd agree with me - would have definitely backed NPO if Gremlins stayed neutral. TOP might not admits to it, given how badly NPO abused their friendship, but they probably would have supported NPO too, in a defensive war.

If you wish to call me a liar please do it directly and quit all your !@#$%footing around. You don't even have the balls to quote me when you're trying to call me out?

What are you talking about?? I wasn't responding to you before now, but I will if you want. Maybe how things stood back when the war started it might have rolled that wasy, but I never said Karma could attack then and have things work out in their favor. My point was if NPO waited anymore it wouldn't have gotten better. In fact I would wager that by this time, if their had been no war, enough alliances would have sided with Karma, and enough fence sitters off teh fence that it would have been a curbstomp. And their would have been a "Valid CB" accepted by everyone on the Karma side, probably one was already in the works with evidence sitting waiting for the time it was needed. I mean following your logic, all NPO had to do was not attack and they never would have fallen from the top. I am sure Karma would never have accepted anything like that.

And don't worry, If I wanted to call you a liar, I would, directly. As far as you being insulted or offended at my post, don't read it if you don't want to, most of what you post is ignored by me anyway. Whether you want to admit it or not, most of NPO's friends were evidently jsut fair weather friends just waiting for someone to come along to protect them from the big bad evil NPO.

[Un4Gvn1]

Well, if you can't back up your point that "no one cares about broken NAPs" with examples, you don't have much of a point at all. But whatever.

Peggy, did I mention you're awesome?

-Bama

Thank you, Bama.

I am lucky to have gotten to know you more in recent weeks and I'm going to make sure I keep up with you in the future. You are an amazing ruler.

Regarding Mhawks's OP: Best wishes to any former alliamce mates that left.

[Azaghul]

Given the way MDoAP's were streatched for alliances to attack certain ones this current war, I somehow doubt they would have missed out. Also, given the flood and the way the tide was flowing alliances and NS to Karma, it would have attracted more to the curbstomp/tech raid. That happens more often than not here on PB.

The extensive use of oAs was simply for ease of target selection and making assignments once almost everyone had committed. However many of those alliances (Citadel especially) would not have committed in the first place to an aggressive action.

Not that it matters at this point, the amusing thing is how now certain Karma allainces are trying to spin that they switch sides believing they would lose, which is utterly false. At least wait for the war to be done and memorys to fade before re-writing history.

Before TOP and MHA left Q, it was far from certain that NPO wouldn't win if a war happened. A lot of people thought NPO was trying to start a war before that happened to preempt their leaving.

[Azaghul]

Wow. I don't doubt in any way what you are saying, I sincerely don't, but I am surprised that there was even a thought that you were going to be outnumbered. Looking back at the data sets yesterday, we worked through various scenarios, and there was never a situation where we thought we were ahead in just about any category. As I said before, our intelligence guys did a masterful job of identifying who were the key tipping alliances (TOP, ODN, Polar et al.) and trying to assign them to one of three categories by likelyhood (Us, Them, Neutral).

This was before MHA and TOP left Q and were still wild cards, and others like ODN were still wildcards as well.

You underestimate the amount of "raining down in aid" that Vox and FAN required to keep the low level guys at a war footing. That the Vox and FAN low levels were generally experienced warriors going against generally newer nations gave them a pain in the butt advantange.

It would take several hundred million a cycle to justify that being a major drain on your alliance, and I seriously doubt you had that many nations fighting Vox or FAN to take that much aid.

At those levels you only need a small amount of aid to really fight successfully. When I was in GPA a long time ago and small (<1000 infra), I fought a lot of rogues and ghosts. 3 mill was almost going overboard. Granted it wasn't experienced fighters.

The greater drain is that those small nations are spending that time fighting rather than growing.

[OneBallMan]

This was before MHA and TOP left Q and were still wild cards, and others like ODN were still wildcards as well.

It would take several hundred million a cycle to justify that being a major drain on your alliance, and I seriously doubt you had that many nations fighting Vox or FAN to take that much aid.

I think that is totally correct, but the difference is that our guys never had MHA, ODN and Sparta on our side or even leaning, and TOP was a highly probable to flip. Again, to our point in this thread, TPF never thought we were going to be on the winning side. I really appreciate your open and honest discourse on this. Others who claim that we are not telling the truth simply haven't done the same math.

