An attack upon IRON

[lcdt94]

In a game where

A. The Message Boards you visit in Real Life will be used to justify attacks against your CN Nation and Alliance;

B. Your Alliance Message Board may be subjected to a "Viceroy" by someone in the game who defeats you in war;

C. Regular groups of people join the game all at once from a foreign message board not related to CN and form alliances;

D. Real Life Human Beings are ordered to be ZI'ed if they play the game, no matter their nation name, based in their IP address;

E. Alliances require Real Email Addresses and track your IP, and provide it to their "Allies" if needed,

there is no (insert bad word here, I prefer the F-Bomb myself) OOC line.

The forum attacks, regardless of this wasteful conversation about IC/OOC, are criminal. However, any hacker knows this action will get no one in trouble, as there is a certain amount of monetary damage you have to do to get in serious trouble. Furthermore, any decent hacker would have gone through one or more proxies, making it almost impossible to track down, unless you're prepared to issue multiple subpoeneas.

So, I'm not happy that some CN players are willing to break U.S. law (which may or may not apply where they live) to settle scores in the game, but don't give me that (insert bad word here, I prefer the F-Bomb myself) line about an OOC line being crossed. It happens every day in CN, and people are only "Aghast" when the losers do it, when winners do it, its called "winning"

+1

I'll be looking forward to seeing you post more on these forums.

[Finster Baby]

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Simple as that.

Sure, oversimplify the issue, why not? How that has anything to do with the current situation escapes me. I'm sure you'll explain, whether or not I want to hear it.

We haven't seen any evidence at all of who is perpetrating these attacks and we likely never will. That's a shame.

Unfortunately, you're right about this. I won't level any accusations because I don't have enough proof to do so.

It is obviously game-related and since IRON is a griefer alliance it stands to reason that someone is fed up with it and is taking action. It's not like Mushroom Kingdom or Seaworthy Liberian Cardboard Boxes are getting hammered with DDoS attacks. They aren't part of the power structure that is causing so much consternation and has run hundreds of people out of the game or into hiding. IRON pissed the wrong people off with something they have done ingame and now they paid the price for it with their forum.

And why should losing our fourms be punishment? Is that the Voxian way of doing things? If our adversaries wish to take action against us with in-game means, they by all means they should. But to basically attack the private property that isn't even IRON'S (mainly the server on alfatech.be) is abhorrent at best and illegal at worst. Unfortunately, the means by which these attacks have occurred have made them extremely hard to trace.

You host plenty of sites Sponge - I know if the situation were reversed, you'd be screaming bloody murder, maybe not here, but you'd be beyond pissed.. Why is it good that we lose our forums?

If you want hard evidence, get the relevant legal authorities involved. Something tells me they won't bother investigating but they'd have the power to subpoena records from ISP's the botnetted computers are on and the hosts of the proxy servers used to perform these attacks.

Without much proof, can't even go to the authorities. Such is life.

If this incident should teach anyone anything, it is to keep your OS entirely updated so you can't be used as a drone in a botnet. Oh, and to treat people you meet online decently because you never know who will be able to ruin your day.

And on this we agree.

Edited March 13, 2009 by FinsterBaby

[Electron Sponge]

And why should losing our fourms be punishment? Is that the Voxian way of doing things?

Of course it isn't our way of doing things. I personally wouldn't have the first clue how to do a DDoS attack.

If our adversaries wish to take action against us with in-game means, they by all means they should.

Yeah the likelihood of success there is real high. See my previous post for an expansion on this particular point.

But to basically attack the private property that isn't even IRON'S (mainly the server on alfatech.be) is abhorrent at best and illegal at worst. Unfortunately, the means by which these attacks have occurred have made them extremely hard to trace.

No need to be melodramatic. It isn't abhorrent. Murder, $%&@, child molestation - those are abhorrent. What you've got on your hands is more accurately described as annoying.

You host plenty of sites Sponge - I know if the situation were reversed, you'd be screaming bloody murder, maybe not here, but you'd be beyond pissed.. Why is it good that we lose our forums?

