Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Roadie]

You'd think by now they would.

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

[mykep]

nor you.

NO U

None of those were asked to pay reps of this magnitude, and none of those were asked to do it with only 25% of their alliance allowed to send the reps. NPO has over 700 members, but the terms require that all reps be paid by nations which have 1,000 tech. When the offer was first made, there were 181 nations which qualified by having 1,000 tech. (Many of which are at ZI.) Now there are fewer than 181, as some nations which had barely over 1,000 have lost tech and no longer qualify.

Nope, but you benefited from all of them. Not to mention that 25% of your 700 is about MK's size. As for your last point, it'll keep getting smaller and smaller.

[WarriorConcept]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

Classic.

[Bob]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

Roadie produces gems.

[Aurion]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

Yikes.

Haven't heard a variation on that one in a while.

[James Wilson]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

OOC: Nice ooc attacks there mate./ooc

IC: Classy.

[Haflinger]

While larger alliance do have a less active membership than smaller ones. The top nations of alliances are usually the most active nations as they've been here on Planet Bob the longest or have risen quickly by actively doing tech deals. This is why I do not believe it when the NPO says they cannot get to that 90%.

The 90% applies to the entire alliance, including the lower nations.

I doubt we would accept a viceroy, but it's a moot point for several reasons. I don't make the decisions, Karma hasn't made that offer, and viceroys are no longer allowed.

As for GATO, are you saying that if we didn't ask for reps you'd accept being put under viceroy? (Assuming there were a way to do it that was legal by the TOS)

There is. Set up your own forum for the NPO and require their members to register on it.

[Vol Navy]

Ahh another 30 pages of hilarity.

In the past 30 pages since my last post this morning I've read the following gems.

NPO is to blame for terms the GOONS handed down.

NPO is to blame for terms VE handed down.

NPO is to blame for the horrible and extremely harsh wonder decom terms that Sparta and company gave Greenland Republic.

NPO is to blame for the terms Sponge and NpO gave to \m/.

Legion and GATO members aren't allowed to ask that their name not be used for propaganda against NPO because they aren't real members of those alliances. The real members quit on the alliances long ago and those that stuck with those alliances are no longer allowed to speak for them.

Really, I'm stunned that so many preach this and so many others eat it up. My gosh, will no alliance take responsibility for any terms they've ever given? Are all wars and all terms given in the history of Planet Bob NPO's fault?

And for the Spartan who made the crack a few pages back about us being in peace mode and that we needed to shut up. Face a true war, the war that we have and see where you are after 50+ days. You do know that Sparta shares a HUGE chunk of the responsibility for the failed staggars that allowed many of the current NPO nations who are in peace mode to get there.

Hugging that infra to cling to that #1 spot caused this and left others fighting with you on the Pacifica front and other fronts in the lurch of having to take on more wars and trying to get more staggars. Two of the big alliances fighting Pacifica lost sanction due to the beating they've taken. One gained ground as Pacifica's large nations went days and days without getting attacked and went into peace mode. Out of peace mode, and back into peace mode.

Fighting mostly the Mushroom Kingdom it took me 47 days and 41 nukes eaten to get to peace mode due to a missed staggar. They know how to carry war to their enemy. They are an alliance I will respect a great deal from here on out regardless of the outcome of this war.

[Ragashingo]

There is. Set up your own forum for the NPO and require their members to register on it.

Technically you can be a viceroy of an alliance without even owning an admin account on their boards, or even having an account with them at all. Verification of your orders might be slightly difficult in the later case though

[Roadie]

OOC: Nice ooc attacks there mate./ooc

IC: Classy.

Just keep in mind that I'm included in that 5% of UberDorks.

[Eskimo]

I know it's not worth reading 160 (probably 170 pages by now). I read the first post. And a few random ones.

The terms are harsh. But I expected just as much. They also seem perfectly possible. NPO is one of the, if not THE best alliance in game. If anyone could pull off these terms, it would be them. I can understand completely why Karma would offer these terms. I can understand why NPO would reject them, but do you really think people who are going to offer these terms are going to just decide to give up and reduce them? It's not going to get any better...

Anyways, I hope all involved get peace as quickly as possible. And that the future will be brighter than the present.

[Aurion]

Just keep in mind that I'm included in that 5% of UberDorks.

Fair enough.

[Haflinger]

Technically you can be a viceroy of an alliance without even owning an admin account on their boards, or even having an account with them at all. Verification of your orders might be slightly difficult in the later case though

Yeah, true. I was more just outlining how one could setup a traditional viceroy system.

[Elendil old]

NO U

Nope, but you benefited from all of them. Not to mention that 25% of your 700 is about MK's size. As for your last point, it'll keep getting smaller and smaller.

