Why what went around is not coming around

[Kevin Cash]

Wow you really are skilled at taking half a sentence I wrote

i already said i agreed that that part of what you wrote was accurate, i dont know what the issue here is

Karma complained about NPO attacking during peace talks; it matters not if it was intentional or not because both OV and the mediator of the talks, TOP, recognized that talks were very much still commencing.

ooh, bold, italics, and underlined... its almost like you think this is a really important point youre trying to make. ill bite.

why is it up to ov/top exclusively to decide if/when talks have ended, and furthermore, why was there a span of forty minutes (two thirds of an hour) during which neither ov nor top attempted to restore communications with any ranking member of npo? did they just decide that 'oh well moo lost his internet i guess well pick this up tomorrow?' that seems like a rather stupid idea as npo was growing noticeably impatient as the logs carried on.

Once again, if you would do some prior research once in a while that isn't just CN wiki

contrary to popular karmite thought, war propaganda does not count as research.

you would notice that NPO admitted to accepting intel. Since you so love to hark on a single word implying a world of information, I would argue that accepting means NPO was given such information from a specific source. If they didn't know who it was, why were they so intent on protecting that fact during talks? Why would they not tell Karma they heard the leak from random rumors if it would avoid a war. What benefit would NPO gain from OV believing there was a singular source of leaking, besides everyone thinking that NPO spies. Oh yeah! That would work out well! Whatever is true, we'll never know for sure.

that your side continues to claim npo accepting intel is of any real relevance amuses me in ways i cannot describe. you continue to ignore the wild differences between passively accepting intel that concerns ones security, and actively seeking intel to undermine the military tactics of an alliance.

furthermore, to argue that npo should have 'been smarter than that' is amusing in that they already overlooked a number of obvious and significant details, making a number of major screw-ups that gave the karmites all the fuel they needed to spin to their hearts content.

So for you to assume you are the "bearer of truth" is laughable at best.

i have made no such claim, perhaps it is you who believes this?

[Cataduanes]

popular karmite thought

wtf is that??? i was not aware Karma held a general ideology that would foster such a thing as 'popular karmite thought', me thinks your clutching at straws mate, someof us just want to see 1V burn

[Solidus117]

someof us just want to see 1V burn

How graphically noble, Cataduanes.

[Cataduanes]

How graphically noble, Cataduanes.

I never claimed to be noble dear boy

[Caliph]

i already said i agreed that that part of what you wrote was accurate, i dont know what the issue here is

why is it up to ov/top exclusively to decide if/when talks have ended, and furthermore, why was there a span of forty minutes (two thirds of an hour) during which neither ov nor top attempted to restore communications with any ranking member of npo? did they just decide that 'oh well moo lost his internet i guess well pick this up tomorrow?' that seems like a rather stupid idea as npo was growing noticeably impatient as the logs carried on.

Why is it OV/TOP who has to contact NPO? Why didn't NPO have a contingency plan as to who has authority to carry on negotiations in the scenario that Moo's internet craps out? They handled that situation in the peace talks with Karma before the war broke out, so why not then?

Regardless of who should have contacted who, it was obvious that the peace negotiations were not over, however the NPO decided to attack anyway, and now they find that the treaty web has activated itself in such a way that paints this as a beatdown against Pacifican agression.

contrary to popular karmite thought, war propaganda does not count as research.

So Hegemony propoganda counts as research but "Karma" propoganda doesn't?

Face it kid, both sides use propoganda extensively, getting prissy about one side doing it but fully supporting the other side in doing it weakens your case and your credibility.

that your side continues to claim npo accepting intel is of any real relevance amuses me in ways i cannot describe. you continue to ignore the wild differences between passively accepting intel that concerns ones security, and actively seeking intel to undermine the military tactics of an alliance.

Fact: the NPO knew that OV had screenies, or was going to receive screenies.

The only way the NPO could have known is one of the following:

1: An OV member told the NPO about them, and NPO accepted this information gladly.

2: NPO spies figured out about it.