At those levels you only need a small amount of aid to really fight successfully. When I was in GPA a long time ago and small (<1000 infra), I fought a lot of rogues and ghosts. 3 mill was almost going overboard. Granted it wasn't experienced fighters.

The greater drain is that those small nations are spending that time fighting rather than growing.

They were an extremely pesky bunch. I can only speak to our experience, but it was a PITA.

[KinKiac]

Given the way MDoAP's were streatched for alliances to attack certain ones this current war, I somehow doubt they would have missed out. Also, given the flood and the way the tide was flowing alliances and NS to Karma, it would have attracted more to the curbstomp/tech raid. That happens more often than not here on PB.

Not that it matters at this point, the amusing thing is how now certain Karma allainces are trying to spin that they switch sides believing they would lose, which is utterly false. At least wait for the war to be done and memorys to fade before re-writing history.

Just in case anyone missed it, I do not speak for my alliance. I am not Gov, I never have been, nor am I planning on such in the future. I speak for myself and only myself.

What are you talking about?? I wasn't responding to you before now, but I will if you want. Maybe how things stood back when the war started it might have rolled that wasy, but I never said Karma could attack then and have things work out in their favor. My point was if NPO waited anymore it wouldn't have gotten better. In fact I would wager that by this time, if their had been no war, enough alliances would have sided with Karma, and enough fence sitters off teh fence that it would have been a curbstomp. And their would have been a "Valid CB" accepted by everyone on the Karma side, probably one was already in the works with evidence sitting waiting for the time it was needed. I mean following your logic, all NPO had to do was not attack and they never would have fallen from the top. I am sure Karma would never have accepted anything like that.

And don't worry, If I wanted to call you a liar, I would, directly. As far as you being insulted or offended at my post, don't read it if you don't want to, most of what you post is ignored by me anyway. Whether you want to admit it or not, most of NPO's friends were evidently jsut fair weather friends just waiting for someone to come along to protect them from the big bad evil NPO.

Ummm, regarding the bolded part, I think you did. Actually, I think thats what you've been arguing all along. Some examples maybe:

Well fact is even if NPO hadn't declared on OV, by this time Karma would have most likely had the numbers to Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them. So it was a matter of waiting around for the curbstomp, or go ahead and kick it off (although there were better reasons than the one chosen) and take a chance that the Mighty Admin would bless us adn we could at least reach a draw.

I wonder though, are you really niave enough to believe that any war against NPO would have been bad PR for anyone?? I mean, all the "evil" stuff people keep bringing up about NPO and the justification for the harsh terms for NPO seem to lend to credible CB anyway. Besides, NPO showed that any CB works if your side is bigger, and anything can be overlooked if you are on the winning side. So why wait until a curbstomp happens and you get jumped?? Better to control what you can when you can.

Maybe my reading comprehension is a little off, but reading those 2 posts, you seem to be saying that if NPO didnt start the war by "kicking it off" by attacking OV, that Karma forces would have attacked eventually and as you put it "Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them". You cant respond to someone else and think that other wont call you on it. What I have been arguing with you about is why NPO would have attacked OV, knowing that they would lose(according to intel from TPF) when they could have sat back and waited for what you guys are saying was inevitable, which is Karma forces DOW'ing NPO, with a CB based off the same justification as the harsh terms being offered at this point.

Now, in this past post you try to say that it wouldnt have worked out so well for Karma if they had attacked NPO? Then in the same post you contradict yourself saying that if NPO hadnt started the war with OV(or any other war for that matter) that Karma would have had enough support that just about any CB would have sufficed, and Karma would have attacked NPO, and therefore NPO(and TPF since you guys share intel and Im assuming work together on these things) decided to kick it off themselves by declaring during negotiations, not posting a DOW until after the fact, and pretty much alienating any fence sitters that might have helped them out if it wasnt for said actions. MHA would have likely supported NPO, even as it turned out they defended their allies but stated they "did not" support Karma. As has been stated by others Citadel would have sat this one out. Im sure there are others too. And, if you guys waited a while longer maybe MCXA would have had a chance to save up a warchest and helped out a lot more than they did. Seems like you guys just used them as meatshields, and I feel sorry for them in that respect and only hope they can see this themselves.

