Don't Worry, Be Happy

[Master Hakai]

So OV, VE (2nd), GOD, R&R, RIA, Farkistan, IPA, ARES, Apocalypse, TOH, GR, Vanguard, Athens, MK, =LOST=, Fly, The Internationale, MOON, Orion, iFOK, Iunctus, SLCB, FCO, 1TF, GLOF, NV, RAD, IK, AO, AN, CSN, TTK, CRAP, The 57th Overlanders, CoIN, LEN, OTF, DT, DE, Nemesis, DF, FoB, the Immortals, TSC, LOUD, DiCE, Avalanche, FOUND, CCC, LSR, OA, Kronos, Argent, The Syndicate, Carpe Diem, Genesis, TFO, UCR, TDD, =WE=, Amaranth, LSF, The Brigade, IngSoc, STA, SSX, and above all else PPF were all a part of Pacifica's wars of aggression?

RAD, for one, never aligned ourselves with NPO, TPF, IRON, or any of those alliances. Call us non-conformists, but we pick our allies based on who we're friends with, not large alliances who can keep us safe.

Although, looking back on it, I wish we would have signed something with TPF. They were some of the kindest, most respectful people to us back in the day. So sad to see them getting destroyed the way they are now.

[Jason8]

RAD, for one, never aligned ourselves with NPO, TPF, IRON, or any of those alliances. Call us non-conformists, but we pick our allies based on who we're friends with, not large alliances who can keep us safe.

Although, looking back on it, I wish we would have signed something with TPF. They were some of the kindest, most respectful people to us back in the day. So sad to see them getting destroyed the way they are now.

I love your sig, Hakai <3

[enderland]

So OV, VE (2nd), GOD, R&R, RIA, Farkistan, IPA, ARES, Apocalypse, TOH, GR, Vanguard, Athens, MK, =LOST=, Fly, The Internationale, MOON, Orion, iFOK, Iunctus, SLCB, FCO, 1TF, GLOF, NV, RAD, IK, AO, AN, CSN, TTK, CRAP, The 57th Overlanders, CoIN, LEN, OTF, DT, DE, Nemesis, DF, FoB, the Immortals, TSC, LOUD, DiCE, Avalanche, FOUND, CCC, LSR, OA, Kronos, Argent, The Syndicate, Carpe Diem, Genesis, TFO, UCR, TDD, =WE=, Amaranth, LSF, The Brigade, IngSoc, STA, SSX, and above all else PPF were all a part of Pacifica's wars of aggression?

Hell yeah we were!

[Master Hakai]

I love your sig, Hakai <3

Thanks mang! Slayer99 is pretty much amazing. I love how he's always enjoying himself all the time. Laughing about things, not getting upset over things that don't matter or turning them into big deals. Hah! I can't even imagine Slayer if he did any of those things!

Oh, that'd be the day....

Pfft, I crack my bones!

[Balder]

We all know the lines well. They've been all over just about every thread and IRC since the current conflict started;

"You'll be just as bad as we were"

"You're doing the same things we did"

"Karma is a bunch of hypocrites, they won't change anything"

After pondering this argument, I'm left with a simple question; What exactly is it they're complaining about?

If Karma is "just as bad" as they were; then we'll still have their beloved status quo. If Karma is doing the same things they did; then we've still got that good ol' status quo. And, if anyone hasn't noticed, CN's been infested with hypocrisy for a long, long time. I don't see that changing anytime soon, Karma or no Karma.

Remember the NPO war signatures during the initial phases of the FAN conflict? "If you crave war, why do you squeal when we bring it to you?" (or something to that effect). If in your minds Karma is just bringing more of the same... why are you squealing?

Man Coby, you've quit more times than I have.

On topic: I do agree with you but I can't really put the square of the blame on the Hegemony for it. In my opinion Karma would !@#$%* just as much if the roles were reversed.

