DarkEntries Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I don't see any one looking to change that Enderland. That is what troubles me. What troubles me is you stating that and using my avatar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 So all you did was buy infra, didn't look at these forums or at your alliance forums but are qualified to say how wonderful they are and how unfair it all is and all because they "reached out" to you and gave you a tech deal. By the way my alliance are truly wonderful too because from the moment I joined them my aid slots have been eternally filled with tech deals as they are at this very moment.All the spite is truly baffling because these wonderful chaps are nothing but digital santa clauses helping a new guy build up. Baffles me too if that's all they did. Maybe you should try looking beyond tech deals and discover what the reality of this sitution is because a rant in favour of an alliance because they tech deal doesn't quite cut it. All alliances do the very same thing thing as far as I know. You haven't said a single thing in their favour that isn't true of any alliance. Which is just great for you by the way because you could go to any of them and find exactly the same scenario as you described. The only difference being that the rest aren't so hated for reasons you know not a single thing about so i'm thinking another alliance would be an even more utopian existence for you. To make a start on finding out what it's all about maybe you should ask them about the times they liberated other alliances of tech and then go further and ask why it's so unfair that the boot is now on the other foot. Actually, when I started Cult of Justitia I decided from the get-go that one of our cornerstones would be to never be kind to people with resources I need or aid new/small nations. So the fact that SetiCrunchers reached out to a nation with resources he needed in such a way is quite appalling in this Despotic Primitivist world outside the Body Republic. Every alliance is unique and has their own twist on family and community values. None are better than others, but some are better for certain people than others. People just have places where they fit. As for whether NPO cares about its members and they're using their members as progaganda, I would have to beg to differ. Do you have any proof of this? I certainly haven't heard any Pacificans complaining, so either you're A) so right it's pointless to even talk about it with them or B) so wrong it's not even funny./me also inserts shameless plug about how much he loves his alliance, 'cause there's nothing wrong with that. TWiP covered what happens to Pacificans that complain. HeinousOne must be on your ignore list, but he's also covered it a few times in this very thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I have nothing to say to the OP other than that any bitterness is well and truly deserved. Newer Pacificans need to realize just how much has been bottled up these past two years. Also, your last sentence is intriguing and one I won't spend a second arguing with. Rather, I can't wait for the day when Pacifica is back and wanting revenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) hmmm perhaps i should write a wall of text on how the Order turned me into a Karma supporter or has that history of the Order's asshatery been covered elsewhere? Edited June 19, 2009 by Cataduanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 hmmm perhaps i should write a wall of text on how the Order turned me into a Karma supporter or has that history of the Order's asshatery been covered elsewhere? Actually, Karma has been quite reluctant to supply a concrete list of Pacifica's "crimes." Instead, they seem to thrive on ignoring requests for a complete list or telling the person requesting to find the info themselves. Considering the long ranging history of "crimes" I'm sure something relatively concrete could be put together. The closest thing I've seen are those cute little signatures that list quite a few disbanded alliances with the caption "Never forgive, never forget" or something similar (Vilien has one). I, for one, would love to see what people consider the "crimes" of Pacifica. Opening a dialogue might be step toward normalizing relations. Anyways, I know it's not going to happen but it's nice to dream sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Not a bad idea Brandon, i will certainly raise this with the representatives to Karma from ODN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhunivelze Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Every alliance is unique and has their own twist on family and community values. None are better than others, but some are better for certain people than others. People just have places where they fit. As for whether NPO cares about its members and they're using their members as progaganda, I would have to beg to differ. Do you have any proof of this? I certainly haven't heard any Pacificans complaining, so either you're A) so right it's pointless to even talk about it with them or B) so wrong it's not even funny./me also inserts shameless plug about how much he loves his alliance, 'cause there's nothing wrong with that. First there was the imperial decree, calling Karma horrible tyrants, no better than themselves, shortly after an NPO nation makes a topic in these very forums with this exact same trend, having rarely ever used these forums before they made the post and give a pity plea about how they know nothing at all about what their own alliance has done but basically stated the obvious for all of us, he sticks with his alliance because he loves his family there, this is no different than the rest of us, I stay with DiCE because I love DiCE and