Don't Worry, Be Happy

[Cobalt]

We all know the lines well. They've been all over just about every thread and IRC since the current conflict started;

"You'll be just as bad as we were"

"You're doing the same things we did"

"Karma is a bunch of hypocrites, they won't change anything"

After pondering this argument, I'm left with a simple question; What exactly is it they're complaining about?

If Karma is "just as bad" as they were; then we'll still have their beloved status quo. If Karma is doing the same things they did; then we've still got that good ol' status quo. And, if anyone hasn't noticed, CN's been infested with hypocrisy for a long, long time. I don't see that changing anytime soon, Karma or no Karma.

Remember the NPO war signatures during the initial phases of the FAN conflict? "If you crave war, why do you squeal when we bring it to you?" (or something to that effect). If in your minds Karma is just bringing more of the same... why are you squealing?

[Poobah]

Please stop using logic.

Thanks.

[Heracles the Great]

Poobah - you always know how to make me laugh

Cobalt - I forgot about that good ol' quote from the NPO - made me laugh

[Cobalt]

Please stop using logic.

Thanks.

I'm trying, its such a terrible affliction

[Raphael Beau Pre]

After pondering this argument, I'm left with a simple question; What exactly is it they're complaining about?

Because they rather liked being on top of the pile?

[Electron Sponge]

When it comes right down to it, what they're saying is "oww this shoe is on the other foot and it doesn't fit so well".

[Mogar]

^or, bawww we want to be the ones in power, not you guys.

[Vol Navy]

I won't say "as bad" as NPO/Q were, I'll say "the same" as NPO/Q were.

Mainly because a good portion of the NS lined up on the Karma side of things are members of the hated Hegmony who "found the light" so to speak when all this Karma talk got rolling a few months ago.

We will see if many of those old leopards have truly changed their spots, once the power blocs of the post war world settle into place we'll see if there is a return to aggressive diplomacy that has been used on Bob for years now by many of those alliances. I've saw hints of it as Karma's goals are accomplished and the foundation for Karma breaks apart as this war winds down.

I do wonder what will be the new rallying point in this new post-Karma world. Hatred of the NPO is still strong now but post war it will be quickly fading from fashion. Bob will always have that polarizing alliance that people who aren't even in contact with will hate just because of what they read on here. It was both Orders, then after the Polar rolling it was was just NPO/Q/1V. Now who is left to hate? I'm sure some alliance or bloc will quickly become the new bad guy. The group that can come up with the best propaganda to paint the other side in a poor light will determine that.

The main point of contention from me during the lead up to and fighting of this conflict is that we have been talked down to and villified for weeks by those alliances who were allies during the height of the Hegmony. Those who backed the actions, fought the wars, gave aid and used their influence to further theirs and the Q agenda. Who reaped the benifit from it but bailed when their particular goals were accomplished or as late as when the angry mob showed up at the gates.

I see many alliances with legit gripes, the FAN's and Mushroom Kingdom's of the world for example.

The former Hegmony and others who rolled with NPO/Q over the last year or so, well, they still complain and rail against NPO/Q but they really are just trying to blend in with the crowd. I guess hoping their active participation in Q/hegmony actions will be forgotten. Surprisingly, this has worked pretty well for them so far and with the way post-Karma Bob is going to look, no one will be able to rise against many of them for a long long time after this. They've played it smart I guess as they managed to reap the rewards of being on both sides when it benifitted them the most to be on those sides.

All in all Bob will be very interesting over the coming months. I suspect this won't be the only major conflict in 2009 and that some people fighting on the Karma side will find themselves being ground down by one or more of the new power blocs that they've fought along side of in this war.

[Vilien]

^or, bawww we want to be the ones in power, not you guys.

Well, it sure as hell beats getting stomped every six months for breathing someone else's air.

[anenu]

I won't say "as bad" as NPO/Q were, I'll say "the same" as NPO/Q were.

Mainly because a good portion of the NS lined up on the Karma side of things are members of the hated Hegmony who "found the light" so to speak when all this Karma talk got rolling a few months ago.