[Mogar]

So OV, VE (2nd), GOD, R&R, RIA, Farkistan, IPA, ARES, Apocalypse, TOH, GR, Vanguard, Athens, MK, =LOST=, Fly, The Internationale, MOON, Orion, iFOK, Iunctus, SLCB, FCO, 1TF, GLOF, NV, RAD, IK, AO, AN, CSN, TTK, CRAP, The 57th Overlanders, CoIN, LEN, OTF, DT, DE, Nemesis, DF, FoB, the Immortals, TSC, LOUD, DiCE, Avalanche, FOUND, CCC, LSR, OA, Kronos, Argent, The Syndicate, Carpe Diem, Genesis, TFO, UCR, TDD, =WE=, Amaranth, LSF, The Brigade, IngSoc, STA, SSX, and above all else PPF were all a part of Pacifica's wars of aggression?

how many of those alliances are even over 6 months old?, the C&G alliances werent,

I Knew I Was Forgetting Something Mutual Defense and Optional Aggression Pact NPO & RIA Active

NPO - STA MDP Mutual Defense Pact NPO & STA Cancelled

6/25/08 MDoAP Fark+ NPO Canceled

and by NS, yeah a majority of Karma supported NPO's wars, TOP, Sparta, MHA, Fark, ODN, Polaris, Rok, VE, FOK, Grämlins(who, I admit, were certainly the most ballsy of the Karma alliances by leaving the hegemony before anyone) Monos Archien, RIA, TSO = ex MCXA gov so they did, but yeah, alot of smaller alliances, most of whom didnt exist 6 months ago, were certainly were who I was referring to, not the heavy hitters that supported NPO's domination until it looked like they might lose, You can say "BUT SOME OF THOSE ALLIANCES NEVER FOUGHT A WAR ALONGSIDE NPO, THEY DIDNT DO ANYTHING WRONG!?!?!?!!?!" when you sign a treaty with someone, you're obviously in support of them,and yes canceling it means you don't, my point is most of these alliances supported NPO for quite some time before "seeing the light" or more accurately "seeing the headlights of the bus that NPO was about to get hit by".

Hell yeah we were!

You did choose a good time to form.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Mogar

[Vol Navy]

So OV, VE (2nd), GOD, R&R, RIA, Farkistan, IPA, ARES, Apocalypse, TOH, GR, Vanguard, Athens, MK, =LOST=, Fly, The Internationale, MOON, Orion, iFOK, Iunctus, SLCB, FCO, 1TF, GLOF, NV, RAD, IK, AO, AN, CSN, TTK, CRAP, The 57th Overlanders, CoIN, LEN, OTF, DT, DE, Nemesis, DF, FoB, the Immortals, TSC, LOUD, DiCE, Avalanche, FOUND, CCC, LSR, OA, Kronos, Argent, The Syndicate, Carpe Diem, Genesis, TFO, UCR, TDD, =WE=, Amaranth, LSF, The Brigade, IngSoc, STA, SSX, and above all else PPF were all a part of Pacifica's wars of aggression?

The biggest NS sticks that Karma swung and many of their protectorates/allies this war are people who rolled with the Hegmony side as recently as the last big war vs Polaris and company. The same war that got Athens, LOST, MK, STA, GR etc and many of the others you listed so mad and led to the formation of the Karma coalition in large part.

VE, ROK, FARK, TOP, GRAM, MHA, Sparta, Umbrella, FCC, GOD, RIA, FOK, R&R, MOON, PC, etc are people who have fought on/supported both sides from last conflict to this conflict.

So yes, even some of the alliances you listed above as well as many others in Karma were part of aggressive actions on behalf of the Hegmony.

[anenu]

It is ridiculous to hold alliances by every decision made in the distant past. If you look back far enough many alliances that have fought along side the hegemony in this war fought on the opposite side in previous wars. For example TPF was in the Unjust Path unless I'm mistaken and now they are one of the last people fighting on the side of NPO. And FAN once rolled with NPO but have been fighting them for ages now (except recently with the peace and all) should we call them hypocrites for changing allies. You have to base your opinion of an alliance on what they are doing now and have done in the recent past as if you dig deep enough their will always be something they did that you disagree with.

