Transfering Ships and Nukes

[Subtleknifewielder]

Why can't I experiment with futuristic weapons, invest extremely heavily in my nation in order to yield a much higher GDP, have a huge army, navy, airforce, etc.? All of those are feasible and done in IRL...

Wait, in-game stats.

Wait...so you don't have a high tech level ingame? My mistake...

[Lord Frost]

I agree with sticking with the IG stats in this argument... it only makes sense and cuts back on the OOC arguments that can crop up later.

First off, no it doesnt. Believe me, people are determined to twist the rules so their nation can be that much stronger.

Secondly, No you dont. Your saying this only because it fits your need, whatever that may be. This is the first time ever I have ever seen you say this. Come on now, be at least a little honest. very few people at all support direct IG stats; I know, Ive been arguing for it ever since I joined RP, and so has Botha, and so has Triyun. This is what CNRP has evolved too people, there is no use complaining about it now

Nuke and Navy numbers = what you have in game. There shouldnt be any discussion on this

[Subtleknifewielder]

First off, no it doesnt. Believe me, people are determined to twist the rules so their nation can be that much stronger.

Secondly, No you dont. Your saying this only because it fits your need, whatever that may be. This is the first time ever I have ever seen you say this. Come on now, be at least a little honest. very few people at all support direct IG stats; I know, Ive been arguing for it ever since I joined RP, and so has Botha, and so has Triyun. This is what CNRP has evolved too people, there is no use complaining about it now

Nuke and Navy numbers = what you have in game. There shouldnt be any discussion on this

Now who's whining?

And not everyone has an ulterior motive, Frost.

[Tanis777]

First off, no it doesnt. Believe me, people are determined to twist the rules so their nation can be that much stronger.

Secondly, No you dont. Your saying this only because it fits your need, whatever that may be. This is the first time ever I have ever seen you say this. Come on now, be at least a little honest. very few people at all support direct IG stats; I know, Ive been arguing for it ever since I joined RP, and so has Botha, and so has Triyun. This is what CNRP has evolved too people, there is no use complaining about it now

Nuke and Navy numbers = what you have in game. There shouldnt be any discussion on this

Oh you think I just started arguing off this because you got nukes from Triyun... ohohoho... no! Your assumptions is worse than a seven year old kid right now. I only twist my nation to become stronger based off certain aspects of real life, like mandatory military service for 2 years based off the Israelis. And very soon, my nation will be too large to financially support that model and will revert to the volunteer military service model.

I support the use of IG stats when it comes to superweapons and uber-tech navies. Sure, I hold tech-sharing treaties... but I don't use them since it's much easier for me to RP the tech level that I already have (based off LVN's tech scale), which is around the year 2006. I have no time to research 'future weapon systems'. My factbook is a testament to that.

I see flexibility for smaller IG nations to RP low-tech navies. I've held two ANZAC-class frigates just a few months ago when Sargun was selling them. Now I can maintain on them now with the drydock I have IG. I don't have battleships or guided-missile destroyers or uber aircraft carriers... since I'll buy them IG to be legal.

You sir have received stuff much higher on the tech scale. I don't advocate nations receiving nuclear weapons if they are not capable of holding them. I certainly won't be party to that. I see flexibility for smaller nations to receive things of low-tech nature in terms of navies... but hell no to WMD carry-over. So don't be bawww 'I've never seen you support this' argument because this argument hasn't popped up for awhile, and the last time it happened, I didn't say anything about my position on it.

You trapped me in your assumption of 'very few people support the use of direct IG stats'... I never said that I did directly support every line of that idea. I support it in this very specific position towards WMDs (all three NBC). And see above for ships.

Lastly, don't continue to prop up your arguments OOCly on how CNRP has, I quote, "This is what CNRP has evolved too people, there is no use complaining about it now." Saying just because this is how it has evolved, doesn't mean it's right. This is faulty logic, your just adhering to what everyone else is doing. So what... you and Triyun and Botha have been arguing about sticking to IG stats the whole time. Again, this is faulty logic because now, your acting as the hypocrite to accept nuclear weapons you do not have IG while you 'were' advocating IG stats.

How dare you put words in my mouth, your personal attack and Circumstantial Ad Hominem logic has failed.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Quest07

[Justinian the Mighty]

First off, no it doesnt. Believe me, people are determined to twist the rules so their nation can be that much stronger.

Secondly, No you dont. Your saying this only because it fits your need, whatever that may be. This is the first time ever I have ever seen you say this. Come on now, be at least a little honest. very few people at all support direct IG stats; I know, Ive been arguing for it ever since I joined RP, and so has Botha, and so has Triyun. This is what CNRP has evolved too people, there is no use complaining about it now

Nuke and Navy numbers = what you have in game. There shouldnt be any discussion on this

There's a first time for everything. Also I haven't seen Triyun argue for direct IG stats at all.

