Issues Regarding “Fall Barbarossa”

[Triyun]

I don't recognize this war, because you have to think "well if they never had that tech they never would have even STARTED the war because it would have been a strategic blunder that would make Stalin's 'not one step back' look smart"

I have friends on both sides, I was going to profit if any side won (possibly more if the non-nords did according to Centerius), but I see this ruling, quite simply, as BS. I disagreed with the submarine thing before.

You could have let them simply finished the war then taken it away, but instead you decided to yank the rug out from under them in the middle of a !@#$@#$ good war. I'm disappointed in this decision.

O_O We really need to stop agreeing like this. It is scaring me. Look, much of my IRL research lately has been on decision making in starting wars and doing negotiations. There is a plethora of evidence at the moment that a primary cause of war is rational expecations. If we are looking at this from a realistic point of view, we aren't RPing a bunch of teenagers/ college kids who either have an itchy trigger finger or are moral grand standers. We are RPing leaders, who I would presume are rational decision makers with educations and national interest in mind. Leaders like this go to War when they expect that the potential benefits are both likely enough and desirable enough to justify the cost of force. When you remove a factor like technology (which tends to be linked to quality) from the equation, which in modern military science is far far more important than quantity (especially in army to army fighting versus irregular/insurgency warfare), you change equations dramatically. If you take 30, 000 soldiers with US training and equipment and compare them to 30, 000 soldiers with Chinese training and equipment, you'd find that the US Soldiers are far and away far superior. Therefore, if everything else ceterus perabus, you have a decision whether or not to negotiate or use force and you have one of these two forces in your possesion, you're decision is likely to be a totally different one. You can't just change that in the middle of a fight or its totally unfair. Now some may say, "we shouldn't have tech sharing" fine thats a legit position, however, we had this argument before and we ruled tech sharing formula applies. You can't just switch that around. If you wanna switch it prior to or after a conflict then do that, but don't gut one sides army OOC when Martens has been nothing but open.

[Malatose]

It is coincidence that Sargun decided to void KM's tech. To be honest, we were winning this war. RUSSIAN has no sense of real tactics. The only thing I see that stand out are the frequent "I attack and push forward a little bit". Honestly, everyone is REACTING to us. It is Triyun, who is about to take Stalingrad. It is BR and KM advancing through the baltics to the north. It is me taking on two enemies (Slavo and Mykep) and advancing towards Moscow. It is ME, who knocked out all of Slavo's Western RADAR's and Satellites blinding him to our advances. Technologically, we are superior. We are using weapons that are advanced and we can back it up with legit sources, etc. It's hilarious how you consider us to be losing. To be honest, It is the NC who built this RP, alongside some noticeable RUSSIAN members, such as Vaule and Slavo. We are actually thinking out our post. We are actually knowledge to what we're using. Everyone else is just sending mass waves hoping to do damage. This is not WWII. The days of massive pushes and bomber runs are OVER.

As stated by Merger, we planned this operation for months. We knew exactly who was going to join and what tactics they would employ. Basically, we have a handbook of ifs and what ifs. We aren't dumb. We know what is to come. That's just how we plan our campaigns. To say we would roll knowing all of us weren't technologically prepared would be a huge blunder. Therefore, yanking a member of that advantage is severely wiping out our strategic thinking and military tactics, in the middle of a war. Why even continue?

Edited April 10, 2009 by Malatose

[Markus Wilding]

It was great. It would be a waste for all that you guys invested to just go poof like it never happened.

I really can't say anything else other than that...

[Sargun II]

Even Lynneth and LVN (who have no need to tech share) knew that you could only take tech from one person. Even if you thought you could give it to more than one, KM was receiving at least three tech sharing deals. That by itself is a violation, but because I'm not omniscient and know everything and because you never announced any sort of tech sharing (and your little pact had only an "economic agreement") I didn't notice it.

Sumeragi lost her giant effing submarine even though she planned a huge war about it. Maelstrom had to continue with his missiles even though they were deemed physically impossible, and they were only wiped because HK made Lavo re-roll all of his nukes. Just because this is of a larger scale than other conflicts doesn't mean I'll be giving you special treatment.

I would have done the same thing whether it had been at the beginning, middle or end. "Coincidence" that I just did it now is an accusation against me, one that I won't take. I even gave KM a chance to talk it out with me, but instead he blew me off. You screwed yourself over. If you want to continue on this path and continue to criticize what I do because you don't like it, fine. Be that way and watch where it gets you.