Now, in both of those two scenarios, the NPO has used both of these reasons to classify such behavior, when performed against the NPO, as "spy attacks". Therefore, using the NPO's own logic, the NPO spied on OV. You'll forgive me if I do see a pattern with the NPO's multitude of DOW's for "spying".

furthermore, to argue that npo should have 'been smarter than that' is amusing in that they already overlooked a number of obvious and significant details, making a number of major screw-ups that gave the karmites all the fuel they needed to spin to their hearts content.

So you are mad because "Karma" alliances are spinning the situation to their own advantage? How is that any different than what the NPO and the Hegemony has done for the past 2 years? You come across as anti Karma, are you also anti Hegemony? If you are not anti Hegemony, you are a hypocrit for speaking out against only Karma for such behavior that is and has been prevelant amongst the "Hegemony" alliances.

[Matthew Conrad]

i already said i agreed that that part of what you wrote was accurate, i dont know what the issue here is

ooh, bold, italics, and underlined... its almost like you think this is a really important point youre trying to make. ill bite.

why is it up to ov/top exclusively to decide if/when talks have ended, and furthermore, why was there a span of forty minutes (two thirds of an hour) during which neither ov nor top attempted to restore communications with any ranking member of npo? did they just decide that 'oh well moo lost his internet i guess well pick this up tomorrow?' that seems like a rather stupid idea as npo was growing noticeably impatient as the logs carried on.

contrary to popular karmite thought, war propaganda does not count as research.

that your side continues to claim npo accepting intel is of any real relevance amuses me in ways i cannot describe. you continue to ignore the wild differences between passively accepting intel that concerns ones security, and actively seeking intel to undermine the military tactics of an alliance.

furthermore, to argue that npo should have 'been smarter than that' is amusing in that they already overlooked a number of obvious and significant details, making a number of major screw-ups that gave the karmites all the fuel they needed to spin to their hearts content.

i have made no such claim, perhaps it is you who believes this?

Its funny that you're one of the biggest hypocrites I've had to pleasure of proving wrong recently. Unless you've never been or heard of peace talks, which you probably haven't, you will notice one of the points of even having a mediator is that this person clears up confusion and generally runs the talks. If the person running the talks doesn't believe its over, NPO can, by all accounts, call it done with an odd dropped internet connection and call it a war right? Oh wait! By your standards, it doesn't matter what happens because Karma doesn't have inherent rights since Kevin Cash, Professional Troll comes to the rescue!

Hey! Does anyone in here remember a rather boring poster who kept posting in a thread, with every post bolding a phrase over and over and over and over (I think you get the point) again. Now this particular fellow must have a very short, simple memory because I believe he is now trying to make fun of me for bolding! How ironic, he even italicized in this post right here. What's amusing is you thinking you are clever. Before you ever try to criticize the structure of my post, maybe you should meet my friend capitalization. I hear he makes you look a lot less like... well... to put it in a term you used previously, a 2nd grader.

Also, there is no proof that sethb actively sought any intel at all. The person said "that screenshot" for a variety to possibilities (such as mentioning it earlier for reference). Like you said, there's no logs of NPO saying "hey we were asking around for intel" so they couldn't have been searching could they? Well, then I guess by those standards sethb sure as hell wasn't actively searching for it.

Before you come here criticizing anyone, Karma or Hegemony, why don't you actually take part in this conflict instead of sitting on a 6 infra nation doing nothing?

[Tulafaras]

i can't believe we are arguing this point again....

Any way, since i am too lazy to look for the past posts on this point let me repeat what i and other said there:

Standard mode of operation for negotiations on IRC:

Person A and person B meet in a room, sometimes with mediator C added.

In 2 different channels the people from alliance A and B sit with their negotiator and discuss proposals by the other side in peace, without giving away any information. Sometimes more than one person represents an alliance, but usually you either let one guy talk or you even have only one guy in the channel.

Now when person A disconnects one of 3 things usually happens:

1) Alliance A sends another negotiator

2) Person A reconnects and rejoins the channel where the negotiations are going on

3) Alliance A sends a message that talks are postponed since the guy who is offline has all the power.