[Gebiv]

Because a mod ruled on ships directly. We've given nukes before and taken it away from our in-game count, it was done reasonably and I see no reason to "fix" it.

Mod rulings don't take precedent anymore, for the most part. You can repeal that ruling at your whim.

[Sargun II]

Mod rulings don't take precedent anymore, for the most part. You can repeal that ruling at your whim.

Mod rulings still take precedent.

edit:

furthermore, let it be known that all of Triyun's actions are stricken.

his nuclear clean-up lasted one post whereas others have made it a long-term goal (some more than others, like Centurius, Lavo and Sarah [who took far less damage]), he re-rolled without going about RPing any other consequences (the only other person to re-roll was Centurius, who queried me and took penalties and more), and pretty much gave his nation away at the end.

he gave away no nukes, ships, plans, money, anything.

should his new nation be punished? dunno.

edit2: in b4 bias

Edited March 13, 2009 by Sargun

[Justinian the Mighty]

I’m almost positive the mod ruling is law. It's the GM rulings some people might try to squeeze out of by way of the mods.

Anyway if Sargun's position is respected, then my navy and those nukes I stole from Nordland will disappear too.

[V The King]

Wait...so you don't have a high tech level ingame? My mistake...

That was a hypothetical stance. I could I'd reckon, but I was speaking from a general point of view.

[Sumeragi]

As HK-47 said, navies are only what you have in-game.

With that being said, I told Triyun he couldn't give away his navy (any part of it) because of HK's ruling. For nukes, I support if you give it away you can't rebuild it.

Sargun, wasn't the ruling that only ships that are IG can be RPed?

[Sargun II]

Sargun, wasn't the ruling that only ships that are IG can be RPed?

That was the ruling. If they don't have the IG ships, they can't RP them. Triyun giving them away gives them extra ships.

[LeVentNoir]

Mod rulings still take precedent.

edit:

furthermore, let it be known that all of Triyun's actions are stricken.

his nuclear clean-up lasted one post whereas others have made it a long-term goal (some more than others, like Centurius, Lavo and Sarah [who took far less damage]), he re-rolled without going about RPing any other consequences (the only other person to re-roll was Centurius, who queried me and took penalties and more), and pretty much gave his nation away at the end.

he gave away no nukes, ships, plans, money, anything.

should his new nation be punished? dunno.

edit2: in b4 bias

Read his factbook, he has some RP thats so thin you can read through it, and using that as evidence / reason, he claims he gets all the same units and hardware as the german army, his old airforce, and pulls a highly dubious navy out an unspecified orifice. I think that re rolling to avoid consequences should be punished, really.

[Uberstein]

Read his factbook, he has some RP thats so thin you can read through it, and using that as evidence / reason, he claims he gets all the same units and hardware as the german army, his old airforce, and pulls a highly dubious navy out an unspecified orifice. I think that re rolling to avoid consequences should be punished, really.

Wow, we are actually agreeing on something.

[Lynneth]

Wow, we are actually agreeing on something.

Hell's frozen over.

[Lord Frost]

Wow, we are actually agreeing on something.

Then all is lost!!!!

Subtle, sumer, Jed, hell even you tanis. Im sorry if ive come across as ebil and mean

I just...I just wanted you to know that....before the end....*sniff*

[Lynneth]

Then all is lost!!!!

Subtle, sumer, Jed, hell even you tanis. Im sorry if ive come across as ebil and mean

I just...I just wanted you to know that....before the end....*sniff*

That you loved them?

(And maybe me? lol)

[Tanis777]

LVN... and Uberstein... agreeing.

This... this... IS INSANE!!

Your right Frost... the world is going to end. You have made some good points in the past.

[Vasili Markov]

My opinion is that if you stay in the game you can give ships and nukes or air force to whoever you please but you lose them off your RP maximum amount.

But if you quit then all your assets get liquidated along with your nation. Otherwise it would just be too easy to exploit.

For example:

I could convince/ask/bribe 5 of my friends who do not like to RP to join the RP and give me all their nukes, navies & airforces for use in the RP then fade into the background. Then I am an instant superpower with 100 nukes a huge fleet and over 250 squadrons of fighters & bombers.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Vasili Markov

[Justinian the Mighty]

Agreed - and ditto for tech. This whole transferring of things has no in-game basis whatsoever. It is just done because some folks want everything and are unwilling to RP with what they have based on their in-game stats </end rant>

When it comes to tech sharing i think people are taking advantage of it. I've seen some nations with low ingame tech elevated to my tech level or higher, and im on the higher end of the tech spectrum. Tech trading needs to be more specific and rped in more depth.

example of the wrong way to do it:

Nation A and I share tech. I go from 1975 tech to 2020 tech.