Smaller alliances usually have more activity levels. Ask Legion in GWIII how well their member count worked out of them.

[Uralica]

<snip>

Dude, an essay like that would get you into a grad program at Uralikan Yliopisto easily

Whether that would be in Sociology, Philosophy, or Political Science, I don't know.

OOC: that was the best post I've seen in recent months.

[WarriorConcept]

Smaller alliances usually have more activity levels. Ask Legion in GWIII how well their member count worked out of them.

Which means, they still had less members than you.

[sethb]

Dude, an essay like that would get you into a grad program at Uralikan Yliopisto easily

Whether that would be in Sociology, Philosophy, or Political Science, I don't know.

OOC: that was the best post I've seen in recent months.

My god, you put a lot of time into that. I'm impressed.

[Matthew Conrad]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

eh NVM, already mentioned.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Azaghul]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

Those in glass houses....

[Harold the Saxon]

My god, you put a lot of time into that. I'm impressed.

Yes, and since I don't want it to die, I am restating it. Hopefully people won't hate on me too much for double-posting. The Mods may do as they see fit (hallowed by thy name, Mod).

Hello. I am going to ask all of you a really big favour. You probably won't like this nor will you agree, but my favour is ask that you read all the way through and decide for yourselves, as objectively as possible, how you feel about my analysis.

Universality. A ethical standard held by rights-based theorists that a moral law should be universal in application: each person must be held to the standards we would choose for ourselves. A quicker reference would be 'do unto others as you would have done unto you.'

I am not one for always carrying every OOC characteristic into a game. As such, I try to create a different character as much as possible. Moreover, I feel some ideals are worth striving for in a separate, virtual world. One of them is basic concept of rights - the right to life, property, and liberty. That is, that each individual and alliance should should be protected in their own existence, to that which they have made, and to their ability to exist without external interference in their acts of freedom.

I am one who always believes in a good trial, or, in this case, a due process of law and objectivity. I am one who believes in innocence always before guilt, and decision always before punishment. I am one who believes not in the justice of the lynching mob, but in the justice of a world we wish to envision; the world we will want to create for ourselves.

You may hate the Pacific Order. You may despise every single attribute, action, and player amongst them, if you will. What I ask is not that you change your mind, only that you give them due process. Treat them as you would wish to be treated in their condition and subject them only to terms which are both reasonable (as in non-contradictory) and just (as in terms properly earned by their actions).

In the terms of what is just, it is easy to see the main Karma argument for a serious punishment of the NPO. Not only do I understand completely, but I also concur. The manner in which Pacifica has played this game, from my ethical standpoint, is very much in contradiction of what I have just told you. In fact, I am a player who has been wiped out before due to such actions. My goal is not to prove to you that the NPO is good and deserves no punishment, rather, that, even if they are evil to a degree, that justice is not served by total, unrequited revenge. Why is this? As much wrong as they may have done and players they have made furious (and boy, I know many of them. There have been conspiracies running against Pacifica for over two years now, in my recollection) Pacifica still has these fundamental rights of freedom, property, and life. Justice, no matter how severe, should not serve as a means to enslave and shackle these people - they are active, regular players like you or I and not savage animals who deserve to be chained. Give them huge reparations demands and give them regular surrender terms: decomission of missiles, destruction of wonders, reduced armies, and other restrictions but none that inhibit their ability to exist as a sovereign entity.

Non-contradictory terms are an essential to the rights-based formation of Pacifica's surrender. When I say non-contradictory, I suggest terms that are sensible in their demands in that they are both possible and reachable. Karma has not properly followed this thought. For while it is fine to demand a large amount of reparations for war indemnities, another demand, if not preventing the reparations, seriously harms this ability. I am speaking about the 2-week free war campaign on Pacifica nations. You may name it as you please. I see it as simply a way to beatdown nations for more before surrender terms can take effect.

It is one thing to demand exorbitant reparations, but another, completely contradictory measure, to demand that an alliance sign itself to annihilation before such a thing can occur. Even a thief, as low as he may be, and perhaps as the NPO has acted, would not attempt to pretend to you what they do is ethically correct. Not only is this term a major case of coercion - the use of force to compel a party to give-in - but economically unsound. Certainly, any leader can ascertain that, if both of these terms come into effect, there will be problems. Regardless of how well the NPO economic position is, and it is probably not stellar at this moment, the last thing you want during your repayment is 6 wars filling your slots, draining your resources. Regardless of how well off your nation is, you're going to bleed money, technology, land, and infrastructure like a serious case of hemophilia.

This term has never been demanded, in my memory, to any alliance. Not in this nature. Its clear intention is to, at the very least, make Pacifica's position untenable and difficult. This is not wrong on its own.