all of the people in it, they're family. Shortly after this NPO nation posted that topic, this NPO nation, the one in question right now, posts a topic exactly the same, having rarely used the forums and having no idea honestly why this war has occurred, but pleading that they stick with NPO because of the family, if this isn't a last ditch effort at getting pity from the people of planet Bob, then ask you what is it? what other purpose would two nations who rarely use these forums have to take time out of their day to write up a post like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geopet Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) Actually, Karma has been quite reluctant to supply a concrete list of Pacifica's "crimes." Instead, they seem to thrive on ignoring requests for a complete list or telling the person requesting to find the info themselves. Considering the long ranging history of "crimes" I'm sure something relatively concrete could be put together. The closest thing I've seen are those cute little signatures that list quite a few disbanded alliances with the caption "Never forgive, never forget" or something similar (Vilien has one). I, for one, would love to see what people consider the "crimes" of Pacifica. Opening a dialogue might be step toward normalizing relations. Anyways, I know it's not going to happen but it's nice to dream sometimes. Pacifica's greatest crime is they set a standard that to survive on Planet Bob, an alliance must be supremely allied (OoO) or a very close friend (i.e. One Vision or MADP partner). And then they blazed a trail of redefining/reinterpreting those standards through political expediency. How is that a crime you ask? This seems to me what those sigs hope to communicate (even if inaccurately in the question of some alliances): No matter how close you think you are to Pacifica, or even Pacifica tells you that you are, you are not safe. Edited June 19, 2009 by Geopet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Pacifica's greatest crime is they set a standard that to survive on Planet Bob, an alliance must be supremely allied (OoO) or a very close friend (i.e. One Vision or MADP partner). And then they blazed a trail of redefining/reinterpreting those standards through political expediency. How is that a crime you ask? This seems to me what those sigs hope to communicate (even if inaccurately in the question of some alliances): No matter how close you think you are to Pacifica, or even Pacifica tells you that you are, you are not safe. Their crimes and misdoings are much deeper than that. That was simply the last straw that allowed the world to be turned against them, to some extent, but even that situation is not so simple. The Continuum and more broadly the coalition that was eventually brought to bear against the Polars and former-BLEU had just one thing uniting them: they wanted to eliminate the perceived threat that Polar represented. Sound familiar? That's because it's much the same as what holds Karma together, except the very core of the older coalition, The Continuum, was designed for the specific purpose of counter-balancing and forestalling aggression by a politically dominant Polar Order in the wake of the Unjust War. When the NPO opened the flood gates and openly participated in the political isolation and destruction of their oldest, strongest, and, for so long, closest allies, it set off alarm bells in a lot of minds. Some of us knew this would happen: anyone with an ounce of foresight could see the incredible danger in allowing Polar to perish with Pacific's assistance and consent. They ignored it, and they sat by and watched as those they amassed for the purpose of counter-balancing Polar let loose their pent-up aggression incurred partially by Polar's pushing back against them. When the dust cleared there was absolutely no threat to The Continuum, especially not the one it was designed to hold in check, the Pacific had lost its most dedicated and most politically important ally, the Pacific had given the impression that no amount of shared history or suffering was enough to keep their allies safe from their own self-promoting tendencies, and the many alliances around them began to question just why they remained aligned with them. The sufferings enforced during the war against BLEU et al, as well as those before, finally broke through the facade and the Pacific was absolutely defenceless in a war of PR. They had neglected it for so long, paying no mind to the populist power that the masses held and insisting that they didn't want or need it. As it became apparent that the Pacific was not going to fight back -- indeed, could not, for lack of ability -- more and more people came out of the woodwork to remind people of the atrocities committed over the years that the Pacific always seemed to be at the heart of. Their own desire and insistence on being at the centre of everything turned against them as every situation became their exclusive fault, with almost every other culprit dead on the ground, and in the majority of cases the blame wasn't entirely misplaced. Post-GII LUE's treatment, the treatment of GATO and Legion in GWIII and every other era, the Green Civil War, the Second FAN War, the Woodstock Massacre, the war against BLEU, and even the existence of the Continuum itself all came up not only as horrible things to do at an in-character level, but also an out-of-character level for the extreme damages they incurred on the CN community generally. It's just the tip of the iceberg. Yet in spite of it, Captain Edward J. Moo said "full steam ahead, and damn the ice!" It was a total disconnect from reality. The leadership has regained a bit of their grasp on things, I think, but the members clearly still have not due to the