Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Bilrow]

Nations which are in PM because they weren't staggered right clearly can come into war mode, since they did already. So that's 67+26 = 93% who are either at war or who have been at war (and are therefore capable of doing so again if asked by your milcom). Which invalidates the argument that getting over 90% is impossible. Quoting your own posts doesn't suddenly make the truth conform to them, particularly when you're simultaneously arguing the exact opposite in the next post.

Considering over half my post was direct quotes of NPO posters, you need to explain how that isn't just a poor attempt to smear me.

Actually it would be 66.81+6.5 = 73.36%, since the goal of the 90% is to get those 6.5% of Bank Nations out for Karma to hit on if and when Terms are agreed upon. And again, it's not my place to argue what is impossible for getting people out of peace mode when terms are accepted, I can only speak of the here and now of the current snapshot of the war front. I have no desire to do the hypothetical future guessing on what percentage of those 26.552 that would come straight out of peace mode when/if peace terms are given and how long that would take that it would extend the 14 day of beating our bank nations take because they do not all move out as quickly to hit some magical 90% number. I just focus on the black and white of right now.

Considering that you are just twisting my words around in a pointless way to say something I am not intending, you need to explain how that isn't just a poor attempt to smear me.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Bilrow

[ChairmanHal]

how do you people have this much time to just make posts about NPO, do you guys just wake up in the morning and say im gonna make a bloc of NPO hate filled posts.

im waiting for the mod to lock.

Let's go back to my Kentucky roots a bit...

They can't figure out how to get the wildcat from under the porch. So they are questioning its manhood, cajoling it, doing math problems (while they lean on their baseball bats and shotguns) to show the wildcat it'll live if it comes out from under the porch. All the wildcat knows is that it's hurt, it's hungry, and it will rip up anything that comes under the porch after it.

So we get threads like this one. I may have even commented on the OP but its been so long ago I forgot what I said.

NPO will do what suits NPO. This was a group that long ago more than one person commented was a bunch of "brain washed drones led by a group of elitists". Some of these same people are now in shock that NPO is being so stubborn. Are you in shock because you were right, or because you thought your words were bovine scatology and that NPO was actually a group of right thinking people?

I'm sorry, this is reaching the point of humor, however dark.

[Bilrow]

Let's go back to my Kentucky roots a bit...

They can't figure out how to get the wildcat from under the porch. So they are questioning its manhood, cajoling it, doing math problems (while they lean on their baseball bats and shotguns) to show the wildcat it'll live if it comes out from under the porch. All the wildcat knows is that it's hurt, it's hungry, and it will rip up anything that comes under the porch after it.

So we get threads like this one. I may have even commented on the OP but its been so long ago I forgot what I said.

NPO will do what suits NPO. This was a group that long ago more than one person commented was a bunch of "brain washed drones led by a group of elitists". Some of these same people are now in shock that NPO is being so stubborn. Are you in shock because you were right, or because you thought your words were bovine scatology and that NPO was actually a group of right thinking people?

I'm sorry, this is reaching the point of humor, however dark.

The wildcat hungers?

[Bob Janova]

since the goal of the 90% is to get those 6.5% of Bank Nations out for Karma to hit on

And JD talks about me putting words into people's mouths! The fact is, if you can comply with the 90% without needing to get your 'banks' (welcome to 2009, by the way, where banking is irrelevant; what you mean is 'high tier threat') out, then that is better for you since you can get peace and maintain a threat. There is no statement of a goal in the terms.

And again, it's not my place to argue what is impossible for getting people out of peace mode when terms are accepted

Then stop arguing about it. You've already provided the facts to show that well over 90% of your nations are either in war mode now or active enough to engage in the war, so you don't really have an argument any more anyway.

There's always a first time for everything.

Okay, so you're saying I have an immaculate record, but you don't trust me anyway. Well, you know, fine, keep your prejudice, but I hope you see that doesn't make any sense.

For someone not at war with us you guys sure have a lot of fingers in the various pies of orchestration/aiding/intel.