[Vilien]

how many of those alliances are even over 6 months old?, the C&G alliances werent,

and by NS, yeah a majority of Karma supported NPO's wars, TOP, Sparta, MHA, Fark, ODN, Polaris, Rok, VE, FOK, Grämlins(who, I admit, were certainly the most ballsy of the Karma alliances by leaving the hegemony before anyone) Monos Archien, RIA, TSO = ex MCXA gov so they did, but yeah, alot of smaller alliances, most of whom didnt exist 6 months ago, were certainly were who I was referring to, not the heavy hitters that supported NPO's domination until it looked like they might lose, You can say "BUT SOME OF THOSE ALLIANCES NEVER FOUGHT A WAR ALONGSIDE NPO, THEY DIDNT DO ANYTHING WRONG!?!?!?!!?!" when you sign a treaty with someone, you're obviously in support of them,and yes canceling it means you don't, my point is most of these alliances supported NPO for quite some time before "seeing the light" or more accurately "seeing the headlights of the bus that NPO was about to get hit by".

You did choose a good time to form.

You are making a lot of ridiculous assumptions that are patently untrue. Primarily, you assume that it was obvious that NPO was going to be on the losing side in the next conflict. It wasn't. Alliances like the Grämlins and FOK left well before the sides had even materialized. Even in the lead up to NPO's declaration on OV, the sides looked relatively even and a "Karma" victory was not at all certain. This "bus that NPO was about to get hit by" was NPO's own doing, and mostly their fault in how they tried to start the war. And if you consider the current VE to have been an NPO crony, then you're intentionally ignoring your history. The same goes for Polaris and Fark.

VE, ROK, FARK, TOP, GRAM, MHA, Sparta, Umbrella, FCC, GOD, RIA, FOK, R&R, MOON, PC, etc are people who have fought on/supported both sides from last conflict to this conflict.

So yes, even some of the alliances you listed above as well as many others in Karma were part of aggressive actions on behalf of the Hegmony.

If you think that I list RoK, TOP, Gre, MHA, Sparta, Umbrella, FCC, and FOK, then you're wrong. You've also ignored the vast majority of the list. Congratulations.

[Mixoux]

It's a pretty big stretch to make a point out of several Karma alliances 'supporting' NPO's wars in the past. With the state of the treaty web the past 2 or so years, only a fraction of said alliances were directly allied to NPO/supported their cause; the rest were brought in through auxiliary treaties.

[Vol Navy]

It is ridiculous to hold alliances by every decision made in the distant past. If you look back far enough many alliances that have fought along side the hegemony in this war fought on the opposite side in previous wars. For example TPF was in the Unjust Path unless I'm mistaken and now they are one of the last people fighting on the side of NPO. And FAN once rolled with NPO but have been fighting them for ages now (except recently with the peace and all) should we call them hypocrites for changing allies. You have to base your opinion of an alliance on what they are doing now and have done in the recent past as if you dig deep enough their will always be something they did that you disagree with.

Now this one is pretty rich. I can agree with what you are saying but this side is constantly ridiculed and called out for things that happened years ago. As I stated earlier, we've been called out in recent threads for things that TF! did over 2 years ago. Yet many alliances that were directly allied to NPO or even in Q itself during the times that got everyone so angry are given a clean slate because they had "a change of heart" several of them as recently as the days before the war started.

It's like a gang that robs banks and finally gets caught, they come out after a robbery and are surrounded. Half the gang that participated in the robbery sneaks out the back and joins in with the people who have them surrounded and even go so far as to use the guns they got from their past robbery profits to gun down their fellow gang members. Then they get a big pat on the back from the side of the posse for helping bring that dirty, rotten gang to justice while their running mates are blown to bits.

You are making a lot of ridiculous assumptions that are patently untrue. Primarily, you assume that it was obvious that NPO was going to be on the losing side in the next conflict. It wasn't. Alliances like the Grämlins and FOK left well before the sides had even materialized. Even in the lead up to NPO's declaration on OV, the sides looked relatively even and a "Karma" victory was not at all certain. This "bus that NPO was about to get hit by" was NPO's own doing, and mostly their fault in how they tried to start the war. And if you consider the current VE to have been an NPO crony, then you're intentionally ignoring your history. The same goes for Polaris and Fark.

If you think that I list RoK, TOP, Gre, MHA, Sparta, Umbrella, FCC, and FOK, then you're wrong. You've also ignored the vast majority of the list. Congratulations.

No. I think that list I made pretty well covers the majority of the NS that made up Karma. I may have "ignored" some of the smaller alliances that have fought in this war. But they weren't going to enter this war or be a factor in this war without the major power players that were made up mostly of alliances who ran with the Hegmony when it was politically expedient to do so.