inherent and extreme disconnect between the two major portions of that alliance. It's a shame. Almost none of them seem to understand why, and if they did perhaps they would not whine so and we could get all of this behind us. But perhaps it is best that they experience some of the pain that they inflicted on so many other communities, and maybe they'll eventually understand. I doubt it. Aaaaaaanyway... talk about rambling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Actually, Karma has been quite reluctant to supply a concrete list of Pacifica's "crimes." Instead, they seem to thrive on ignoring requests for a complete list or telling the person requesting to find the info themselves. Considering the long ranging history of "crimes" I'm sure something relatively concrete could be put together. The closest thing I've seen are those cute little signatures that list quite a few disbanded alliances with the caption "Never forgive, never forget" or something similar (Vilien has one). I, for one, would love to see what people consider the "crimes" of Pacifica. Opening a dialogue might be step toward normalizing relations. Anyways, I know it's not going to happen but it's nice to dream sometimes. If you're indeed being serious, anyone with even the slightest sympathy for Karma's cause and an inkling of historical knowledge could come up with justification enough for the current war and "mistreatment" of Pacifica. If you require a list or other sort of compilation then I am sure you will get one soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 What gives Karma the right to persecute anyone for their past deeds? Who the hell named them the world police? Give me a viable answer to that and maybe I'll accept something Karma has to say on that issue, until then they are full of !@#$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) What gives Karma the right to persecute anyone for their past deeds? Who the hell named them the world police?Give me a viable answer to that and maybe I'll accept something Karma has to say on that issue, until then they are full of !@#$ heh, i could ask the same of all those such as yourself that served TC and 1V (regardless of where they are now)...what gave TC/1V the right to persecute people for their past deeds or whole alliances for the past deeds of a single individual (CK and GATO-1V war anyone)?? Besides who said Karma is the world police?? i have not heard one leader say that (maybe i missed that post ). Edited June 19, 2009 by Cataduanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 What gives Karma the right to persecute anyone for their past deeds? Who the hell named them the world police? The same could be said for the last Hegemony. The only difference is that Karma has at least some legitimate claim to the moral high ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) heh, i could ask the same of all those such as yourself that served TC and 1V (regardless of where they are now)...what gave TC/1V the right to persecute people for their past deeds or whole alliances for the past deeds of a single individual (CK and GATO-1V war anyone)?? Besides who said Karma is the world police?? i not heard one leader say that (maybe i missed that post ). The CK thing was mostly Barb's fault if you ask me. That was a Terms violation and he shoulda reported it immediately. I personally didn't like that it was a re-roll that got GATO rolled. Go find the NPO DoW thread from that war and see how I reacted even being a member of TPF at the time. Another key difference is that infraction was committed against Pacifica directly. If they felt the need to respond fine. However, how can anyone in the alliances currently engaged make NPO pay for slights that were never even committed against any of them? Edited June 19, 2009 by magicninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 The same could be said for the last Hegemony. The only difference is that Karma has at least some legitimate claim to the moral high ground. Please give me some examples. also, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 The CK thing was mostly Barb's fault if you ask me. That was a Terms violation and he shoulda reported it immediately. I personally didn't like that it was a re-roll that got GATO rolled. Go find the NPO DoW thread from that war and see how I reacted even being a member of TPF at the time.Another key difference is that infraction was committed against Pacifica directly. If they felt the need to respond fine. However, how can anyone in the alliances currently engaged make NPO pay for slights that were never even committed against any of them? But still the punishment was disproportionate to the crime no? and despite the infraction being at Pacifica's expense it was 1V that rolled GATO for over two months. Besides the GATO-1V war is but one example of disproportionate punishment of the sort so readily handed out by the Order. I take no issue with you personally Magic but in the same way you lambast karma as a whole i can readily counter by criticizing 1V/TC as a whole. Fact is not all individuals in Karma are worried about moral implications, certainly some adhere to a set of moral high ground principles but some like myself just wanted to see the Hegemony fall, to see 1V burn brightly.....as you can imagine the recent weeks have more than made up for the many grim months in which i labored in CN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 What gives Karma the right to persecute anyone for their past deeds? Who the hell named them the world police?Give me a viable answer to that and maybe I'll accept something Karma has to say on that issue, until then they are full of !