Why it is wrong, as we track back, is universality. Imagine you are a regular soldier in the NPO ranks, fighting a war to desparately save your nation from this apocalypse. Surely, you don't want to fight forever, but you don't want to lose your power to grow and maintain your existence. Then, you are offered terms which may make this impossible. I admit, in the past, other alliances have been offered these kinds of terms (and may they rest in peace, such as NAAC, NoR, NoV, LUE, ONOS, et al). Would you not be inclined to be suspicious and wish to preserve yourself; would you not feel you deserve punishment but not that any nation deserves enslavement or any form of permanent-ZI?

My rights-based approach suggests that the reasonable limits of any form of revenge borders where complete removal of unfair advantage or retribution for wrongs done meets the inability to live, function, or own a nation at all. Surely your goal is not to send every NPO nation to ZI nor to force them to quit the game (or maybe even leave the NPO, if they choose) or prevent the NPO from being an alliance which can conduct its own affairs. Your goal is to punish the NPO severely enough to prevent it from committing to the unjust acts it has perpetrated in the past and will do so in the future.

Let us not be the ones who tar and feather the man or pull the guillotine on the King before we decide if our actions are morally correct. If we do this to the NPO - that is, subject them to these harsh and debilitating terms - with a clearly malicious intent (which, right or wrong, is Karma's goal) what kind of world will we create? What kind of standard do we set? Are we properly considering alternatives or are we merely playing follow the leader until NPO goes to hell with head in a handbasket?

TL; DR: I think, in conclusion, that these terms are severe because of the introduction of the 2-week war period following surrender. I concur that it would be just to demand heavy reparations of the NPO to atone for misdeeds against enemies both past and present. However, I do not agree to terms which clearly handicap any alliance from carrying out not only its regular functions but very existence itself. Though the NPO has a history of doing just that, I believe that a better political state would involve us standing up to a due process of law involving an objective analysis of our actions, and not just a blind, emotional revenge, leaving us politically fragmented and angry. If we treat the NPO, in its wrongful steps, as we would wished to be treated in their position, it is plain to see that punishment is necessary, but total destruction is not morally correct. Cut the forced war term and make them pay the reparations in full. A better world, if we strive to create one for ourselves, will not be made in the ashes of aggression, blood, and antagonism - the seeds which have sown the beast's own destruction. Likewise, Karma, if it knows its true name at all, should appreciate the value of justice with reasonable limits; revenge but not total annihilation; war but only to preserve peace; preservation of life as opposed to temptation of pulling the trigger.

[Das Girl]

Heh, I guess that was a typo on his part, logistically possible makes sense

There are just too many nations that are absent for OOC-reasons: exams, vacations, moving, marriage, baby being born, etc. We will not kick out members who have a very good reason of being away, and we will not force them to pay attention to things that are completely irrelevant to their present situation. I would not want to be part of such an alliance, and fortunately, Moo thinks the same. We will not accept those 90%.

The majority of what I have seen is not an unwillingness to accept making the requested payments, only a refusal to accept what seems a near impossible feat. I understand, this is an amazingly busy time of year for a lot of folks and would present a huge challenge. To be forced to war for two weeks, not so bad. To be put at war indefinitely until that 90% is reached could(and likely would) be a disastrous mistake. I would not rush to judge this as a poor decision on the part of the NPO.

I believe I have a grasp on what Karma is trying to do, but I don't believe this is the way. A more reasonable number of warmode members being offered perhaps, or a consequence for those who do not pull out of peace mode? 90% at those strength limits is quite unreasonable, I think few alliances would be able to achieve that level of activity.

I sincerely wish the best of luck for all parties involved to bring this matter to a close.

[Nintenderek]

The 95% of CN players that aren't World Class UberDorks have no idea why everybody hates NPO. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be infatuated with Cyber Poitics.

So the 95 percent are the "Uberdorks", while the minority is completely right and thinks NPO hasn't done anything to deserve this?

Your math skills suck.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Roadie]

So the 95 percent are the "Uberdorks", while the minority is completely right and thinks NPO hasn't done anything to deserve this?

Your math skills suck.

No. Ima saying the 5% of us uberdorks that pay attention to politics shouldn't expect the average alliance member who has no interest in politics to know why everybody hates NPO.

I didn't say anything about who's right or who's wrong, I'd appreciate you not twisting my words.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Roadie

[Nintenderek]

No. Ima saying the 5% of us uberdorks that pay attention to politics shouldn't expect the average alliance member who has no interest in politics to know why everybody hates NPO.

I didn't say anything about who's right or who's wrong, I'd appreciate you not twisting my words.

You should have been more specific in your post on what you meant by uberdork

[Eskimo]

You should have been more specific in your post on what you meant by uberdork

It wasn't that hard to comprehend...I understood it and I'm skimming almost everything except for the OP and a few posts that look intelligent.