As I've mentioned in this thread, sites I've hosted have been hit by DDoS attacks before. I was pissed, sure. I did what I could to alleviate the effects of the attacks. I also knew exactly why the attacks happened - because I pissed someone off in Cyber Nations. I didn't (and wouldn't) scream bloody murder at all though - that just gives the attacker what they want.

[shahenshah]

If it had nothing to do with the game the attacks would likely not have followed your forum to its new home. If it has to do with the game, that tells me that IRON did something to motivate someone to attack them in such a manner. Like I said before, you don't see SLCB or MK getting DDoS attacks. Only the large, powerful, and hegemonic alliances have it happen to them. You know, the ones who tend to piss people off by doing stuff in the game without any available retaliation. And no, for most people there is no possible retaliation. They get crushed and are told to go create a new account, that their role in CN as they know it is over, and if they are lucky they won't get rolled on the next go round as long as they keep their mouth shut. Very few people have the resources and connections I do to be able to strike at the hegemony the way I do. And even then, I can only do so much. I'm not going to ZI anyone or seriously hurt an alliance by myself, and by all accounts I am one of the more talented people who's ever logged in here (as well as the most handsome).

Deduction, shashashashamantan, deduction.

Also, arentak - well said.

Repeating in different words I feel does not warrant a new reply..and no, I didnt refer to you or Vox as an alternative, but you are free to keep yourself amused, we all depend upon you for amusement afterall.

Arentak, a very good post, ...nobody here knows what are the reasons, only thing we know for certain is that OOC attacks occurred...thats about it..I think everyone will agree on this. We arent claiming or blaming who is behind them or why it is being done....why? we simply don't know, people are off course free to speculate anything based on zero evidence.

Time to have a fun weekend, ~~ GG HF ~~

Edited March 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[Finster Baby]

Of course it isn't our way of doing things. I personally wouldn't have the first clue how to do a DDoS attack.

Yeah the likelihood of success there is real high. See my previous post for an expansion on this particular point.

No need to be melodramatic. It isn't abhorrent. Murder, $%&@, child molestation - those are abhorrent. What you've got on your hands is more accurately described as annoying.

One man's annoying is another man's abhorrent, but point taken.

As I've mentioned in this thread, sites I've hosted have been hit by DDoS attacks before. I was pissed, sure. I did what I could to alleviate the effects of the attacks. I also knew exactly why the attacks happened - because I pissed someone off in Cyber Nations. I didn't (and wouldn't) scream bloody murder at all though - that just gives the attacker what they want.

If you honestly think I don't know *WHY* we're under attack then I can't help you. We're fully aware, and, we're doing what we can to get back up and running. However, the parties who are doing the attacking should understand that peace doesn't even get considered until the attacks upon ours and others property stop, and not just for an hour or 4.

[WarriorConcept]

Arentak, a very good post, ...nobody here knows what are the reasons, only thing we know for certain is that OOC attacks occurred...thats about it..I think everyone will agree on this. We arent claiming or blaming who is behind them or why it is being done....why? we simply don't know, people are off course free to speculate anything based on zero evidence.

It seems you still can't or don't want to understand ES's post, and I'm at a loss of how or why.

Edit: Seems finster even accepts ES's reasoning, some hope in humanity restored.

Edited March 13, 2009 by WarriorConcept

[Electron Sponge]

Repeating in different words I feel does not warrant a new reply..and no, I didnt refer to you or Vox as an alternative, but you are free to keep yourself amused, we all depend upon you for amusement afterall.

Yet you still felt the urge to click "Add Reply". That sound you're hearing is your allies facepalming.

Arentak, a very good post, ...nobody here knows what are the reasons, only thing we know for certain is that OOC attacks occurred...thats about it..I think everyone will agree on this. We arent claiming or blaming who is behind them or why it is being done....why? we simply don't know, people are off course free to speculate anything based on zero evidence.

Your President seems to know more than you do. As well he should. You might want to start taking your cues from him.

If you honestly think I don't know *WHY* we're under attack then I can't help you. We're fully aware, and, we're doing what we can to get back up and running. However, the parties who are doing the attacking should understand that peace doesn't even get considered until the attacks upon ours and others property stop, and not just for an hour or 4.