We will see if many of those old leopards have truly changed their spots, once the power blocs of the post war world settle into place we'll see if there is a return to aggressive diplomacy that has been used on Bob for years now by many of those alliances. I've saw hints of it as Karma's goals are accomplished and the foundation for Karma breaks apart as this war winds down.

I do wonder what will be the new rallying point in this new post-Karma world. Hatred of the NPO is still strong now but post war it will be quickly fading from fashion. Bob will always have that polarizing alliance that people who aren't even in contact with will hate just because of what they read on here. It was both Orders, then after the Polar rolling it was was just NPO/Q/1V. Now who is left to hate? I'm sure some alliance or bloc will quickly become the new bad guy. The group that can come up with the best propaganda to paint the other side in a poor light will determine that.

The main point of contention from me during the lead up to and fighting of this conflict is that we have been talked down to and villified for weeks by those alliances who were allies during the height of the Hegmony. Those who backed the actions, fought the wars, gave aid and used their influence to further theirs and the Q agenda. Who reaped the benifit from it but bailed when their particular goals were accomplished or as late as when the angry mob showed up at the gates.

I see many alliances with legit gripes, the FAN's and Mushroom Kingdom's of the world for example.

The former Hegmony and others who rolled with NPO/Q over the last year or so, well, they still complain and rail against NPO/Q but they really are just trying to blend in with the crowd. I guess hoping their active participation in Q/hegmony actions will be forgotten. Surprisingly, this has worked pretty well for them so far and with the way post-Karma Bob is going to look, no one will be able to rise against many of them for a long long time after this. They've played it smart I guess as they managed to reap the rewards of being on both sides when it benifitted them the most to be on those sides.

All in all Bob will be very interesting over the coming months. I suspect this won't be the only major conflict in 2009 and that some people fighting on the Karma side will find themselves being ground down by one or more of the new power blocs that they've fought along side of in this war.

I don't actually think that anyone believe that the death of NPO will usher in an area of peace. What we are hoping for is that certain practices such as PZI or EZI will die out and people won't be complete !@#$%s about things anymore. As I've mentioned before a war between gentlemen can be bloody but at least the innocent are spared.

[Mogar]

Well, it sure as hell beats getting stomped every six months for breathing someone else's air.

You mean basically like The League did for GW2 and GW3? Most of the alliances that were around back then, are currently part of Karma, and fought on NPO's side, GATO, Legion, LoSS, ODN are the only 4 that still exist from the GW2 era's southern web. so I'm with Vol Navy on this, claiming moral high ground is retarded, and on almost anyone if you go far enough back into the past, you have some dirty laundry too.

[Angrator]

Excellent post. Most of their comments attempt to bring Karma down to their level. Thus, they implicitly recognize Karma's superiority. They realize we are at least a little better than they. This is practically true because you don't hear any arguments from them arguing that Karma is worse. The Karma side argues that Hegemony side is far worse, but the Hegemony side only argues that they are the same. Thus, the Hegemony implicitly recognizes Karma's moral high superiority.

For this I would prefer that they said thank you, and simply went on their way.

[Vilien]

You mean basically like The League did for GW2 and GW3? Most of the alliances that were around back then, are currently part of Karma, and fought on NPO's side, GATO, Legion, LoSS, ODN are the only 4 that still exist from the GW2 era's southern web. so I'm with Vol Navy on this, claiming moral high ground is retarded, and on almost anyone if you go far enough back into the past, you have some dirty laundry too.

I highly doubt that those of us from the old NAAC have dirty laundry anywhere close to the !@#$%^&* that the NPO has pulled. The fact that some of those on Karma's side may or may not have some dirty laundry of their own does not invalidate their main argument.

[Mogar]

I highly doubt that those of us from the old NAAC have dirty laundry anywhere close to the !@#$%^&* that the NPO has pulled. The fact that some of those on Karma's side may or may not have some dirty laundry of their own does not invalidate their main argument.

Point is the majority of Karma has explicitly helped NPO's wars of agression previously, so the "we're better than you are" argument is stupid, it's more along the lines of "we jumped ship faster than you did".

[ChairmanHal]

I have a video for you.

