The Phoenix Federation Announcement

[bigwoody]

Hmm, if the list of cancellations on Torn grows, will Torn be better off without them too?

We have some excellent, steadfast allies, as does TPF. I think both parties will get along fine long after this treaty expires. At the least, some of these responses have saved me some trouble by narrowing down the list of places I can expect to find a hand of friendship, so we are surely better off in that sense.

[HeinousOne]

We have some excellent, steadfast allies, as does TPF. I think both parties will get along fine long after this treaty expires. At the least, some of these responses have saved me some trouble by narrowing down the list of places I can expect to find a hand of friendship, so we are surely better off in that sense.

No doubt, I am not trying to say you have no friends and that you will lose all your allies. I was just saying in response to that rather out of the blue response by boris about FOK that if any other alliances drop on Torn will we see Torn and ex members that recently left making statements about how Torn is better off without them too?

[Roadie]

No doubt, I am not trying to say you have no friends and that you will lose all your allies. I was just saying in response to that rather out of the blue response by boris about FOK that if any other alliances drop on Torn will we see Torn and ex members that recently left making statements about how Torn is better off without them too?

Probably, tbh. Before this war and the time leadingup to it, TORN as well as countless other alliances had allies that were only allies in name, but not in action.

TORN is just one of many that will do well to clean up the treaties when this thing is over.

[bigwoody]

No doubt, I am not trying to say you have no friends and that you will lose all your allies. I was just saying in response to that rather out of the blue response by boris about FOK that if any other alliances drop on Torn will we see Torn and ex members that recently left making statements about how Torn is better off without them too?

I don't think you see TORN members even now saying we are better off for this.

TPF were great allies for a long time, but it is true that our relations had soured over time, and we did not remain allies in fact, but only on paper. If that means we should have canceled ourselves earlier, then I take full blame for failing to do so. But we all are where we are, and while this cancellation had become inevitable, we still wish TPF well and have common friends.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

I don't think you see TORN members even now saying we are better off for this.

TPF were great allies for a long time, but it is true that our relations had soured over time, and we did not remain allies in fact, but only on paper. If that means we should have canceled ourselves earlier, then I take full blame for failing to do so. But we all are where we are, and while this cancellation had become inevitable, we still wish TPF well and have common friends.

[ooc]Just wondering if you still have the source files for your sig. Its slightly inaccurate now, and im not sure if anybody pointed it out to you yet.[/ooc]

[Vlad Dracula]

Could really care less about either of them....so good luck

[bigwoody]

[ooc]Just wondering if you still have the source files for your sig. Its slightly inaccurate now, and im not sure if anybody pointed it out to you yet.[/ooc]

[ooc]If you want to fix it feel free, I have no art skill.[/ooc]

[Gen Lee]

[ooc]If you want to fix it feel free, I have no art skill.[/ooc]

He's probably talking about this part.

Billy Mays Squad: Removes your infra, tech, and land like it was never there! Here's how to order!

What happens when you touch TORN's allies.

[BamaBuc]

He's probably talking about this part.

Most likely he meant the part of the image that still reads "TORN Emperor"

-Bama

[Bob Janova]

oh boo hoo for karma. some nations took extra damage in war.. THATS WHAT HAPPENS IN WAR, YOU BLOW !@#$ UP!

so what if extra damage was caused.

You know something else that happens in war? Losers pay reparations to fix some of the '!@#$' they blew up. Although apparently the alliances on TPF's front consider me naive to think that reparations are to go towards fixing damage, so perhaps doing extra damage doesn't make a difference.

The fact is at this point that TPF have fulfilled their honourable obligations, and are just damaging their own present and future by continuing to fight what is not only a losing but a lost battle. Alliances that run before the outcome is determined are cowardly, those that fight to get their allies the best possible chance of a victory and then surrender when the game is up retain their honour.

However, that's straying off topic. As for this cancellation, it makes sense in the circumstances, and everyone's life would be a lot easier if the 'paper-only' treaties were all cancelled.

[flak attack]

Most likely he meant the part of the image that still reads "TORN Emperor"

-Bama

That's what I thought too.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

That's what I thought too.

Its what I meant as well, but of course somebody had to turn it into an attack on ones character... Oh well, i should have known.

[Cobalt]

Here's a tl;dr

"We thought NPO was going to do the dishonorable thing and screw us, so we decided to be clever and pre-empted their dishonor with our own cowardice, and in the process screwed over all our allies and got their nations blown to hell in a war we started."

)):

...what pedestal of courage are you on that gives you the right to call TORN cowards?

I was in those war room chats during the WoTC. OR and TORN were the first to hit GR after they counter DOW'd on Valhalla+GGA. We knew we were gonna hit almost immediately by NpO and/or MK, and we didn't know about the MCXA/TOP/Grämlins/Umbrella/FOK/RnR/FARK DoW that happened two days later. TORN made the call to go in anyways as their allies needed help, and as we had discussed during our inception, OR followed.