Aiding? I've not sent aid to anyone on the NPO front as far as I know (although I did do a tech deal with a Spartan, maybe that's what you're looking at?). I haven't really been involved with Karma since Grämlins left the war, except for taking a few questions about PoWs, who are tracked on a system I administrate. When we were at war, my efforts were concentrated on the IRON front. And I've never been involved in intel, unless you just mean aid and war tracking, in which case I do that for major alliances whether in war or not.

So, once again, your ad hominem is inaccurate.

OOC edit for Hal: It's a game. Debating is fun. It's a long time since the political climate in CN has allowed for an open and free debate.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Bilrow]

Then stop arguing about it. You've already provided the facts to show that well over 90% of your nations are either in war mode now or active enough to engage in the war, so you don't really have an argument any more anyway.

Again, nice twist. I never said they were active enough to engage in the war. I said:

Of the 80% of nations that are cycling in and out of war the most of them have been in over 20 wars with some being as many as 25 wars (this previously was 43 wars but that nation is back out fighting again since my last report).

I would not venture to guess of those 80% who aren't currently in peace mode due to situations (OOC: vacations, etc). I was dispelling the argument that those hiding in peace mode had not fought in this war at all when that is contrary and far from the truth. That is all. Repeat after me:

All Bilrow was dispelling was the argument that the majority of those in peace mode were hiding and had not fought any wars.

Now repeat that 100 times till it sinks in.

For a Full Analysis of the Requirement of 90% to be out of Peace Mode I direct you this post.

[Bob Janova]

Haha, now you're linking to posts which contradict you directly!

Thus, we found 70-90 so-called "peace mode violators" who refused to leave peace mode despite repeated orders to fight.

the others (which are less than the number of 6) are being handled and told to come out and fight.

So either you have been lying through this entire thread, or the posts in the thread that you linked to were lying for the main point of their 'analysis' and are therefore invalid.

All Bilrow was dispelling was the argument that the majority of those in peace mode were hiding and had not fought any wars.

No-one was arguing that in the first place that I saw. I did an analysis on this a while back and around half of your top 50 had hidden through the whole war. However, if nations have been able to come out and fight once, they are able to do so again, if ordered and if the situation is hopeful (which complying with the peace terms would be).

[ChairmanHal]

The wildcat hungers?

You certainly aren't going down without a fight. Far from simply retreating into a corner, a quick check of the stats of the alliances that have been involved in the heaviest action against NPO shows that. Ragnarok for example disappeared from sanction status while no one was looking.

You still find yourself in a fine mess...I don't envy your position.

[Delta1212]

You guys have 18 alliances fighting against you or some crazy high number like that. What did you expect?

Just to add a little personal commentary of my own, I find it extremely delicious to see NPO members and Bob Janova going at each other so harshly. Considering me making one single comment towards him when I said he was showing an anti-npo tilt was one of two statements that got me silenced by the NPO.

I hate to say I told you so.....

Now, if only Delta would show up and throw a few barrages at them, it would be complete.

I remember that.

[Vilien]

I remember that.

It's like the lead-up to this war all over again.

[Glen MoP]

(welcome to 2009, by the way, where banking is irrelevant; what you mean is 'high tier threat')

I'm not entirely sure you're taking changing conditions into account. "Bank" nations may be obsolete in an alliance with an average NS of 25k and an average infra of almost 5k (Hi, Polaris!) but in an alliance with an average infra of just over 1k, and where 536 nations have LESS THAN 1k infra, bank nations are important. People continually bring up about our billion dollar war chests. There is one critical flaw in this argument: we've just fought two months of nuclear war. Not everyone started with a billion dollar warchest in the first place, and two months of nuclear war, especially when you're fighting 3:1 or 4:1 and eating a nuke every day, can easily burn through even a billion dollar war chest even without extravagant spending. I did.

The rest of you may be enjoying the massively inflated nation strengths of 2009 with your billion dollar warchests. We are not. We're somewhere back in 2007, where $3M is a crapton of money and can keep you out of bill lock for weeks.

