Justice For Traitors

[Kevin Cash]

For someone who tries to be such a genius e-lawyer, he sure didn't know the difference between what the Gremlins Codex and the Citadel were.

well i didnt consider myself a 'genius e-lawyer' but thanks for the compliment :0)

also, i admitted that rather huge mistake i made, and noted that people generally dont talk about the charters of other alliances to such an extent, and in correcting my mistake analyzed the text of the lux aeterna, the actual citadel treaty, which i have referenced ever since i made my mistake.

admit it, 'the codex' would have been a damn cool name for a treaty and im not an evil horrible person for making that mistake :|

[Chief Savage Man]

Karma is not a unified bloc. Citadel's war aims are different than CnG's, Vox Populi's different than Superfriends' and so on. Just because one of us preachs it doesn't mean all of Karma agrees.

[Kevin Cash]

Youre a misguided little fella.

1. Old Guard did not die. We took care of that.

2. Old Guard was ONE of our allies. What about those other ten on the Karma side? Would you also complain about us letting them die if we had joined hegemony?

3. Of course we went in to win the war. That point is moot. Do you join a war to NOT damage your enemies?

do you identify as a component of the conglomerate structure which self-identifies as 'karma?' serious question here

[Deadshot]

1) They didn't completely break their oaths with NPO. They were inevitably bound to fight under One Vision and the Continuum, despite the cancellation and suspension of individual treaties with Pacifica.

Oh my, somebody actually noticed this?!

[Tiggah]

One could make the argument that your alliance would seek to use continued war to position yourself at the top. I see peace has been achieved between yourselves, TPF, ML & DOOM. Would that not leave you on the sidelines or do you continue to press another front I am unaware of? You are led by none other than the OG of jackboots himself, Ivan Moldavi. If any repeat of GWI were to recur it could just as easily be NSO and STA replacing NPO & NpO in rising from the chaos of a divided world full of conflict.

At the very least, it's rather ridiculous for those not even in the war to be pressing to see it extended.

[HellAngel]

do you identify as a component of the conglomerate structure which self-identifies as 'karma?' serious question here

Yes. Serious answer here.

[Matthew Conrad]

well i didnt consider myself a 'genius e-lawyer' but thanks for the compliment :0)

also, i admitted that rather huge mistake i made, and noted that people generally dont talk about the charters of other alliances to such an extent, and in correcting my mistake analyzed the text of the lux aeterna, the actual citadel treaty, which i have referenced ever since i made my mistake.

admit it, 'the codex' would have been a damn cool name for a treaty and im not an evil horrible person for making that mistake :|

I never said you were an evil, horrible person for making such a mistake. I just pointed out something ironic that I saw. Anyways, the mistake I mainly see is, like Hellangel said, you claiming it was wrong of Gremlins to take Karma's side over OG. You somehow believe one ally who never even activated the Citadel treaty, takes precedent over multiple others; others who are more in line with the Gremlins beliefs.

[Mogar]

At the very least, it's rather ridiculous for those not even in the war to be pressing to see it extended.

Silly, the more everyone damages each other the better chance everyone will have of getting that #1 spot.

[Detlev]

I do believe it was someone on the Karma side that originally said that. Do do us all a favor and at least know what you are talking about before you start insulting everyone. All I have seen here is a few people such as yourself belittling the opinions of everyone else like a child as opposed to having a good healthy debate. I couldn't care less what your opinion of me is, but reverting to remarks like you are making is ridiculous.

That being said, I never said that some of the past actions of certain alliances weren't questionable. All I was saying is that to stomp someone down and kick them in the head to prove they were wrong gets you no where. We, the hegemonis side did that, and look where we are now. On the opposite side of the bayonet. Surely you can see if you repeated those actions, the tables would turn.

We have already failed to repeat those actions in that our CB against hegemony was not fabricated. We didn't seek to maintain our position. It is such a simple concept. It is called "context."

Maybe you need to figure out what "Karma" side stands for. It has to be one or the other. Pointing out errors and showing the world no one is invincible, with the promise of a better future, or doing the same thing others have done in the past only to have them filled with hatred.

If we were going to "do the same thing that others [NPO et al] have done in the past" we would have to fabricate a nonsense CB against NPO et al. Hey maybe we did. Maybe the incident with sethb was set up by Archon soley for the purpose of stomping NPO and taking the #1 spot.

Being a member of the Hegemonis side, I can tell you, I hold no ill will toward any alliance on the opposition. Maybe this is because we were beat at our own game, and called out, then learned from it. Maybe it is because I couldn't care which alliances are in control of what. Its a game.

You are not being beat at your own game. Why can't people look more than six inches deep in to this war? You seem to simply see a lopsided war and conclude your thought process there. Take a look deeper and examine the reasons for the war, and compare them to NPO's treatment of FAN, GPA, and GATO (just to name three). It isn't the same "game."

[Kevin Cash]

Yes. Serious answer here.

so, you took up a banner of a group you knew was actively harming your treaty partner in og. from the lux aeterna:

Indirect Aggression: Indirect aggression shall mean:

i) Actual or attempted acts of conspiracy, harassment, or other acts intended to cause harm;

karma 'intended to do harm' (well, duh, it is a war after all) to the alliances they were fighting, including old guard, and by taking up the 'karma' banner for yourself, you understood fully that you were explicitly joining a coalition which was causing direct harm to old guard.

correct me if you think i am wrong, i am curious to see your stance on this before pressing this further.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Margrave is correct, you need to stop playing gotcha and look at the situation more closely. NSO is not a member of Karma.