You guys keep saying how great your analysts were at predicting things, but if you are serious that TPF and NPO thought they would somehow be avoiding a bigger loss than if they waited for what you say was inevitable, then your analysts really dropped the ball then didnt they. They may have been good at predicting how things would work out under static conditions but they really arent that good when thrown a few variables are they? A war may have been coming but it could have been much less painful for NPO and much more so for Karma.

I know Im dragging this on and on but I just fail to believe that this is the best military strategy that you and NPO could muster. Why cant you guys just admit you made a mistake in deciding to attack OV. (Im saying "you guys" assuming that TPF and NPO were working together on this)

[Kilkenny]

Just in case anyone missed it, I do not speak for my alliance. I am not Gov, I never have been, nor am I planning on such in the future. I speak for myself and only myself.

Ummm, regarding the bolded part, I think you did. Actually, I think thats what you've been arguing all along. Some examples maybe:

Maybe my reading comprehension is a little off, but reading those 2 posts, you seem to be saying that if NPO didnt start the war by "kicking it off" by attacking OV, that Karma forces would have attacked eventually and as you put it "Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them". You cant respond to someone else and think that other wont call you on it. What I have been arguing with you about is why NPO would have attacked OV, knowing that they would lose(according to intel from TPF) when they could have sat back and waited for what you guys are saying was inevitable, which is Karma forces DOW'ing NPO, with a CB based off the same justification as the harsh terms being offered at this point.

Now, in this past post you try to say that it wouldnt have worked out so well for Karma if they had attacked NPO? Then in the same post you contradict yourself saying that if NPO hadnt started the war with OV(or any other war for that matter) that Karma would have had enough support that just about any CB would have sufficed, and Karma would have attacked NPO, and therefore NPO(and TPF since you guys share intel and Im assuming work together on these things) decided to kick it off themselves by declaring during negotiations, not posting a DOW until after the fact, and pretty much alienating any fence sitters that might have helped them out if it wasnt for said actions. MHA would have likely supported NPO, even as it turned out they defended their allies but stated they "did not" support Karma. As has been stated by others Citadel would have sat this one out. Im sure there are others too. And, if you guys waited a while longer maybe MCXA would have had a chance to save up a warchest and helped out a lot more than they did. Seems like you guys just used them as meatshields, and I feel sorry for them in that respect and only hope they can see this themselves.

You guys keep saying how great your analysts were at predicting things, but if you are serious that TPF and NPO thought they would somehow be avoiding a bigger loss than if they waited for what you say was inevitable, then your analysts really dropped the ball then didnt they. They may have been good at predicting how things would work out under static conditions but they really arent that good when thrown a few variables are they? A war may have been coming but it could have been much less painful for NPO and much more so for Karma.

I know Im dragging this on and on but I just fail to believe that this is the best military strategy that you and NPO could muster. Why cant you guys just admit you made a mistake in deciding to attack OV. (Im saying "you guys" assuming that TPF and NPO were working together on this)

Yes you have been reading it wrong. Again, while Karam ,might not have been able to attack when NPO did and achieve these results, BY THIS TIME ( ie: 2months later) They would have. Go back and look at the steady fllod of Cancelations of Treaties to those on NPO's side of things, and look at the treaties aligning with Karma. Go back a read the vitriol and hatred for NPO and others and it's growing volume. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which way the tide is flowing. While there were some major switches right before the war kicked of, some of them, Like Sparta, were heading that way anyway, it was just made official right before the war started. As far as MCXA goes, everyone was told of the pending war. Why they didn't do more to prepare idk, but they also had their share of troubles in the months leading up to it which could likely have caused issues in preparing. IDK, and not going to speculate there.

As far as the way it was handled at the start, well I somehow doubt you have all the info handy on that one, but go back and re-read a lot of the comments about some of it and you might get an idea there is more than meets the eye, but then again....