That tells me IRON thinks they know who it is. How can you consider peace with a nameless, faceless attacker?

[MCRABT]

That tells me IRON thinks they know who it is. How can you consider peace with a nameless, faceless attacker?

We like you are free to speculate and I do agree with some of your "observations". It is likely that the forums are under attack as a result of IC action IRON has taken against a foreign party at some point, however you seem to post in a mannerism which eludes to the justification of this action as a consequence. Justification and consequence are two very different concepts.

We look back and conclude those who have a history of attacking forums in this manner and those who have issued threats to hit our forums in the past are the most likely suspects. Put together with those who have a motive and you can start to paint a fairly accurate picture of reality. Yes we are still speculating but that's all you can ever do in CN anyway.

[BamaBuc]

Forcing people to destroy their account in order to continue playing the game normally (perma-ZI) is called "griefing" and it's frowned upon by nearly every gaming community in existence except this one. Here it's standard practice. It doesn't equate at all with DDoS attacks as there is no illegal aspect to it, but it is a reprehensible and illegitimate tactic just the same. Even if IRON didn't support such a tactic (which it does), its allied status with multiple alliances who do use the tactic and even stronger tactics (EZI) constitute implicit support of said tactic.

I personally am not shedding a single tear over IRON's misfortune. What's happening is illegal and I don't support it but I also have absolutely no pity for them. You want to act in the arrogant manner that IRON and their Continuum friends have acted, you're going to end up pissing the wrong people off and you're going to get DDoS attacks or worse. Same thing happened to Polar when I was hosting them, most likely due to our membership in WUT and my hubristic actions as leader of the alliance. Of course I managed to fix the situation in an hour or so in each instance, generally. I also learned over time that the most important person in the game was my opponent, as without him or her there would be no game. IRON's actions and this DDoS attack are intrinsically related in my opinion.

Good luck finding a solution to this bros. Drop me a line if you need a hand. Good luck finding your soul, IRON. I can't help you with that at all.

Sponge, are you kidding me? We are talking about someone destroying someone else's property over an online pretend nation game. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Have you thought through who's being affected the most by this? Hint: It's not IRON. It's their host. The people who run that business make their living from it. If their servers go down and stay down this often, their clients will leave. And with the economy the way it is, they won't be getting many new ones. Have you even considered how this might affect their lives? The point is, people who know nothing about IRON's CN "crimes" are being affected in RL because of this. But I guess that's what they get for throwing in with people who PZI, right?

Arentak, you're wrong. There is a line. And DDoS attacks are over it.

-Bama

Edited March 13, 2009 by BamaBuc

[Firkked]

Sponge, are you kidding me? We are talking about someone destroying someone else's property over an online pretend nation game. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Have you thought through who's being affected the most by this? Hint: It's not IRON. It's their host. The people who run that business make their living from it. If their servers go down and stay down this often, their clients will leave. And with the economy the way it is, they won't be getting many new ones. Have you even considered how this might affect their lives? The point is, people who know nothing about IRON's CN "crimes" are being affected in RL because of this. But I guess that's what they get for throwing in with people who PZI, right?

Arentak, you're wrong. There is a line. And DDoS attacks are over it.

-Bama

This is probably the most lucent point I've read in this whole mess of a thread.

Bama you have my respect.

[bros]

Sponge, are you kidding me? We are talking about someone destroying someone else's property over an online pretend nation game. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Have you thought through who's being affected the most by this? Hint: It's not IRON. It's their host. The people who run that business make their living from it. If their servers go down and stay down this often, their clients will leave. And with the economy the way it is, they won't be getting many new ones. Have you even considered how this might affect their lives? The point is, people who know nothing about IRON's CN "crimes" are being affected in RL because of this. But I guess that's what they get for throwing in with people who PZI, right?

Arentak, you're wrong. There is a line. And DDoS attacks are over it.

-Bama

Nobody's property is being destroyed at all. Their host is a piece of crap that imo should be taken down for their false advertising. They make their living by scamming people out of their money, and not giving them what they promise.