The right way to do it:

Me: Hey nation A can I have the plans to your fighter plane?

Nation A: Sure, can you help me emp proof my tanks?

Me: Lets share more stuff in the furture

Nation A: sure <3

[Triyun]

Mod rulings still take precedent.

edit:

furthermore, let it be known that all of Triyun's actions are stricken.

his nuclear clean-up lasted one post whereas others have made it a long-term goal (some more than others, like Centurius, Lavo and Sarah [who took far less damage]), he re-rolled without going about RPing any other consequences (the only other person to re-roll was Centurius, who queried me and took penalties and more), and pretty much gave his nation away at the end.

he gave away no nukes, ships, plans, money, anything.

should his new nation be punished? dunno.

edit2: in b4 bias

The nukes I took versus the amount Lavo took were significantl

y smaller in number. The nukes I took in regards to Sarah were significantly less concentrated due to the size of the nation. China IRL conducted 23 above ground atmospheric tests without any real consequences to its environment. I did not RP an instant recovery, I RPed plans for a recovery, with the addition of massive amounts of foreign capital.

If 5 nukes put you into nuclear winter, the United States, Russia, France, China, and Britain all already be in it. 700 kiloton bombs kill millions of people but they are not doomsday weapons, if 5 100 megaton bombs were dropped, I'd be dead. It was only after both sides tested large hydrogen bombs that the idea of MAD began to really come into fruition during the cold war.

In regards to giving away my stuff. I would point out that LeVentNoir gave Shan his navy when he founded Rockport, as far as I know that was never undone so I gave mine to a friend. We still ate 20 nukes from Lavo when he gave 4 to Gebiv, so I do not really know how that wasn't effected either. Until this topic was zero reason for me to think there would be an issue.

Now in regards to my new stuff. I'm perfectly willing to answer any questions as I did with LVN about the weapons I have in it.

Also in regards to tech sharing it depends on how it is done. Certainly the United States and Soviet Union provided military technology to plenty of allies unable to develop it on there own.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Triyun

[Sargun II]

If 5 nukes put you into nuclear winter, the United States, Russia, France, China, and Britain all already be in it. 700 kiloton bombs kill millions of people but they are not doomsday weapons, if 5 100 megaton bombs were dropped, I'd be dead. It was only after both sides tested large hydrogen bombs that the idea of MAD began to really come into fruition during the cold war.

In regards to giving away my stuff. I would point out that LeVentNoir gave Shan his navy when he founded Rockport, as far as I know that was never undone so I gave mine to a friend. We still ate 20 nukes from Lavo when he gave 4 to Gebiv, so I do not really know how that wasn't effected either. Until this topic was zero reason for me to think there would be an issue.

(Lavo has RP'd total and utter devastation and was practically annihilated in some capacities, good luck comparing to that)

Notice how I never said nuclear winter - I disagree with nuclear winter because it would be too widespread. Mercy outlined all sorts of things that quite a few people are following and quite a few aren't - many of whom have been purged. In regards to giving away your stuff, when LVN gave Shan his navy it was before HK made his ruling, a ruling you supported. Hypocrisy gains you no points.

Nukes have been given away before and that was before rulings were made - this was exactly why I didn't want to make it because then you (or someone else) would say "well gebiv/lavo/martens/uberstein got to do it why can't I?"

If you have anything more than 'i took a few less nukes' and grandfathering, please let me know. Don't like it? That's a shame, but when I have multiple people (including those who weren't even your enemies in the war) asking for something to be done, I'll do it. If you want to argue this further, that's a shame because it wont' get you anywhere.

I dislike making this decision, but I will make it anyway.

[Uberstein]

I barely got any nukes from Martens. I got about 4 tactical nukes, and then I dismantled them to produce cobalt using the uranium. Triyun is trying to give up his entire nuclear arsenal, including things of extreme power.

Edited March 13, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Botha]

My opinion is that if you stay in the game you can give ships and nukes or air force to whoever you please but you lose them off your RP maximum amount.

But who is keeping track of all this so it doesn't get abused?

Sigh... I still don't see why people just can't go with what they have in-game, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to figure out what folks have

Edited March 13, 2009 by Botha

[Uberstein]

But who is keeping track of all this so it doesn't get abused?

Sigh... I still don't see why people just can't go with what they have in-game, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to figure out what folks have

I tried this, people didn't like my having B-2 stealth bombers when their tech scale said I was late WWII tech.

[Centurius]

Problem with the in-game is it isn't chronological with basic bombers being after modern helicopters like the Apache.