I'm also not seeing how the NPO is going to bounce back in a year, much less suddenly. YEARS of NS have been destroyed. I lost two years of growth. Therefore, it seems reasonable that it will take me somewhere around two years to recover. During that time everyone else will have had two MORE years to grow.

(OOC)It is illuminating of a reason so few new nations stay around, though. There is pretty much zero chance of growing enough to compete with the top nations. Really, there's little chance of competing with the middle nations if you start fresh now. The game needs to (like so many other online games that have gotten top-heavy) make the game much easier/faster for new nations. This might also encourage some people who played and left to return. Either way, more players is better. (/OOC)

Edited June 23, 2009 by Glen MoP

[KingSuck]

I'm not entirely sure you're taking changing conditions into account. "Bank" nations may be obsolete in an alliance with an average NS of 25k and an average infra of almost 5k (Hi, Polaris!) but in an alliance with an average infra of just over 1k, and where 536 nations have LESS THAN 1k infra, bank nations are important. People continually bring up about our billion dollar war chests. There is one critical flaw in this argument: we've just fought two months of nuclear war. Not everyone started with a billion dollar warchest in the first place, and two months of nuclear war, especially when you're fighting 3:1 or 4:1 and eating a nuke every day, can easily burn through even a billion dollar war chest even without extravagant spending. I did.

The rest of you may be enjoying the massively inflated nation strengths of 2009 with your billion dollar warchests. We are not. We're somewhere back in 2007, where $3M is a crapton of money and can keep you out of bill lock for weeks.

I'm also not seeing how the NPO is going to bounce back in a year, much less suddenly. YEARS of NS have been destroyed. I lost two years of growth. Therefore, it seems reasonable that it will take me somewhere around two years to recover. During that time everyone else will have had two MORE years to grow.

(OOC)It is illuminating of a reason so few new nations stay around, though. There is pretty much zero chance of growing enough to compete with the top nations. Really, there's little chance of competing with the middle nations if you start fresh now. The game needs to (like so many other online games that have gotten top-heavy) make the game much easier/faster for new nations. This might also encourage some people who played and left to return. Either way, more players is better. (/OOC)

This. If someone had asked me before this war I would have said banking was obsolete. However after the damage NPO have taken, and the length of the war in question; my opinion on that has changed completely.

Edited June 23, 2009 by KingSuck

[Bilrow]

Haha, now you're linking to posts which contradict you directly!

So either you have been lying through this entire thread, or the posts in the thread that you linked to were lying for the main point of their 'analysis' and are therefore invalid.

Again, two different things are being discussed:

I am ONLY discussing the situation that nations were hiding in peace mode without fighting ANY wars. I am looking from this point on back to April 20th to gather my data.

noob5 on the other hand is talking about nations that have fought some wars, cycled into peace mode due to failed staggers by Karma, and haven't come back out since they went into peace mode even at the requests of some Military Officers. (Either due to situations like being away (OOC: RL > CN situations), inactive, or having left (OOC: abandoned their nations) and at worse insubordination. All things we can not control except the last one.

That number has gone done from his and MilCom's original assessment of 70-90, but however, that is not the point I was making.

Both statements are correct (or were correct on the latter due to changes in that number going down since June 13th) but they are discussing two different points, nations in peace mode having not fought at all versus nations in peace mode having fought slipped into peace mode due to failed staggers and then not coming back out.

Edit: two not to.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Bilrow

[TypoNinja]

Oh, Azhrarn, if you are so concerned with the amount of nations slipping into peace mode, maybe you can convince your alliance to extend itself to more than just seven (7) offensive wars against us. I count at least 56 nations approximately within GR that are in range of some of our nations.