Just my two cents.

[iamthey]

IRON pissed the wrong people off with something they have done ingame and now they paid the price for it with their forum.

I think you are oversimplifying a bit and assuming that the actions that are being committed are truly justified or at least have a reason behind them. Based on what I've seen and my own suspicions I am inclined to say that this attack is really just the result of a few skript-kiddyesque people who were looking for an excuse to DDoS a forum. In this sense their motives are not so much a sense of justice but rather simply the thrill they can get out of holding power over a large group of people.

Their attacks on us have been quite persistent; while they have targeted NPO periodically it has usually been limited and stopped quickly. If they were truly motivated by the same underlying goals of yourself they wouldn't spend their time focusing on us but rather target NPO, or perhaps all of Continuum. Attacking us alone though doesn't really seem to do much to advance that cause though. As such they either have some very personal issues with us (And I would be hard pressed to find someone with a real reason to hate us), or they have a bad excuse and just want to harass some people over the internet.

Edited March 14, 2009 by iamthey

[bros]

I think you are oversimplifying a bit and assuming that the actions that are being committed are truly justified or at least have a reason behind them. Based on what I've seen and my own suspicions I am inclined to say that this attack is really just the result of a few skript-kiddyesque people who were looking for an excuse to DDoS a forum. In this sense their motives are not so much a sense of justice but rather simply the thrill they can get out of holding power over a large group of people.

Their attacks on us have been quite persistent; while they have targeted NPO periodically it has usually been limited and stopped quickly. If they were truly motivated by the same underlying goals of yourself they wouldn't spend their time focusing on us but rather target NPO, or perhaps all of Continuum. Attacking us alone though doesn't really seem to do much for that cause. This means they either have some very personal issues with us, which I would be hard pressed to find someone with a real reason to hate us; or they have a bad excuse and just want to harass some people over the internet.

It's a botnet. They are using zombie computers to attack you.

If it was a script kiddie, it'd be coming from like 10 IPs at most.

This is coming from like 250 IPs minimum at a time

[iamthey]

Fair enough, that doesn't change the point. Their motives are still more likely based on thills and personal fun than some IC notion of justice.

Edited March 14, 2009 by iamthey

[BamaBuc]

Nobody's property is being destroyed at all. Their host is a piece of crap that imo should be taken down for their false advertising. They make their living by scamming people out of their money, and not giving them what they promise.

Just my two cents.

You know this case (and computer stuff in general) far better than I do, so I'll take your word for it. Still, my point is that someone's RL server (their RL business) is being attacked because IRON hurt someone in a game.

-Bama

[Conan the Barbeque]

We are talking about someone destroying someone else's property over an online pretend nation game. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

-Bama

I hear this a lot, but it is not just a pretend nation game, it is a pretend nation game a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money on - $20 a month for a couple of years, nurturing a nation every day and spending time with an in-game alliance and a community held together with nations at the centre, only for it all to be demolished in a couple of weeks by a cassus belli you probably find bogus, only to find your friends leaving the game and all your money and time and hard work down the drain.

This doesn't justify a DDoS (and I don't support it), but it does provide insight to the anger and reasoning as to why people do it; calling CN just an online pretend nation game is a pretty ignorant and often repeated saying (not that you started it or are the only culprit), what with all the donations, organisation and time put into the game by many of the players.

[BamaBuc]

I hear this a lot, but it is not just a pretend nation game, it is a pretend nation game a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money on - $20 a month for a couple of years, nurturing a nation every day and spending time with an in-game alliance and a community held together with nations at the centre, only for it all to be demolished in a couple of weeks by a cassus belli you probably find bogus, only to find your friends leaving the game and all your money and time and hard work down the drain.

This doesn't justify a DDoS (and I don't support it), but it does provide insight to the anger and reasoning as to why people do it; calling CN just an online pretend nation game is a pretty ignorant and often repeated saying (not that you started it or are the only culprit), what with all the donations, organisation and time put into the game by many of the players.