[Vol Navy]

I don't actually think that anyone believe that the death of NPO will usher in an area of peace. What we are hoping for is that certain practices such as PZI or EZI will die out and people won't be complete !@#$%s about things anymore. As I've mentioned before a war between gentlemen can be bloody but at least the innocent are spared.

I'm certain this won't be an era of peace. Q era was the era of relative peace and stability on Bob.

As to EZI/PZI, I can agree with that. Will it stop? I seriously doubt every alliance in the game will be willing to give it up but many will and have already. Some won't and will bristle at people trying to impose their ideals on what they see as their soverign right as an alliance. Just like tech raiding.

People will still be "!@#$%s" because that's human nature. I've saw Karma vs Karma !@#$%ry in many threads over the past few weeks already. I have no reason not to expect more of the same in the post war time. Especially with the common goal of destroying NPO/Q accomplished.

As far as the innocent being spared, as long as there is a treaty web people who really had little or nothing to do with conflicts will be pulled into them. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Those same conflicts will create bad blood for many in those "innocent" alliances that will be carried for years even to new alliances because many people on here will not forgive or forget past actions. In the last month I've actually saw people calling mhawk to task for things that happened when TF! existed. I'm not even sure mhawk had a nation at that point. I am over 700 days old and I didn't. That's how long grudges are held by many on here.

[Vol Navy]

Excellent post. Most of their comments attempt to bring Karma down to their level. Thus, they implicitly recognize Karma's superiority. They realize we are at least a little better than they. This is practically true because you don't hear any arguments from them arguing that Karma is worse. The Karma side argues that Hegemony side is far worse, but the Hegemony side only argues that they are the same. Thus, the Hegemony implicitly recognizes Karma's moral high superiority.

For this I would prefer that they said thank you, and simply went on their way.

I honestly didn't know NSO was part of Karma. I actually thought Ivan specifically stated that you didn't consider yourself part of Karma at all.

[enderland]

Excellent post. Most of their comments attempt to bring Karma down to their level. Thus, they implicitly recognize Karma's superiority. They realize we are at least a little better than they. This is practically true because you don't hear any arguments from them arguing that Karma is worse. The Karma side argues that Hegemony side is far worse, but the Hegemony side only argues that they are the same. Thus, the Hegemony implicitly recognizes Karma's moral high superiority.

For this I would prefer that they said thank you, and simply went on their way.

Good thing that NSO has been quite clear in not being part of Karma.

[Vilien]

Point is the majority of Karma has explicitly helped NPO's wars of agression previously, so the "we're better than you are" argument is stupid, it's more along the lines of "we jumped ship faster than you did".

Yeah, but I didn't.

[bzelger]

Angrator has been Vox for most of this. His self-identity needn't match his new alliance's.

[Mogar]

Yeah, but I didn't.

Ok, not saying you did, just the majority of Karma.

[Master Hakai]

People are getting SO MAD and FURIOUS now not because things are going to be different or the same or anything.

It's because they got so comfortable being able to bully other people around that they forgot what it's like to not do that. And now they're going to be forced to remember. And they don't like that.

TPF AND NPO.

At any rate, funny point you bring up. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I hope humor and fun is able to make its comeback in CN under the new authorities (whomever they may be).

[Mozaffar]

I won't say "as bad" as NPO/Q were, I'll say "the same" as NPO/Q were.

Mainly because a good portion of the NS lined up on the Karma side of things are members of the hated Hegmony who "found the light" so to speak when all this Karma talk got rolling a few months ago.

And I'm glad they did, without them the Hegemony would never have fallen and this would have been another noCB war, with the same consequences. Which is why it's not surprising (addressing your remark later on in this post) that their past affiliations have not been such a huge problem.

Regardless the past affiliations of a member's alliance do not change the morality of Karma and they do not change the wrongdoings of the Hegemony.

We will see if many of those old leopards have truly changed their spots, once the power blocs of the post war world settle into place we'll see if there is a return to aggressive diplomacy that has been used on Bob for years now by many of those alliances. I've saw hints of it as Karma's goals are accomplished and the foundation for Karma breaks apart as this war winds down.