Open war slots are hard to find, I only get to attack somebody If I camp their nation on the night a war expires, if i wait till I wake up the next morning everything in my range already has three wars. If your sitting above 30K NS or so, everything is in peace mode. If an alliance has small engagement numbers it's likely caused by them being not quite as trigger happy as the rest of us

I'm also not seeing how the NPO is going to bounce back in a year, much less suddenly. YEARS of NS have been destroyed. I lost two years of growth. Therefore, it seems reasonable that it will take me somewhere around two years to recover. During that time everyone else will have had two MORE years to grow.

I saved these replies for the people like you in the mega thread.

*sigh*

Your banks will be fine, anyone with a warchest over 200 million, no wait lets say 250 to be generous, after the two weeks are up can rebuild themselves from ZI all the way to a range where they will be wanting to buy tech again.

The beatdown of those nations will not do them lasting harm, what it WILL do is deplete their warchests and making it less likely that the NPO will be able to engage is another war in the near future.

Edit: since it might not be obvious to those who don't pay attention, 250 mil is a small sum for nations of the size were talking about.

A further note, for all the drones whining "Two months of nuclear war" The point of the term targeting the banks is the fact that 50-60 nations HAVE NOT FOUGHT at all (or very little) Those nations who have not fought will have completely intact warchests, and yes we know they do, we can see them. (In game spy ops are so helpful!) Those nations will have no trouble coming out the other side of two weeks with more than enough war chest to rebuild. They might have only 4-6k infra instead of 8-15k infra, but they still will be large enough to make repaying reps a easy task.

[Glen MoP]

A further note, for all the drones whining "Two months of nuclear war"

Please try to remain polite.

The text you quoted does not apply to what I said. I said "I have lost two years of growth" you said "your banks can still bank after we blow them up." Those are two unrelated statement. Even if the war ended with white peace and the banks all emerged largely unscathed from this conflict, it will still take something on the order of two years to rebuild my nation, unless you know some magic way to send me three billion in aid. A large number of nations have depleted their war chests and have less than 1000 infra.

Really, you're not even arguing my point about banks. My point was, very simply, banks are not obsolete if large parts of your alliance are under 1k infra and no longer have warchests. Your reply seems to be about how you need to blow up our banks for a while. So it appears to me that you're saying I'm wrong, and then agreeing with my point: banks are not obsolete.

[King DrunkWino]

Please try to remain polite.

The text you quoted does not apply to what I said. I said "I have lost two years of growth" you said "your banks can still bank after we blow them up." Those are two unrelated statement. Even if the war ended with white peace and the banks all emerged largely unscathed from this conflict, it will still take something on the order of two years to rebuild my nation, unless you know some magic way to send me three billion in aid. A large number of nations have depleted their war chests and have less than 1000 infra.

Really, you're not even arguing my point about banks. My point was, very simply, banks are not obsolete if large parts of your alliance are under 1k infra and no longer have warchests. Your reply seems to be about how you need to blow up our banks for a while. So it appears to me that you're saying I'm wrong, and then agreeing with my point: banks are not obsolete.

Look at it like this; a simple glance at your nation shows that you still have wonders and improvements intact. That'll help you rebuild much quicker than it took you to get to that point in the first place. MUCH quicker.

/(ooc) as a side note, I see your bio says you're leaving. If it's because of your battle losses, don't. It won't take you much time to get back where you were with all those improvements/wonders you've got(/ooc)

[Glen MoP]

Look at it like this; a simple glance at your nation shows that you still have wonders and improvements intact. That'll help you rebuild much quicker than it took you to get to that point in the first place. MUCH quicker.

/(ooc) as a side note, I see your bio says you're leaving. If it's because of your battle losses, don't. It won't take you much time to get back where you were with all those improvements/wonders you've got(/ooc)

I am hoping that is the case, though I've never rebuilt a nation from ground zero before. I am not about to step down from a leadership position in my nation (OOC: quit) unless the war is protracted enough to render my nation uninhabitable (OOC: I get really bored. why play a boring game? I admit to being bored with the war, but I still have a foolish hope people will be rationale and exhibit good sportsmanship.) My media outlet is simply advising my allies of what my enemies have already discovered: my nation is incapable of sustaining nuclear technology and is now out of the nuclear war it had sustained for the first 55 days and is largely reduced to expending stockpiled cruise missiles on the crazed hordes who still yammer for our destruction. In our hour of crisis, we thank you for your concern.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Glen MoP

[King DrunkWino]

I am hoping that is the case, though I've never rebuilt a nation from ground zero before.