Those would be the standard responses to such a situation (which is rather common).

What did Moo do? He did one of 3 things:

1) he had left instructions that if he disced they were to declare war (in which case the negotiations were not done in good faith).

2) he rejoined their internal channel (but not the negotiation channel) and ordered an attack.

3) someone from Pacifica decided to assume a lot (remember that saying about making an $@! out of you and me?) and declared war without orders (very very very very very unlikely).

Since no one from the NPO has stepped forward and accepted responsibility for option 3, we are left only with option 1 and 2. So please could you finally accept that this chain of events was idiotic on their side and shut the hell up?

[Andrewbw]

-snip-

Just stop replying to him Matt, it's not worth it at all.

[Kevin Cash]

Its funny that you're one of the biggest hypocrites I've had to pleasure of proving wrong recently. Unless you've never been or heard of peace talks, which you probably haven't, you will notice one of the points of even having a mediator is that this person clears up confusion and generally runs the talks. If the person running the talks doesn't believe its over, NPO can, by all accounts, call it done with an odd dropped internet connection and call it a war right? Oh wait! By your standards, it doesn't matter what happens because Karma doesn't have inherent rights since Kevin Cash, Professional Troll comes to the rescue!

Hey! Does anyone in here remember a rather boring poster who kept posting in a thread, with every post bolding a phrase over and over and over and over (I think you get the point) again. Now this particular fellow must have a very short, simple memory because I believe he is now trying to make fun of me for bolding! How ironic, he even italicized in this post right here. What's amusing is you thinking you are clever. Before you ever try to criticize the structure of my post, maybe you should meet my friend capitalization. I hear he makes you look a lot less like... well... to put it in a term you used previously, a 2nd grader.

Also, there is no proof that sethb actively sought any intel at all. The person said "that screenshot" for a variety to possibilities (such as mentioning it earlier for reference). Like you said, there's no logs of NPO saying "hey we were asking around for intel" so they couldn't have been searching could they? Well, then I guess by those standards sethb sure as hell wasn't actively searching for it.

Before you come here criticizing anyone, Karma or Hegemony, why don't you actually take part in this conflict instead of sitting on a 6 infra nation doing nothing?

you do realize you dodged all of my points with ad-hominems, correct?

-why did neither top nor ov contact any ranking member of the npo in the 40 minutes between the abrupt and unexpected disconnection event and the start of the war? this is a very large time frame. please answer this question directly.

-why would sethb hand over the most incriminating logs when he could hand over a snippet he thought would put him in a good light? he was trying to make it look like blackstone just came up one day and gave him a screenshot, trying to pretend that relations did not exist between them.

-telling me to shut up and fight you? sounds a lot like what npo and friends used to say. why, dont like being put on the spot?

[HellAngel]

you do realize you dodged all of my points with ad-hominems, correct?

-why did neither top nor ov contact any ranking member of the npo in the 40 minutes between the abrupt and unexpected disconnection event and the start of the war? this is a very large time frame. please answer this question directly.

-why would sethb hand over the most incriminating logs when he could hand over a snippet he thought would put him in a good light? he was trying to make it look like blackstone just came up one day and gave him a screenshot, trying to pretend that relations did not exist between them.

-telling me to shut up and fight you? sounds a lot like what npo and friends used to say. why, dont like being put on the spot?

1. You probably dont expect the other party to freaking declare war in the meantime. Usually, negotiations can go on for days. NPO made everyone in Q hold back on Polar for two months and they cant even hold back for a damn day.

2. Probably. Still, the CB was the one screenshot he accepted. Thats a pretty weak CB in my eyes. Hence the war.

Edited May 7, 2009 by HellAngel

[Mogar]

NPO made everyone in Q hold back on Polar for two months and they cant even hold back for a damn day.

Your peace discussions lasted at least 3 days.

[Teriethien]

you do realize you dodged all of my points with ad-hominems, correct?

-why did neither top nor ov contact any ranking member of the npo in the 40 minutes between the abrupt and unexpected disconnection event and the start of the war? this is a very large time frame. please answer this question directly.