@#$ They set the precedent. Karma is holding alliances to their own standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Please give me some examples.also, Pacifica and the Hegemony had a two year long history of bullying, intimidation and censorship (in that hundreds refrained from speaking their minds due to repercussions against their alliances) among other equally immoral things. Since Karma has only been in existence for a month or so (?), and has so far only served to fight alliances which took part in said bullying, intimidation and censorship, its claim of being the 'right' ones is far more credible. Need I really explain this? What happened to the "Pacifica's ebil, we noez it, deal with it" attitude? Perhaps not so appealing now that a 'non-ebil' force is actually able to defeat you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 They set the precedent. Karma is holding alliances to their own standards. Where did they ever persecute someone for something that never affected them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Pacifica and the Hegemony had a two year long history of bullying, intimidation and censorship (in that hundreds refrained from speaking their minds due to repercussions against their alliances) among other equally immoral things. Since Karma has only been in existence for a month or so (?), and has so far only served to fight alliances which took part in said bullying, intimidation and censorship, its claim of being the 'right' ones is far more credible.Need I really explain this? What happened to the "Pacifica's ebil, we noez it, deal with it" attitude? Perhaps not so appealing now that a 'non-ebil' force is actually able to defeat you? You need to keep up with the times. Apparently Karma now says they don't care about morality, just winning and winning big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 heh Karma has never had a centralized command that spouts the last word in our collective opnions, in marked contrast to TC at times we constituents of Karma are allowed to voice our own varied opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) But still the punishment was disproportionate to the crime no? and despite the infraction being at Pacifica's expense it was 1V that rolled GATO for over two months. Besides the GATO-1V war is but one example of disproportionate punishment of the sort so readily handed out by the Order. Cata I'm not talking about disproportionate punishment here. I'm talking about the alliances making NPO pay for things NPO never did to them. Athens has a good beef. NPO made them give up a lot of tech. OK Athens deserves some. So does OV. How the hell can those other alli9ance be claiming to be making NPO pay for GATO, or, FAN, or GPA, etc. etc. What gives them the right to collect reps in GATO's name? heh Karma has never had a centralized command that spouts the last word in our collective opnions, in marked contrast to TC at times we constituents of Karma are allowed to voice our own varied opinions. I'm going by majority opinion coming from Karma these days. It used to be more about being moral and doing the right thing. Apparently things have changed. Edited June 19, 2009 by magicninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 You need to keep up with the times. Apparently Karma now says they don't care about morality, just winning and winning big. Well then Karma wouldn't be applying karma, would they? And I, as a former Vox member, would find myself disagreeing with 'Karma's' new message. Fashionable or not, morality has always been at the centre of my political stances. And this will always be the case. Apologies if I'm sounding a little pompous, but it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) Cata I'm not talking about disproportionate punishment here. I'm talking about the alliances making NPO pay for things NPO never did to them. Athens has a good beef. NPO made them give up a lot of tech. OK Athens deserves some. So does OV. How the hell can those other alli9ance be claiming to be making NPO pay for GATO, or, FAN, or GPA, etc. etc. What gives them the right to collect reps in GATO's name? I was not aware that anyone was claiming reps on GATO behalf??? besides there are many individuals spread across many of Karma's many alliances that have suffered even if their own AA has not in the way you are pointing at. Do you think my anger borne from the GATO war is any less because i now fly ODN's AA?. Karma has full justification as this is a war and NPO and its 'allies' have lost this conflict, was it not Pax Pacifica that set the precedent of curbstomping and subsequent stripping of assets? all justifed by a simple line 'we won, deal with it'. You my friend are reading far too much into the moral protestations of a select few, this is war and in war there can be no substitute for victory. I'm going by majority opinion coming from Karma these days. It used to be more about being moral and doing the right thing. Apparently things have changed. Well some of us are not in touch with the majority view (if it is indeed a majority view), some of us take a pragmatic view to this war and its hoped end. Edited June 19, 2009 by Cataduanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well then Karma wouldn't be applying karma, would they? And I, as a former Vox member, would find myself disagreeing with 'Karma's' new message. Fashionable or not, morality has always been at the centre of my political stances. And this will always be the case. Apologies if I'm sounding a little pompous, but it's true. Karma has absolutely no moral high ground to stand on here. They say now it was never about having better morals than the NPO. So I don;t see why you are even bringing morals into it. Karma has no morals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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