Well there you go, a challenge that will make things less boring for a while. As to the rest of what you said, assuming you have decided that an individual surrender is not an option for you, I don't see this war lasting forever, no matter what rhetoric gets plastered here. I don't even see this turning into VietFAN for the NPO considering your opponents are interested in finding a peaceful solution to this.

That said, it's not all that surprising that this has lasted this long and it'll probably keep rolling for awhile longer still, but it'll end and you can enjoy the challenge of rebuilding your nation.

[Delta1212]

This. If someone had asked me before this war I would have said banking was obsolete. However after the damage NPO have taken, and the length of the war in question; my opinion on that has changed completely.

My nation could act as a bank at less than 2,000 infra and I have enough money to sit at 2,000 infra for the next year and a half in a state of perpetual warfare. Am I overly prepared? Perhaps a tad. But we're talking two months of war here, not 18, and this isn't even considering the fact that the bank nations in question are only expected to last two weeks. If they can't manage that, then you're saying their bank nations are 4% as prepared as I am, and my nation isn't specifically designated to rebuild my alliance after a war.

[Matthew Conrad]

Oh Revanche,

And you wonder why I don't ask you to answer these questions.

Have you now resorted to 4th grade tactics of argument?

[HeinousOne]

Uh, considering the time-frame involved, wouldn't you have been making said comment towards him whilst he was a Continuum ally?

It's a bit different from criticizing his support of a rather brutal and oxymoronic set of 'peace' terms.

Unlike you and others who put all their stock in a peace of "paper" I myself judge actions. Bob's public actions back then basically showed the trend and what was coming in the future. Obviously I was correct but the NPO leaders at that point, in my opinion, must have been on a campaign of trying to extend the inevitable which my actions were obviously not going to help. I guess I just dont have it in me to act nice to someone who holds a knife behind their back while smiling at you. Pacifican leaders seem to be alright with such, I wonder why?

I remember that.

Not exactly the validation I was hoping for but good enough to give me a chuckle. Since then I do believe we have both joked around about such.

[Bob Janova]

I have never held a knife to anyone's back, HO. Like yourself, I didn't agree with the complete gag principle of Continuum, and pointed out when I felt someone was doing something wrong or making a bad argument. (And yes I got some shouting for that too .) But I have not worked against the NPO or attempted to harm them since GW3, possibly apart from the coordination for this war (depending on how overarching you consider Karma to be), and certainly was not doing so as an ally.

[HeinousOne]

I have never held a knife to anyone's back, HO. Like yourself, I didn't agree with the complete gag principle of Continuum, and pointed out when I felt someone was doing something wrong or making a bad argument. (And yes I got some shouting for that too .) But I have not worked against the NPO or attempted to harm them since GW3, possibly apart from the coordination for this war (depending on how overarching you consider Karma to be), and certainly was not doing so as an ally.

My apologies, I did not mean that you personally were holding that knife. That is a comment directed in a more generalized direction towards all those who felt much like yourself but were not speaking their true thoughts. You held that knife out in the open with your words and I called that out, I respect that you did such but I was NPO at the time and I was going to call that out because you actually gave an example of a growing trend.

[Bob Janova]

Okay, fair enough. I guess I misinterpreted your post.

And yeah you were a pretty annoying counter-debater in NPO

[HeinousOne]

Okay, fair enough. I guess I misinterpreted your post.

And yeah you were a pretty annoying counter-debater in NPO

I am still an annoying counter-debater, its just that I am not in NPO.

[TehChron]

I am still an annoying counter-debater, its just that I am not in NPO.

Just wait until he gets into a tussle with me.

I'm pretty tenacious, myself.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Chron