As for some alliances being NPO "cronies" or not, I can only go by very recent actions in regards to their support of the Hegmony through various treaties and actually rolling to war on the side of the Hegmony when it was politically expedient for them to do so. That includes VE, Fark, etc who were big players in the rolling of Polaris, MK. STA, GR, Athens, LOST, etc last year.

It's a pretty big stretch to make a point out of several Karma alliances 'supporting' NPO's wars in the past. With the state of the treaty web the past 2 or so years, only a fraction of said alliances were directly allied to NPO/supported their cause; the rest were brought in through auxiliary treaties.

No, I'm going to disagree with this one. I'll use the old standard, "you should know who your allies are running with before you sign treaties with them."

No one forced those alliances to sign those treaties or to keep them if their ally signed with Pacifica which made them defacto allies of NPO/Q.

Although many of the alliances I've posted about were directly allied to Pacifica during their rampaging years when literally half of Bob couldn't manage to aquire more than 100 infra or 50 tech for all Pacifica's war mongering.

Most of them for long periods of time through both Q and individual MADP or MDoAP treaties.

[Jipps]

The point of the those lines is to point out Karma's view that we are evil, not views of theirselves.

[anenu]

The point of the those lines is to point out Karma's view that we are evil, not views of theirselves.

the point was that the hegemony doesn't actually disagree when karma calls them evil they just say that karma is equally evil.

[Haflinger]

Angrator has been Vox for most of this. His self-identity needn't match his new alliance's.

Except that (at least according to Archon) Vox isn't part of Karma either.

[Mogar]

You are making a lot of ridiculous assumptions that are patently untrue. Primarily, you assume that it was obvious that NPO was going to be on the losing side in the next conflict. It wasn't. Alliances like the Grämlins and FOK left well before the sides had even materialized. Even in the lead up to NPO's declaration on OV, the sides looked relatively even and a "Karma" victory was not at all certain. This "bus that NPO was about to get hit by" was NPO's own doing, and mostly their fault in how they tried to start the war. And if you consider the current VE to have been an NPO crony, then you're intentionally ignoring your history. The same goes for Polaris and Fark.

It was obvious to me that Pacifica was going to get rolled(well, not actually rolled, but certainly weren't going to be winning) about 3 or 4 months ago, one of the things I disagreed with while I was a Pacifican ironically, was their retardedly low warchest requirements, I had over 100 days bills as my minimum, and when people were like "OH MAN WHY DO WE NEED SO MUCH MONEY IN OUR WARCHESTS, I'D RATHER BUY INFRA" I got annoyed, because I knew how quick you can burn through cash during wartime, and made numerous discussions in #npowned and with NPO FA leaders along the lines of "oh hay you need to actually be nice to your allies", when Grämlins left Q, it was obvious there was going to be something happening at some point in the future, had NPO not started this war when they did? maybe it never would have happened, but we'll never know now. Karma victory was certain the moment NPO declared war, I have spreadsheets of the war sides from about a month before this war actually occurred, and guess what? the numbers still weren't favorable for the hegemony, not to mention they had alliances like Polaris that I knew for a fact were not going to be fighting alongside NPO. Plus I believe I stated I respected Grämlins for leaving long before this war looked likely. they may have looked even to the public, but anyone with a little common sense could have made a cas for the hegemony losing. the current VE was an "NPO crony"(your term, not mine) until a few months ago when this war was supposed to happen. I dont recall saying that anyone was an NPO crony, especially not Polaris or Fark, but they were NPO's allies. and I agree it was their own doing, but they knew if they didn't strike first they'd get rolled anyway later down the road, and have even less allies to go to bat for them.

[Haflinger]

It is ridiculous to hold alliances by every decision made in the distant past.

Quite true.

However, people are still after NPO for what they did to NAAC.

Then again, karma is intertwined with samsara. There's no nirvana to be found in this direction.

[Haflinger]

And if you consider the current VE to have been an NPO crony, then you're intentionally ignoring your history.

So you admit then that Ardus' part in starting the War of the Coalition was not prompted in any way by the NPO?

Just so you know, I tend to agree. But it's certainly interesting that he helped start a massive war against Polaris because, as he said, Chickenzilla was spying on VE, by revealing information from VE's boards that non-members had access to, in light of the reaction by Karma to the CB that NPO cited at the start of this war.