[Uberstein]

Banned from the forums? Please explain what these punishments for disagreeing with the GM will be instead of making vague threats.

Also, I disagree with all of those past actions, but it's a bit too late to change any of them. I personally am thinking of asking the mods for the abolishment of the GM position (As in, no more GM's at all), because it all does it create unelected powerful people who make decisions that will cause uproar and massive disagreement. The chance of bias is too high, because they are still human. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Sargun II]

Banned from the forums? Please explain what these punishments for disagreeing with the GM will be instead of making vague threats.

I was going to say "nowhere".

[King Kevz]

Banned from the forums? Please explain what these punishments for disagreeing with the GM will be instead of making vague threats.

Also, I disagree with all of those past actions, but it's a bit too late to change any of them. I personally am thinking of asking the mods for the abolishment of the GM position (As in, no more GM's at all), because it all does it create unelected powerful people who make decisions that will cause uproar and massive disagreement. The chance of bias is too high, because they are still human. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So what do you suggest instead of GM's then Baron? Nothing do we sit around and argue OOC for pages and pages until nothing is done. I really look forward to hearing your view.

[Uberstein]

So what do you suggest instead of GM's then Baron? Nothing do we sit around and argue OOC for pages and pages until nothing is done. I really look forward to hearing your view.

I remember the BETTER days. We didn't need GM's, we didn't guidelines.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...c=51303&hl=

Those days. You were THERE, I remember you. I remember the days when people didn't godmod or use OOC to win wars, people just had fun. Now we have all turned into factions of rabid dogs, using every trick in the book to hurt each other.

Behind the scenes OOC attacks, dirty politics, and more.

EDIT: Now, my break is almost over and I have classes to go to. I'll get back to you all in a few hours.

Edited April 10, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[King Kevz]

I remember the BETTER days. We didn't need GM's, we didn't guidelines.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...c=51303&hl=

Those days. You were THERE, I remember you. I remember the days when people didn't godmod or use OOC to win wars, people just had fun. Now we have all turned into factions of rabid dogs, using every trick in the book to hurt each other.

Behind the scenes OOC attacks, dirty politics, and more.

EDIT: Now, my break is almost over and I have classes to go to. I'll get back to you all in a few hours.

Yes I remember those days they were brilliant and some of the most fun times I have had roleplaying if we could go back to them it would be brilliant. No world map, no guidelines it was great alas I doubt we will ever see them again.

[Centurius]

The only way I could see that coming back exactly is if we completely abolish the World Map

[V The King]

I remember the BETTER days. We didn't need GM's, we didn't guidelines.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...c=51303&hl=

Those days. You were THERE, I remember you. I remember the days when people didn't godmod or use OOC to win wars, people just had fun. Now we have all turned into factions of rabid dogs, using every trick in the book to hurt each other.

Behind the scenes OOC attacks, dirty politics, and more.

The RP community back then, though, was quite small and tight-knit - this meant that players could generally rule themselves without much hassle, because all it took to reach a consensus was a little bit of opinion. Look at how big we are now - we have many more active RP'ers, deriving from all kinds of personalities and alliances.

"The bigger they are, the harder it is to rule themselves" applies perfectly in this scenario - invariably, due to the cheer amount of people and the lack of guidelines led some to push their limits - then we had a set of guidelines establishment. Then, others kept pushing it, then we had RP mods intervening. Still, it was not enough so GM's were appointed. And now... will we have to have our wars strictly regulated?

EDIT: No, Centurius. The only way that we'd go back to the "old days" would be when we have a massive exodus.

Edited April 10, 2009 by V The King

[Uberstein]

Our size is fine, what we lost is our community and respect. We have no problems with godmodding because we assume that the others will do the same to us when we aren't looking. We nitpick every post and raise hell for anything we find. We establish guidelines to create false equality.

I see no problem with people tech sharing to their hearts desire. People can give tech in the game AND IRL. As long as you RP the training and such, why the hell not?

[King Kevz]

Our size is fine, what we lost is our community and respect. We have no problems with godmodding because we assume that the others will do the same to us when we aren't looking. We nitpick every post and raise hell for anything we find. We establish guidelines to create false equality.

I see no problem with people tech sharing to their hearts desire. People can give tech in the game AND IRL. As long as you RP the training and such, why the hell not?