It was a tough war. We got hit back hard. It went full nuclear with MK. Our side won.

Then we declared white peace.

TORN took a beating for its allies. Their counter-blitz on GR occured less than five minutes after GR's own. They fought a full, tough war, then asked for nothing in return. Calling them cowards or implying that they are in any way dishonorable is just a display of ignorance.

[BamaBuc]

The fact is at this point that TPF have fulfilled their honourable obligations, and are just damaging their own present and future by continuing to fight what is not only a losing but a lost battle. Alliances that run before the outcome is determined are cowardly, those that fight to get their allies the best possible chance of a victory and then surrender when the game is up retain their honour.

Mr. Janova, here at TPF we have a radically different idea of "fulfilling our honourable obligations" than you do. We fight for our comrades and our allies to the last man. We don't leave them to die when the war becomes a lost cause. Quite frankly sir, we don't !@#$@#$ give a damn about how much this war damages us. Our brothers and allies are out there. We know the war is lost. We know the game is up. We just don't care. We NEVER leave a man behind.

-Bama

[Heracles the Great]

Mr. Janova, here at TPF we have a radically different idea of "fulfilling our honourable obligations" than you do. We fight for our comrades and our allies to the last man. We don't leave them to die when the war becomes a lost cause. Quite frankly sir, we don't !@#$@#$ give a damn about how much this war damages us. Our brothers and allies are out there. We know the war is lost. We know the game is up. We just don't care. We NEVER leave a man behind.

-Bama

The UJW ring any bells? Apparently not

[Vol Navy]

How about bringing up some stuff from the TF! days, it makes about as much sense.

I've been in TPF for well over 600 days and I wasn't in TPF for the UJW.

You know pretty much the entire military leadership and basically all the Gov from UJW days are no longer in TPF or even playing CN, of those that are only one that I can think of may be in TPF Gov right now. That I remember, most of the Gov/Military leadership that are still playing from when I joined a few weeks after UJW ended are in Poison Clan right now.

Your post is an example of Bob's biggest problem imo. No one pays attention to what is in front of them, only to stuff that happened years before.

Last I checked TPF had lost over 70% of our pre-war strength in this conflict that was decided before the first shot was fired. I would say in a conservative estimate we've been hit by 1500+ nukes so far in this war and we are currently planning for the war lasting another 6 months or more.

But keep ignoring the current and go back to things that happened years ago when the alliance was entirely different than it is now.

[NeCoHo]

Okay, let's use a similar line of thought, Vol. TORN had a massive gov before we placed a new charter in. Of that massive government (We had 10 people, if not more) only 3 at this moment have any sort of government power (and one of them, bigwoody, plays a greatly reduced role in the government). TORN's government has drastically changed, much as you say TPF's did. If your argument revolves around the "Government is different" point, than I would hope it would be safe to assume that the same applies to TORN also.

By those means the justified actions of TORN during the beginning of the Karma war should also be "history," correct?

EDIT: someone special was just elected as TORN's Representative. That brings the total to 3.

Edited June 17, 2009 by NeCoHo

[Heracles the Great]

How about bringing up some stuff from the TF! days, it makes about as much sense.

I've been in TPF for well over 600 days and I wasn't in TPF for the UJW.

You know pretty much the entire military leadership and basically all the Gov from UJW days are no longer in TPF or even playing CN, of those that are only one that I can think of may be in TPF Gov right now. That I remember, most of the Gov/Military leadership that are still playing from when I joined a few weeks after UJW ended are in Poison Clan right now.

Your post is an example of Bob's biggest problem imo. No one pays attention to what is in front of them, only to stuff that happened years before.

Last I checked TPF had lost over 70% of our pre-war strength in this conflict that was decided before the first shot was fired. I would say in a conservative estimate we've been hit by 1500+ nukes so far in this war and we are currently planning for the war lasting another 6 months or more.

But keep ignoring the current and go back to things that happened years ago when the alliance was entirely different than it is now.

That's great and all, but I was simply pointing out the flaw in Bama's statement

We NEVER leave a man behind.

NEVER didn't just start when the Karmic War began and whether or not TPF is led by the same people that led them during the UJW, he's using TPF's name in his post and speaking about their resolve as an alliance when the alliance's history says differently. I'm very well aware that TPF is trying to correct their past blunders with this stand, and they have fought quite honorably in this conflict. That doesn't change the fact that they indeed have left friends and comrades behind on the battlefield in the past.

[Bob Janova]

Mr. Janova, here at TPF we have a radically different idea of "fulfilling our honourable obligations" than you do. We fight for our comrades and our allies to the last man. We don't leave them to die when the war becomes a lost cause. Quite frankly sir, we don't !@#$@#$ give a damn about how much this war damages us. Our brothers and allies are out there. We know the war is lost. We know the game is up. We just don't care. We NEVER leave a man behind.