Spending the $20 is your choice... Many of us never spend a cent on CN. I certainly agree that we've all put a lot of our time and effort into it. There have been times I've flipped out over CN for that reason. And you know what? I always regretted it later. No matter how much time, effort, and even money you put into it, it's still a game. Release your anger IN the game... not out of it. I do see what you're saying though.

-Bama

[bros]

Fair enough, that doesn't change the point. Their motives are still more likely based on thills and personal fun than some IC notion of justice.

Yeah. Attacking a site is fun

Especially seeing their reactions.

You know this case (and computer stuff in general) far better than I do, so I'll take your word for it. Still, my point is that someone's RL server (their RL business) is being attacked because IRON hurt someone in a game.

-Bama

Well the host should know how to better protect against a ddos attack. They could just rewrite the mod_rewrite file or whatever it is called on the server and just deny access to the user agent of the zombies.

[BamaBuc]

Well the host should know how to better protect against a ddos attack. They could just rewrite the mod_rewrite file or whatever it is called on the server and just deny access to the user agent of the zombies.

So if my house gets vandalized, and the guy gets away with it because I have a crap alarm system, it's the alarm company's fault? Sure, they let me down as their client, but they did not commit the attack. Just saying... While the host maybe could have stopped it, the perpetrator is the one who did it.

-Bama

[Electron Sponge]

So if my house gets vandalized, and the guy gets away with it because I have a crap alarm system, it's the alarm company's fault? Sure, they let me down as their client, but they did not commit the attack. Just saying... While the host maybe could have stopped it, the perpetrator is the one who did it.

-Bama

Your analogy fails.

More like some guys were having a party and you and all your friends showed up and trashed the place, so he comes back and welds your mailbox shut.

[BamaBuc]

Your analogy fails.

More like some guys were having a party and you and all your friends showed up and trashed the place, so he comes back and welds your mailbox shut.

Show me where IRON destroyed anyone's property ("trashing the place"), and I will concede the point. And no, your nation is not your property.

Feel free to rebut my response to you a few posts back, as well. I'm interested to see your response.

-Bama

[bros]

So if my house gets vandalized, and the guy gets away with it because I have a crap alarm system, it's the alarm company's fault? Sure, they let me down as their client, but they did not commit the attack. Just saying... While the host maybe could have stopped it, the perpetrator is the one who did it.

-Bama

The host would just have to do something that'd take a second to do.

They are lazy overselling !@#$%^&*.

[Firkked]

The host would just have to do something that'd take a second to do.

They are lazy overselling !@#$%^&*.

Through all this I have the distinct impression that you and ES have read up on Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

Without directly stating a sense of glee over the misfortunes of IRON or having knowledge of the identity and aims of the attacker(s) you limit your official scorn, here, for the Host/provider of the forum rather than the CN nations leading IRON, but have not disagreed that the attacks have originated due to some issue in the game.

Also do you have experience with the host company? or are you basing their "predatory" business practices off of some innate commercial acumen that we are currently unaware of?

Making accusations like these only paints you as sympathizers of the attackers rather than Devil's Advocates. Perhaps you have contacted the host directly and given them your words of advice, or perhaps not; This all depends on your motivation in continuing this debate.

Given the tenor and content of your previous posts I have my own conjectures and they have nothing to do with wishing IRON to get their forums back any time soon.

Forums do not make or break an alliance, they merely provide a place to hang out and pass information, but they are not the only tool in the arsenal to be able to do that. Continuing the forum attacks will only allow IRON to show what they have always done - remain strong in the face of adversity and claim success at the end of the day.

In the meantime the host and their other customers, regardless of the quality of service provided, is suffering unjustly. If either of you have advice that can mitigate the attacks I suggest you pass it on to the host rather than wring your hands and wail in here TYVM.

[Tom Litler]

Spending the $20 is your choice... Many of us never spend a cent on CN. I certainly agree that we've all put a lot of our time and effort into it. There have been times I've flipped out over CN for that reason. And you know what? I always regretted it later. No matter how much time, effort, and even money you put into it, it's still a game. Release your anger IN the game... not out of it. I do see what you're saying though.

-Bama

It's kind of difficult to "release" your anger in the game when people don't let you play the game in peace until a point where you have anything to release.