-why would sethb hand over the most incriminating logs when he could hand over a snippet he thought would put him in a good light? he was trying to make it look like blackstone just came up one day and gave him a screenshot, trying to pretend that relations did not exist between them.

-telling me to shut up and fight you? sounds a lot like what npo and friends used to say. why, dont like being put on the spot?

Why don't you scroll up and read?

[HellAngel]

Your peace discussions lasted at least 3 days.

meh, i should have written "another day". Doesnt invalidate the point though.

[Matthew Conrad]

Just stop replying to him Matt, it's not worth it at all.

You're right, he's too dense to understand when I go down the list and answer every single one of his points anyways. It's like arguing with a wall.

Edit: How am I attacking your character or being prejudice by pointing out your obviously, by the facts hypocrisy? I doubt you even understand what ad hominid is considering you use that word to respond to my posts when you can't think of an adequate counterargument. Learn to understand the definition of a word before you go around spouting it over other post.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[WildeKaard]

So all those who think that "Karma" is anything like that which it fights against you need to examine the context. Whereas NPO has fomented many wars against others out of greed and hate, the current war against it is one of legitimate self defense. No, not all of the wars that NPO has fought were illegitimate, but then its not as though NPO only schemed and trifled once, realized its mistake, apologized, and improved itself. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a dozen times, I must be planet bob reacting to NPO aggression... NPO getting checked is long over due and don't pretend that it doesn't deserve it or that Karma is anything like NPO.

The scholars of the victors always get the opportunity to write the history books how they see fit.

[Joe Izuzu]

And yet the fact remains (as Moo implied with his infamous [00:00] quote) that the only way this information could have been retrieved was through the same activities that sethb may have been engaged in. Counter-offers to sethb being attacked was simply the equivalent reaction on the person who "spied to catch a spy" (for simplicity's sake)

The point is that whatever sethb did, NPO admitted they accepted spied/leaked information from another source about the incident. They learned about "possible" spying by implementing the same method.

This argument has been posited quite a bit, but I do not agree with the logic. There is a distinct difference between offensive espionage and defensive counterintelligence. A mafia mole in a police department that feeds info to the mafia is a criminal, while a confidential informant within the mafia that gives info to the police that identifies the mole is not (at least not in regards to the passing along of information). An employee of a company that passes on information to a competitor is a spy, but an employee of the offending company that reveals the illicit activity to the damaged company is not a spy, but rather a whistleblower. While the actions of both are similar in effect, they are completely opposite in terms of morality and legality.

Moreover, it is my understanding that the intel NPO had was received from an (unidentified?) ally, not as a result of any direct espionage conducted by NPO. We don't have blue sky on this, since there has not been complete disclosure of all the facts, the exact sequence of events, or which ally provided the information to NPO, but there is no evidence whatsoever that NPO engaged in active espionage against OV. If I have missed a post or log dump that proves otherwise, please enlighten me.

So how do you know that sethb went to demeanor and requested the intel? How do you know that demeanor didn't go to sethb and offer once he got it? You don't. Sethb isn't a "spy" unless he's in NPO and/or has a multi in NPO, and there's no proof of that....

Demeanor: "Hey I probably gots intel on NPO in a few days. You wants a peep at it?"

sethb: "sure."

later...

Demeanor: "I have THAT [oooooooh] screenie FOR YOU [oooooh]."

...Keep in mind sethb, no matter how you want to spin it, never actually spied on NPO himself

As I stated in the my earlier post, at the time that sethb accepted the SS, he had full knowledge of what it was. Whether he recruited Demeanor or Demeanor came to him is irrelevant. Once he had prior knowledge that Demeanor was going to deliver intel concerning NPO's military guidelines, he became a spy.

Let's define the terms here.

spy: verb To engage in espionage.

spy: noun someone who engages in espionage

espionage: noun the use of spies, or the practice of spying, for the purpose of obtaining information about the plans, activities, capabilities, or resources of a competitor or enemy.