[R&R-Viking]

Everyone should have been aware that war was going to be happening. It was communicated to all allies, and if they failed to act on the warnings, can't help that. the situation wouldn't be totally controled, but could control some of their destiny. Also, maybe I was wrong about you being naive, I am now thinking it is a matter of you and others thinking I and us are naive enough to buy your numbers or belief that NPO couldn't have been jumped with a half way legit CB and everyone come running to their aid. At worse case you would have had Gramlins and a maybe a couple of others sit the fence. But that in no way helps NPO out. Not doubting that a lot of alliances heart wasn't in the battle though and that prob effected things quite a bit.

Also, I do know the difference between RL and PB, and the same goes here. NPO was in such a position that no amount of talking was helping. There was a steady stream of allainces joining up with Karma/remaining neutral. more time would not have meant more NS on NPO's side, wold have meant more of a curbstomp than it already was. The hatred for NPO that has surfaced on PB here in the last 2 months is thick enough to walk across from one end of the world to the other. That hatred would have been enough to polish up any CB to be acceptable to the masses. Heck the CB prob could have been "We HATE NPO!!" and it would have worked for most.

and I am glad 120m NS vs 170m NS is considered close!!! a 42% advantage!!! LOL if that wasn't enough to seal a victory for yall, then you deserved to get crushed.

You're missing the point, and that point is the vast majority of Planet Bob did not, and does not like NPO. Whether you are correct, or the people arguing you are correct, that does not matter. In both scenarios the NPO is the most hated alliance in the game, meaning the NPO lost the war politically.

See how that works?

e- and yes I see you talk about NPO hate in your posts but I don't think you are grasping the concept that thousands of opinions generally outweigh 700. Even if "Karma" is a bloodthirsty group just itching for a fight, it is NPO and NPO alone that fomented the rage, with little to no concern about it while it was doing so. Let them eat cake and such.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Viking

[Lycurgus Rex]

Im waiting on TPF making the next in their series of honour topics..any day now,,,

[Aquilos]

I believe there have been three of what you call honor topics in two months. Each was made when things going on with TPF were questioned. Not our fault that the answer to each question was the same.

[Chickenzilla]

and I am glad 120m NS vs 170m NS is considered close!!! a 42% advantage!!! LOL if that wasn't enough to seal a victory for yall, then you deserved to get crushed.

I'm glad that you're now the shining example of fighting the fair fight.

[Glen MoP]

The NPO deserves every bit of said hate. I have no pity for them. However the rest of you guys still in the war on their side, you have my respect. For what that is worth.

The people all full of hate need to take a step away and relax. Maybe take a nice hot bath and have a cup of tea. I mean, seriously, hate?

[maxnmike]

The people all full of hate need to take a step away and relax. Maybe take a nice hot bath and have a cup of tea. I mean, seriously, hate?

I don't hate you, I simply have no pity for you. You are reaping what you have sown for the past few years. Enjoy the harvest.

[Taishaku]

Back on the topic of reparations...

When will some fair surrender terms be issued? I mean, the NPO has indeed acknowledged defeat (SO THERE WILL BE NO DEBATE IN THE FUTURE!). The only thing keeping them from surrendering is the absurd demands being levied upon them. If people think the reparations that have been publicly discussed are by any means "fair," it seems that there will be no end to this war unless NPO disbands or is reduced entirely into atomic rubble.

I mean, I personally am no great fan of the NPO, but I feel they should be given a fair shake. At least something that has a possibility of being paid off within a decade so as to not be resolved by another global war. I refer to the RL example of Germany in the post-World War I era.

[mhawk]

Contrary to your determined efforts, your alliance does not get a clean slate when you change leaders. Seeing as you have never granted any other alliance such a concession I find it amusing you demand it for your alliance.

I find it amusing it is unlikely you can name a single war where I hit someone for the reasoning you give above, yet you continue to drone on and on about how I surely am hypocritical over expecting my own actions to be judged, as opposed to a mixture of rumors and some thing that happened a year or more before I joined.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I find it amusing it is unlikely you can name a single war where I hit someone for the reasoning you give above, yet you continue to drone on and on about how I surely am hypocritical over expecting my own actions to be judged, as opposed to a mixture of rumors and some thing that happened a year or more before I joined.

I believe that it's not your actions, but your lack of them that put you in this position

[Geoffron X]

I believe that it's not your actions, but your lack of them that put you in this position

His lack of betraying us? Yes. He did not commit those actions at all.