OK then. Looking at the situation at hand, the OP responded to OG getting white peace and calls for harsher terms for alliances in the "Hegemony", yes? The OP's own alliance has since given TPF white peace, barring the imposition of peppercorn reparations. Surely the OP should have called on his alliance (or at least expressed his shock and anger) to impose harsh terms on TPF, unless TPF's situation is very different to OG's?

Edit: Bear in mind here that my suppositions here may be wrong, please correct me if they are.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[bzelger]

If any repeat of GWI were to recur it could just as easily be NSO and STA replacing NPO & NpO in rising from the chaos of a divided world full of conflict.

Beware the power-hungry STA. Soon you shall all be groveling like the wretches you will be 'neath our oppressive reign.

[Proxian Empire]

Beware the power-hungry STA. Soon you shall all be groveling like the wretches you will be 'neath our oppressive reign.

We are easily the most power hungry and warmongering folk in the game.

[Aurion]

OK then. Looking at the situation at hand, the OP responded to OG getting white peace and calls for harsher terms for alliances in the "Hegemony", yes? The OP's own alliance has since given TPF white peace, barring the imposition of peppercorn reparations. Surely the OP should have called on his alliance (or at least expressed his shock and anger) to impose harsh terms on TPF, unless TPF's situation is very different to OG's?

Edit: Bear in mind here that my suppositions here may be wrong, please correct me if they are.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here considering it's in the Open World and say that Margrave's opinions are his own.

[Homura]

We are easily the most power hungry and warmongering folk in the game.

You should try being power hungry warmongerers. It's fun.

[bzelger]

We prefer being twinkie-hungry, uh, twinkiemongers.

[Emperor Whimsical]

When Fighting monsters, one should be careful one does not become a monster, my dear margrave.

[savethecheerleader]

edit: read the OP before you post, kids. It halps.

Edited May 7, 2009 by savethecheerleader

[Deadshot]

We have already failed to repeat those actions in that our CB against hegemony was not fabricated. We didn't seek to maintain our position. It is such a simple concept. It is called "context."

If we were going to "do the same thing that others [NPO et al] have done in the past" we would have to fabricate a nonsense CB against NPO et al. Hey maybe we did. Maybe the incident with sethb was set up by Archon soley for the purpose of stomping NPO and taking the #1 spot.

You are not being beat at your own game. Why can't people look more than six inches deep in to this war? You seem to simply see a lopsided war and conclude your thought process there. Take a look deeper and examine the reasons for the war, and compare them to NPO's treatment of FAN, GPA, and GATO (just to name three). It isn't the same "game."

I have seen the reasons Detlev, nut my position still stands. We were beat at our own game. Maybe the reasons were different, but the ways to get there were not. Simply put and agreed by many of the Karma side, Your propaganda machine was in full swing. Now before you get upset, I understand that not all of the propaganda was fabricated. Misleading, yes, but in a way that is normal with Propaganda. Karma worked that wonderfully, and if you can't see that, then you are blind. Battles are won or lost before the shots are fired. There were many what ifs leading up to this, and the forum display was the turning point in my opinion.

I am not going to pretend to know if Archon had anything to do with it at all. Suffice to say, if he did, he is absolutely brilliant. Cant be mad with that kind of technical superiority.

As for the CB, well that is a matter of perception. I have witnessed the cry for blood based on treaties, CB's. no cb's, no treaties, etc. The only thing remaining constant is some will complain regardless of reasons given. In this war for instance, we have seen DF jump in on an alliance without presenting a treaty. I personally have nothing wrong with them doing that, if thats what they wish to do. But I believe the public eye would have been different if say, NATO jumped in without treaty to attack an alliance already being pounded. Again, I have nothing but respect for DF, but I still hold that CB or no CB, this war would have happened regardless.

I hope you don't think I paint Karma to be a bad thing. Competition is good. As I said to sethb before all of this, it is time to put some bark with the bite. You guys did, and I ate my words.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here considering it's in the Open World and say that Margrave's opinions are his own.

Yep I understand that. It's why my queries are directed only to him and the other dude who decided to comment on Margrave's opinion.

Edit: To be clear, I think it's a little rich for him to call on Karma to impose harsh terms and not to ask the same of his own alliance. Margrave obviously may be able to provide us with justification for why he hasn't or perhaps the case is that he has done so in private, I don't know.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[Aurion]

Yep I understand that. It's why my queries are directed only to him and the other dude who decided to comment on Margrave's opinion.

Edit: To be clear, I think it's a little rich for him to call on Karma to impose harsh terms and not to ask the same of his own alliance. Margrave obviously may be able to provide us with justification for why he hasn't or perhaps the case is that he has done so in private, I don't know.

Fair enough.

[Demosthenes Locke]

Oh my, somebody actually noticed this?!

I like to do my research

[enderland]

Oh my, somebody actually noticed this?!

So uh, you just canceled for the lulz?

[Mogar]

So uh, you just canceled for the lulz?

more like it was done to show the NPO they screwed up big time with this one.

[RamenOps]

So uh, you just canceled for the lulz?

Have you actually read the cancellation, or did you hear about it from the people screaming "cowards"?