[Vol Navy]

the point was that the hegemony doesn't actually disagree when karma calls them evil they just say that karma is equally evil.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a good portion of the NS that allowed Karma to wage this war is literally the Hegemony you claim to be evil.

They aren't like them, they aren't equal to them, they are them.

[anenu]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a good portion of the NS that allowed Karma to wage this war is literally the Hegemony you claim to be evil.

They aren't like them, they aren't equal to them, they are them.

Even saying that a large portion of Karma was/is like the hegemony alliance doesn't make Karma like the hegemony because

1. If they really were up their in the hegemony they wouldn't have left the only ones that would have benifited from leaving would have been those that were simply cronies for the hegemony not full blooded members as they would be better served keeping the power structure as it was.

2. Many off the alliance that people claim were hegemony were either loosly tied to NPO or not tied to them at all but were simply following treaties that found them on the hegemony side in previous war.

3. Calling Karma hegemony because it has old hegemony alliances in it is like calling Q a UJP remake because they both contained TPF.

[Mogar]

Even saying that a large portion of Karma was/is like the hegemony alliance doesn't make Karma like the hegemony because

1. If they really were up their in the hegemony they wouldn't have left the only ones that would have benifited from leaving would have been those that were simply cronies for the hegemony not full blooded members as they would be better served keeping the power structure as it was.

2. Many off the alliance that people claim were hegemony were either loosly tied to NPO or not tied to them at all but were simply following treaties that found them on the hegemony side in previous war.

3. Calling Karma hegemony because it has old hegemony alliances in it is like calling Q a UJP remake because they both contained TPF.

1) those that benefited from leaving are the ones who left in the week before the war, because then they didnt lose their pixels.

2) as I've previously stated, they were heavily allied to NPO and half of them were actually Q members, they supported the hegemony for quite some time, whether you want to admit it or not.

3) 1 alliance != a half dozen.

[Thierra]

3. Calling Karma hegemony because it has old hegemony alliances in it is like calling Q a UJP remake because they both contained TPF.

I tend to agree with him, however. At least on this point. The degree to which alliance leadership changes means that the dynamic of the alliance as far as interalliance politics is concerned is different from war to war.

How else do you explain GGA opposing NPO in GWI, VE siding with NPO in GWIII, or the division of the Orders? No matter what blocs alliances are in or were in, the rapid pace at which alliance relations changes from month to month means that the past, present, and future of coalitions like Karma and Hegemony are bound to cross in a number of interesting ways.

The fact that Karma is adopting some similar strategies to Hegemony alliances, and the fact at in other cases they differ greatly, is in part a sign of this. Today, Karma and Hegemony overlap simply because the context of this war, the treaty-web, and the effect of bandwagonning with potential allies was too much to keep each side on their own turf without any switches.

[Gen Lee]

Really every conflict/disagreement in CN boils down to a difference in the perception of the same event.

[Heyman]

Really every conflict/disagreement in CN boils down to a difference in the perception of the same event.

Welcome to hindsight! Enjoy your stay. Lodgings include 10% of your logic for each night, and your 5% of your sanity for additional room service.

Pool use not included.

[Aurion]

snip

Propaganda is rarely burdened with an overabundance of fact.

[anenu]

1) those that benefited from leaving are the ones who left in the week before the war, because then they didnt lose their pixels.

2) as I've previously stated, they were heavily allied to NPO and half of them were actually Q members, they supported the hegemony for quite some time, whether you want to admit it or not.

3) 1 alliance != a half dozen.

1. Those that were really part of the hegemony not simply orbiting it would have benefited from things staying the same. As they were already in charge what reason would they have for leaving? And if they didn't leave then this war would have been a curbstomp in the other direction. The only reasons to leave was that they no longer believed in the hegemony/NPO or they wanted to help destroy it so they could replace it. Only time will tell who was who

2. Karma is currently made up of 9,494 nations with a total NS of 203,864,780 and has over 35,000 nukes (as per wiki page). By your statement Q once had 4,000 nations, 100,000,000 NS and 16,000 nukes without IRON, NPO, MXCA, TPF or any other Q alliance who fought on the hegemony side.

3. Point being that alliances change. Being on the same side as some people who were former hegemony doesn't make you like the hegemony any more then being allied to TPF made NPO like \m/