-Bama

Says the man who wasn't even in TPF until recently. You sir are the equivalent of a TOOL rogue, jumping to whichever alliance in which you could semi-legitimately continue this unrighteous war, and your attempt to speak for TPF is rather silly.

I know Mhawk has made a similar decision but he won't come in here ranting and raving like you are. The fact is that TPF has 'left a man behind' before, and while your decision to commit a long slow suicide alongside NPO is respectable, your argument is made significantly weaker by your ignorance of TPF's history, and your recent decision to abandon your alliance in order to throw some more meat into the grinder.

The fact is that TPF's continued presence at the front at this point is not going to help NPO get a quicker or easier peace, you have won a lot of respect for standing by them (although that is somewhat cancelled out by that lost due to pushing for the dodgy CB in the first place), and continuing to stay at war is simply putting your regrowth back by a day and a half for each day that you fight (since you are still taking damage). While I respect your (TPF's) decision, at this point I consider it to be a mistake.

[D34th]

Says the man who wasn't even in TPF until recently. You sir are the equivalent of a TOOL rogue, jumping to whichever alliance in which you could semi-legitimately continue this unrighteous war, and your attempt to speak for TPF is rather silly.

I know Mhawk has made a similar decision but he won't come in here ranting and raving like you are. The fact is that TPF has 'left a man behind' before, and while your decision to commit a long slow suicide alongside NPO is respectable, your argument is made significantly weaker by your ignorance of TPF's history, and your recent decision to abandon your alliance in order to throw some more meat into the grinder.

The fact is that TPF's continued presence at the front at this point is not going to help NPO get a quicker or easier peace, you have won a lot of respect for standing by them (although that is somewhat cancelled out by that lost due to pushing for the dodgy CB in the first place), and continuing to stay at war is simply putting your regrowth back by a day and a half for each day that you fight (since you are still taking damage). While I respect your (TPF's) decision, at this point I consider it to be a mistake.

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you, never is a mistake stand for what you believe, and they believe they need stand besides NPO and don't think this is stuborn or a wrong decision. Although I'm not fan of all TPF's decision and their positions in this war I would like to be allied with someone who doesn't leave his allies even in a lost battle. There is no clause in a treaty saying "We will surrender if we see that the war is lost" and I would be sad in see Gremlins acting in this way if you were in the losing side.

[WarriorConcept]

Mr. Janova, here at TPF we have a radically different idea of "fulfilling our honourable obligations" than you do. We fight for our comrades and our allies to the last man. We don't leave them to die when the war becomes a lost cause. Quite frankly sir, we don't !@#$@#$ give a damn about how much this war damages us. Our brothers and allies are out there. We know the war is lost. We know the game is up. We just don't care. We NEVER leave a man behind.

-Bama

Congrats

[Bob Janova]

We will surrender if we see that the war is lost

That is not what I am saying. Grämlins will stand by its allies in a losing war. By fighting and doing significant extra damage, and by good negotiations, you can still improve the outcome for your allies, even if you can't win. What I am saying is that surrender is a good option if there is no longer any benefit to your allies to staying in, and, in my opinion, that point has come for TPF, with terms presented to NPO and with TPF's damage capacity reduced below the level at which it has a significant impact.

However, I do recognise that the point where the situation changes is a subjective call and I respect TPF for following their judgement courageously.

[Daikos]

If you are dense enough to think we've fought for two months in pursuit of reparations, you obviously don't know us and our allies. By all indications your ignorance is willful.

Ignore Misr, he lacks that filter between his brain and hands that prevents him from typing every idiotic thing that comes into his head.

[The Crimson King]

Okay, let's use a similar line of thought, Vol. TORN had a massive gov before we placed a new charter in. Of that massive government (We had 10 people, if not more) only 3 at this moment have any sort of government power (and one of them, bigwoody, plays a greatly reduced role in the government). TORN's government has drastically changed, much as you say TPF's did. If your argument revolves around the "Government is different" point, than I would hope it would be safe to assume that the same applies to TORN also.

By those means the justified actions of TORN during the beginning of the Karma war should also be "history," correct?

EDIT: someone special was just elected as TORN's Representative. That brings the total to 3.

There is one fatal flaw in the argument presented here. Vol is speaking to the point that TPF should be judged on the recent actions and decisions (for the good and the bad) of the standing gov, rather than those from 2+years ago. Basically he is saying that the new gov (and the choices they have made) are different, and this can be gauged by the subsequent actions of the sitting gov. TORN is a completely different issue at this point. You have done what you feel necessary internally to fix issues you felt were there, and to this end you should be applauded. However the gov, as you stated, is new, and on a political scale many will not be able to gauge the "character" (for lack of better term) of the current sitting gov until your proverbial feet are put to the fire. I know many of us hope to see the best of what TORN has to offer when this situation arises.

[Gen Lee]

Its what I meant as well, but of course somebody had to turn it into an attack on ones character... Oh well, i should have known.

heh, well actually I wasn't aware he is not TORN emperor anymore.