No doubt that aggressive diplomacy will continue, it will truly depend on the alliance. I expect especially the former Hegemony alliances to have problems adjusting to the new geopolitical realities and persist in their old attitudes. What is much, much more important is that there is no longer one bloc dictating the way things are going in Planet Bob. Karma has always been a one-time effort, I'm no insider but expect new blocs such as Frostbite to appear in the coming weeks, perhaps in some cases even pairing a few alliances from both sides together.

I do wonder what will be the new rallying point in this new post-Karma world. Hatred of the NPO is still strong now but post war it will be quickly fading from fashion. Bob will always have that polarizing alliance that people who aren't even in contact with will hate just because of what they read on here. It was both Orders, then after the Polar rolling it was was just NPO/Q/1V. Now who is left to hate? I'm sure some alliance or bloc will quickly become the new bad guy. The group that can come up with the best propaganda to paint the other side in a poor light will determine that.

For a while you might not have such a thing, one alliance or bloc being hated. I expect that you'll have a larger amount of smaller rivalries between different alliances and blocs at least for some time until a new Hegemony could arise (which could take some time).

All in all Bob will be very interesting over the coming months. I suspect this won't be the only major conflict in 2009 and that some people fighting on the Karma side will find themselves being ground down by one or more of the new power blocs that they've fought along side of in this war.

I agree with you here, you'll see a whole mash-up of international relations. I see NPO becoming less interventionist as they did after GPW, while the rest of Planet Bob goes into multiple smaller wars, not worthy of being a Great War but still being quite interesting.

[anenu]

I'm certain this won't be an era of peace. Q era was the era of relative peace and stability on Bob.

As to EZI/PZI, I can agree with that. Will it stop? I seriously doubt every alliance in the game will be willing to give it up but many will and have already. Some won't and will bristle at people trying to impose their ideals on what they see as their soverign right as an alliance. Just like tech raiding.

People will still be "!@#$%s" because that's human nature. I've saw Karma vs Karma !@#$%ry in many threads over the past few weeks already. I have no reason not to expect more of the same in the post war time. Especially with the common goal of destroying NPO/Q accomplished.

As far as the innocent being spared, as long as there is a treaty web people who really had little or nothing to do with conflicts will be pulled into them. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Those same conflicts will create bad blood for many in those "innocent" alliances that will be carried for years even to new alliances because many people on here will not forgive or forget past actions. In the last month I've actually saw people calling mhawk to task for things that happened when TF! existed. I'm not even sure mhawk had a nation at that point. I am over 700 days old and I didn't. That's how long grudges are held by many on here.

If it becomes politically unacceptable to use EZI or PZI (which it is getting close to if not already) its use will drastically fall.

Their will always be !@#$%s but they don't have to be at the same level as other !@#$%s.

By innocents i don't mean people who sign MDPs with alliances they agree to the possibility of war. I mean people who get declared on by larger alliances when the larger alliance doesn't have a valid CB. This can be seen before the NoCB war when alliances allied to NpO were getting slowly picked off or the lack of a good CB in both the NoCB war or in my view NPO's CB against OV in this war.

Some people have reasons valid reason to hold grudges others need to learn to let things go and view an alliance or person on how they behave now rather then how they behaved in the distant past.

[Vilien]

Ok, not saying you did, just the majority of Karma.

So OV, VE (2nd), GOD, R&R, RIA, Farkistan, IPA, ARES, Apocalypse, TOH, GR, Vanguard, Athens, MK, =LOST=, Fly, The Internationale, MOON, Orion, iFOK, Iunctus, SLCB, FCO, 1TF, GLOF, NV, RAD, IK, AO, AN, CSN, TTK, CRAP, The 57th Overlanders, CoIN, LEN, OTF, DT, DE, Nemesis, DF, FoB, the Immortals, TSC, LOUD, DiCE, Avalanche, FOUND, CCC, LSR, OA, Kronos, Argent, The Syndicate, Carpe Diem, Genesis, TFO, UCR, TDD, =WE=, Amaranth, LSF, The Brigade, IngSoc, STA, SSX, and above all else PPF were all a part of Pacifica's wars of aggression?