[BlkAK47_002]

LOL @ failtallion

So, certain people who display the desire to be in an alliance that honors their word and values their friendships over their infrastructure will be naturally drawn to TPF? Sounds like cause and effect.

I suppose certain people who support cowardly exits from wars without notifying other government as per charter law, and support coup attempts by whiny little brats who are mad when they are called out on their dishonor might gravitate to your alliance. Cause and effect again.

Canasta.

Dare I say check And Mate?

[WarriorConcept]

I find it amusing it is unlikely you can name a single war where I hit someone for the reasoning you give above, yet you continue to drone on and on about how I surely am hypocritical over expecting my own actions to be judged, as opposed to a mixture of rumors and some thing that happened a year or more before I joined.

I'm sure his argument is still more towards your alliance, stop trying to play the martyr please.

[mhawk]

I'm sure his argument is still more towards your alliance, stop trying to play the martyr please.

As the sole deciding voice in my alliance, my word is our alliance's. If by martyr, you mean someone who will be persecuted ad infinitum for "crimes" he had no part in, and some that occurred before my very existence, with no possible means of standing and being judged on my own actions, then yes I guess I am.

Now act like the big tough been there done that guy and tell me to suck it up.

Now we can both continue on doing what we're doing, but you can feel macho now.

[astronaut jones]

I'm glad that you're now the shining example of fighting the fair fight.

It's kilkenny.. do I really have to say any more?

[iamthey]

It's true, they don't.

mhawk, if anything, tries to make himself look like a really nice and honest guy, someone who has so-called "honor". He's anything but honorable, and he is fully aware that after TPF is out of this war they will receive a flurry of treaty offers from many alliances and TPF will be known as one of the most "honorable" alliances on CN. Furthermore, it should be noted that TPF will have a massive increase in the number of nations joining them to be part of this "honorable" alliance.

Those of us who use logic can see right through these despicable acts of pathetic political maneuvers which are clearly nothing more than a failed attempt at a good PR.

Check, and mate.

Lol, so its only honorable when you agree with the person doing it? Just because people in your screwed up little world do everything for PR, and political motivations doesn't mean everyone does. Sure, you may be right they may in the end get something out of this, but why does that change the fact that they are keeping their pledge to be the last people of the field. Who are you to judge their intentions or know their own personal motivations?

Declared on by who, exactly? Citadel would never have supported an aggressive action against the NPO while TOP and MHA would have both defended NPO from an attack. Wanna run those numbers and see how things look?

Indeed. Even in this aggressive war by pacifica; the numbers were not that bad (in fact some people in karma thought that it might be a loss for them). But once all the fence alliances started siding after the "declared in diplomacy" and a number of other things got played up it turned into a curb stomp. I can imagine any aggressive war by SF or whoever the presumed aggressor would be would have ended pretty badly for them.

I'm talking about your alliance as you are well aware. To see that it has changed I need to see evidence it has rather than rhetoric. Contrary to your determined efforts, your alliance does not get a clean slate when you change leaders. Seeing as you have never granted any other alliance such a concession I find it amusing you demand it for your alliance.

Why doesn't the alliance get a clean slate when it changes leaders? Thats like blaming a hammer for a murder. It doesn't matter what the hammer was used for, all that matters is who used the hammer.

Edited July 1, 2009 by iamthey

[Ellis]

Why doesn't the alliance get a clean slate when it changes leaders? Thats like blaming a hammer for a murder. It doesn't matter what the hammer was used for, all that matters is who used the hammer.

I'm not sure how your anology works, but I agree to a certain extent, while it's unrealistic to think that an alliance will get a totally clean sheet, the alliance shouldn't be blamed for specific things that happened while the old gov was in place, which isn't what Tyga was doing there, but others have done it.

[R&R-Viking]

As the sole deciding voice in my alliance, my word is our alliance's. If by martyr, you mean someone who will be persecuted ad infinitum for "crimes" he had no part in, and some that occurred before my very existence, with no possible means of standing and being judged on my own actions, then yes I guess I am.

Now act like the big tough been there done that guy and tell me to suck it up.

Now we can both continue on doing what we're doing, but you can feel macho now.

Suck it up, martyr.