Im in total agreement with you here Uberstein. If people talked to each other and discussed problems and idea then the whole RP community could be better off. Also I could go along with tech trading its just at the moment its handled wrongly. For example if I got into a tech share right now I would instantly have what ever year tech I get because of it. No one ever seems to RP the training and time needed to get to grips with the new tech.

[Justinian the Mighty]

Like I've said before about tech sharing it shouldn't be general and all encompassing, for example:

Nation 1: Hey Nation 2 can I have some teckz plawkz?

Nation 2: Lawl, of course you can, we have no real relations or reason to interact on this level, but yes.

Nation 1: Coolies broham, also can I haz ur nookz? :lol:

Nation 2: lollerskates, sure u can.

^^thats what it is now. What I think should happen...

Nordheim: Yo CSSR you have nice tanks, and we're allies now can I buy some?

CSSR: You sure can buddy, you need anything else?

Nordheim: Guns, lots of guns.

CSSR: I got ya. B)

See how much fun it is that way. That way there's no way people can claim your rp is vague. Everyone knows exactly what you're getting, and what it's capable of.

Also, the NC is nowhere near Moscow. Martens and Brian are being attacked aggressively on the western front, and in the south Slavorussians had to retreat several kilometers, but so far Moscow is absolutely safe… unless of course it gets nuked.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Im in total agreement with you here Uberstein. If people talked to each other and discussed problems and idea then the whole RP community could be better off. Also I could go along with tech trading its just at the moment its handled wrongly. For example if I got into a tech share right now I would instantly have what ever year tech I get because of it. No one ever seems to RP the training and time needed to get to grips with the new tech.

Now that I can agree to.

[sir jesus]

I think these are all excellent points. Just RP the physical transfer of weaponry/technology and there should be nothing left to discuss.

Can we please just get this war going. I don't think any of the combatants even care a little bit about the tech level of KM. Can we just finish this war and set a new precedent for tech sharing at the end?

[Sargun II]

unless of course it gets nuked.

[Subtleknifewielder]

What most of you Nordic nations seem to be forgetting is...you've contracted Sargun's nation to fight for you. He's fighting on your side, so don't call him biased.

[Sargun II]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53673

[Comrade]

Uber if you have issues how the war is being handled, jump in yourself instead of being neutral. I try to RP realisticly, instead of saying "LAWLZ Dodge!" i take the bombers like a champ. People seem to be afraid of casualties and losses. Im not. If this OOC Biz fest continues, ill let you guys finish the war yourselves. Im in it for the fun of writing.

[King Kevz]

Uber if you have issues how the war is being handled, jump in yourself instead of being neutral. I try to RP realisticly, instead of saying "LAWLZ Dodge!" i take the bombers like a champ. People seem to be afraid of casualties and losses. Im not. If this OOC Biz fest continues, ill let you guys finish the war yourselves. Im in it for the fun of writing.

Does that mean you won't counter attack me.

*looks up with puppy dog eyes*

[Uberstein]

Uber if you have issues how the war is being handled, jump in yourself instead of being neutral. I try to RP realisticly, instead of saying "LAWLZ Dodge!" i take the bombers like a champ. People seem to be afraid of casualties and losses. Im not. If this OOC Biz fest continues, ill let you guys finish the war yourselves. Im in it for the fun of writing.

Unlike some people, my OOC and IC are different.

IC, I have no reason to join the war, and Rebeu doesn't like war, he just sells weapons so OTHER people can fight. Rebeu is dead now, but Phantz isn't going to go into war in the middle of a organization crisis.

[Justinian the Mighty]

Uber if you have issues how the war is being handled, jump in yourself instead of being neutral. I try to RP realisticly, instead of saying "LAWLZ Dodge!" i take the bombers like a champ. People seem to be afraid of casualties and losses. Im not. If this OOC Biz fest continues, ill let you guys finish the war yourselves. Im in it for the fun of writing.

Lol I'm afraid I cant allow that.

[Comrade]

Oh ill step out, but negotiate terms after the conflict is over so it doesnt get lost in all teh chatter. I dont expect to leave this war without some boo boos

[Manetheren]

This war needs to continue, plain and simple. All of Martens advances will simply be nulled while the rest of the NCs advances still exist. That easy.

Sumeragi didn't get to blow it off, Lavo didn't get to blow it off, Vektor didn't get to blow it off, Maelstrom didn't get to blow it off and neither does Martens. There are consequences for going into a war without knowing your own tech level.