As you can see, sethb clearly qualifies as a spy. Whether you are the insertion agent, mole, courier or control, you are still a spy. Therefore your argument that sethb isn't a spy unless he was the actual mole is invalid. In the BV (before Vox) age of CN, both Demeanor and sethb would have been castigated and severely punished and the community as a whole would have applauded their punishment, since spying was almost universally considered to be the one mortal sin that could be committed on Planet Bob. Nowadays not so much. I guess that is considered to be progress.

It was in no way clear sethb was actively seeking spied intel. You take the word "that" from a short section of a log dump and get the fact that he was actively pursuing intelligence? One would have to be delusional and unbelievably dense to automatically assume that to be rock solid proof of active spying.

Actually, someone would have to be delusional to believe that sethb did not have prior knowledge of what he was receiving and, as a ranking member of OV government, did not have a clear understanding that accepting the illicit SS was an overt act of espionage. Unless, of course, your argument is that sethb is a brain-dead zombie with the mental capacity of a two year old. I don't believe sethb to be so severely impaired, nor do I believe that you think that is the case.

Fact: the NPO knew that OV had screenies, or was going to receive screenies.

The only way the NPO could have known is one of the following:

1: An OV member told the NPO about them, and NPO accepted this information gladly.

2: NPO spies figured out about it.

Now, in both of those two scenarios, the NPO has used both of these reasons to classify such behavior, when performed against the NPO, as "spy attacks". Therefore, using the NPO's own logic, the NPO spied on OV. You'll forgive me if I do see a pattern with the NPO's multitude of DOW's for "spying"...

Your interpretation is rather simplistic and factually incorrect. In the case at hand, NPO appears to have received the information from an ally, not as a result of direct espionage. NPO did not directly spy anything. How the ally got the information is uncertain. If anyone has links to posts that explain exactly where the information came from and who provided it, I would certainly be interested to know. And even if it came from a disgruntled OV member, NPO would still have undeniable moral supremacy in this case. The is a huge difference between knowingly accepting stolen classified military intelligence and accepting information that identifies the thief of that stolen information. Frankly, I would be pretty disgusted myself if I was a member of an alliance that was posting screenies of other alliance's confidential forums. I would not blame a member who felt a moral imperative to report such slimy behavior. As I stated above, whistleblowing is NOT espionage or spying.

[Drostan]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

I think we held only a MDP with NPO and I am pretty sure we canceled it immediately following them going into peace mode preparing to attack OV. By the time we actually entered the war the cancellation period had been satisfied. Although it may be considered bad form to fight against a recently former ally we had current allies with whom we held MDPs that needed honouring. Beyond all of that though there remains the whole cause for the war which remains shrouded in doubt and given NPO's track record they generally do not get the benefit of the doubt in such matters.

Everyone knows that a rift in Q had been forming for quite some time and I do not think NPO just accidentally found themselves in a bad situation. I think NPO was aware of the rift as well and wanted to force confrontation earlier rather than later so that they could determine where different loyalties lied instead of letting the opposition solidify their powers. They were hoping to draw some of the moderates in on their side but drew less than they anticipated. That is how they ended up with the short stick.

I never really liked the name Karma for the forces fighting against the 'Hegemony' but the name has stuck. Do I think that the assault on the NPO constitutes justice? I am not even concerned whether it does or does not. But one way or another we have found ourselves fighting them and I know that they will attempt revenge if we do not make that impossible. I am sure that the war with NPO will go far beyond what is just and end up being punitive but it has to. It is a pragmatic matter at this point. Karma will not constitute a new hegemony because the interests of Karma are simply not closely enough unified to keep all of its 'members' together following the end of the war. New lines will no doubt be drawn following the war and I do not expect to see one singular power BLOC created.

Hold your hats for the NPO sure. It may not be justice but it is a stern reminder not to repeat the mistakes that they have made in their stint on top of Planet Bob.

EDIT:

There is a distinct difference between offensive espionage and defensive counterintelligence.

It is funny because accepting materials offered by another alliance is a pretty stilted definition of offensive espionage. Conversely, in order to know that there was any call for "defensive counterintelligence" they would have to have had active offensive espionage on the go. It only becomes defensive once you know someone else is offensively spying against you. It is funny that you invoke an example from mafia vs police tactics as it betrays your bias clearly: in your scenario NPO represents the police and OV the mafia. Why? haha. It's an absurd standpoint. I won't argue it further I merely wish to draw attention to what caught my eye.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Drostan

[Joe Izuzu]

It is funny because accepting materials offered by another alliance is a pretty stilted definition of offensive espionage. Conversely, in order to know that there was any call for "defensive counterintelligence" they would have to have had active offensive espionage on the go. It only becomes defensive once you know someone else is offensively spying against you. It is funny that you invoke an example from mafia vs police tactics as it betrays your bias clearly: in your scenario NPO represents the police and OV the mafia. Why? haha. It's an absurd standpoint. I won't argue it further I merely wish to draw attention to what caught my eye.

Scenario 1: A member of a declared spy ring approaches you and offers you confidential military information on another alliance that has been stolen in a direct offensive espionage operation.

Scenario 2: An ally approaches you and informs you that they have information that identifies someone that has received military intelligence that has been stolen from you.

Are you really stating that there is no material difference between the two scenarios?

[Kevin Cash]

You're right, he's too dense to understand when I go down the list and answer every single one of his points anyways. It's like arguing with a wall.

Edit: How am I attacking your character or being prejudice by pointing out your obviously, by the facts hypocrisy? I doubt you even understand what ad hominid is considering you use that word to respond to my posts when you can't think of an adequate counterargument. Learn to understand the definition of a word before you go around spouting it over other post.

i'm afraid spewing propaganda and making ad hominem attacks (like calling me 'dense' for no reason, or otherwise attacking my character as you have done repeatedly, that is the definition of ad-hominem and i can also spell it correctly thank you very much) does not count as 'winning.' it counts as perpetuating a 'no u' battle which is, unfortunately, all cn politics are anymore. except you were the only one saying 'no u' while i was bringing up valid points. of course, youre going to respond and say 'lol you dont have a clue what youre talking about you have no clue' instead of, you know, actually refuting my points. youd rather dance around them and then proclaim im wrong, and get a pat on the back from all the other karmites who believe the propaganda bull****.

for your reference since you need it

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the person") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

while you're not entirely changing the subject, you are working to undermine my argument by attacking my person instead.

but why do i bother, like the 'no u' debate, most of cn discourse also consists of ad-hominem attacks, along with every other logical fallacy known or unknown to man.

[WarriorConcept]

The scholars of the victors always get the opportunity to write the history books how they see fit.

Guess that's why everyone remembers the Green Massacre so favorable for GGA.

[Detlev]

Let's define the terms here.

spy: verb To engage in espionage.

spy: noun someone who engages in espionage

espionage: noun the use of spies, or the practice of spying, for the purpose of obtaining information about the plans, activities, capabilities, or resources of a competitor or enemy.

By your own definitions sethb is obviously not a spy. He didn't collect the data.

[Doc Taco]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

Once more. Say it with me now: "MHA did not have an MADP with NPO. We had an MoADP, and since agression was "optional" we chose not to join in NPO's little military adventure in OV-land. We honored our treaty perfectly well, thank you."

[Joe Izuzu]

By your own definitions sethb is obviously not a spy. He didn't collect the data.

spy: verb To engage in espionage.

spy: noun someone who engages in espionage

espionage: noun the use of spies, or the practice of spying, for the purpose of obtaining information about the plans, activities, capabilities, or resources of a competitor or enemy.

Clearly, sethb engaged in "the use of a spy" (Demeanor) to obtain information about the plans, activities, capabilities, or resources of a competitor or enemy, in this case NPO. It really isn't so hard to understand. A spy approaches him (or sethb approaches him), the spy informs him that he is going to obtain secret military intel on NPO (or sethb requests the intel), the spy then obtains the intel, comes back to sethb and delivers the intel.

You can argue many points about this conflict, but arguing that sethb was not a knowing spy is just plain silly.

[Drostan]

Clearly, sethb engaged in "the use of a spy" (Demeanor) to obtain information about the plans, activities, capabilities, or resources of a competitor or enemy, in this case NPO. It really isn't so hard to understand. A spy approaches him (or sethb approaches him), the spy informs him that he is going to obtain secret military intel on NPO (or sethb requests the intel), the spy then obtains the intel, comes back to sethb and delivers the intel.

You can argue many points about this conflict, but arguing that sethb was not a knowing spy is just plain silly.

The problem with your argument is that you have nothing at all proving that sethb engaged the spy before the data was collected. He simply accepted data that had been collected not even knowing precisely what it was. If he is a spy he is an accidental spy. Viewing sensitive materials is certainly different than engaging someone to steal them for you.

And no, I do not believe there is a material difference as there is nothing material in either scenario here...

I am not sure what this 'declared spy ring' you speak of is but I am pretty sure if it wasn't made up they'd all be ZI'd. Furthermore you would have to have an ally that is actively spying on OV in order to obtain the information which would indeed undercut your moral superiority.

@Kevin Cash: Complaining about ad hominem attacks does not invalidate all the points that your interlocutor makes. Beyond that, an argument ad hominem is considered a legitimate tactic even in a court of law. It's called questioning the credibility of a witness in order to cast doubt on his/her testimony and it is used frequently in criminal cases. It is ironic because it seems to be you who wishes to change the subject and alienate the discourse from its content in favour of parading tired latin phrases from rhetoric textbooks.

[Joe Izuzu]

The problem with your argument is that you have nothing at all proving that sethb engaged the spy before the data was collected. He simply accepted data that had been collected not even knowing precisely what it was. If he is a spy he is an accidental spy. Viewing sensitive materials is certainly different than engaging someone to steal them for you.

And no, I do not believe there is a material difference as there is nothing material in either scenario here...

I am not sure what this 'declared spy ring' you speak of is but I am pretty sure if it wasn't made up they'd all be ZI'd. Furthermore you would have to have an ally that is actively spying on OV in order to obtain the information which would indeed undercut your moral superiority.

From the text of the conversation between sethb and Demeanor, it is clear that sethb had prior knowledge of the nature of the screenshot in question. When someone comes to you and says "I have that item for you" the statement clearly implies prior discussion of the item in question. Especially when the recipient responds in a rather celebratory fashion, as was the case with sethb. Does this constitute "proof" as would be defined in a court of law? No, but then again no such standard is necessary or customary here. These forums generally operate on a far less stringent level and to an objective observer, it is obvious that 1) Demeanor and sethb knew each other and 2) that the screenshot in question had been a topic of conversation between them prior to its actual delivery. Even more damning is the fact that the nature of the screenshot was mentioned before it was actually delivered. So sethb knew exactly what it was that he was getting, before he accepted it. In short, sethb was not "an accidental spy".

As to the "material difference" comment, I almost lol'd, but not quite. "Material difference" is an expression meaning "substantive difference" or "essential difference".

The "declared spy ring" was Blackstone Collusion, which was quite well known to the community at large and to sethb in particular. If you have read the excerpts from The Tattler, he admits to knowing exactly who Demeanor was and to what group he belonged.

Finally, the ally that provided the incriminating information to NPO would not have had to actively spied on OV in order to obtain the information. There are any number of scenarios which could have resulted in the ally obtaining the information that incriminated sethb and which would not have involved spying of any sort.

1) Demeanor gets caught and rolls over on sethb.

2) Another member of Blackstone Collusion who has knowledge of the episode gets caught and rolls over on both Demeanor and sethb.

3) An OV member sees the stolen screenshot in their forums, is disturbed that his/her alliance is acting in such a slimy fashion and comments on it to a friend who is a member of NPO's ally.

4) etc, etc, etc.

How the information was transmitted to NPO's ally is not known to me and probably never will be, but in any event it has no bearing on the fact that sethb was guilty of intentional acts of espionage against NPO.