Trouble at the MCXA?

[Raunchero]

We shall see what will come of this.

In the mean time, good luck TSO and thank you all who left for the contributions you made in MCXA while you were here. It is much appreciated.

As far as MCXA, please do not troll in here any longer. We have a lot of work to do back home.

[OPArsenal]

ouch.

that was a good catch pezstar.

@ dr. dan. I believe the first part of the post that pezstar linked is a more closely related to this situation (which just happens to be the part you left off when you quoted it)

I never would have guessed that there would be selective quoting in this announcement.

[Virillus]

"fFight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight!"

Am I doing it right?

[theArrowheadian]

"fFight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight!"

Am I doing it right?

So you should say please.

[RandomInterrupt]

Okay, I just read through this entire thread. I'll do a summary and maybe save others the pain I have now endured.

ITT:

1. Some of the worst posters on planet Bob (ie watchman) call some of the most intelligent people in the game (ie Penguin) ignorant.

2. TSO admits to recruiting from MCXA, hurting the MCXA in the process, to form a new alliance in the middle of their terms in government.

3. TOP protects this alliance despite admitting to a crime that usually leads to war.

4. TOP trolls the thread (surprise!)

5. Several very seasoned and experienced posters ask valid questions in a respectful manner. They are ignored.

6. Baron deSandersted shows up and makes the world smile.

7. MCXA gets a new lease on life, a chance to turn around and finally become a decent alliance after so long of sucking.

8. Some of the worst most offensive and disrespectful players gather together under the protection of the another alliance full of offensive and disrespectful players. There is much glee at the opportunities that may arise.

That's pretty much the highlights really. As to my personal comment, I really hope the MCXA can recover from this attempt to hurt them from within, and turns this act of aggression into a positive opportunity. It will be hard to do, but they can pull it off if they try.

[Sephiroth]

Its not really anyone's place to call for action except MCXA if they felt they were wronged, although it seems some here are trying to stir things up between MCXA and TSO out of boredom. If TSO members who were formally MCXA wanted to leave and did leave, I don't see why others feel the need to get involved in this. Alliances live and die based on the will of the members to keep it going, so MCXA will be fine as long as the remaining MCXA members consider it worthy of continuing, which is for them to decide, not people on the OWF.

Good luck to both MCXA and TSO.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Methrage

[Ardus]

Okay, I just read through this entire thread. I'll do a summary and maybe save others the pain I have now endured.

ITT:

1. Some of the worst posters on planet Bob (ie watchman) call some of the most intelligent people in the game (ie Penguin) ignorant.

2. TSO admits to recruiting from MCXA, hurting the MCXA in the process, to form a new alliance in the middle of their terms in government.

3. TOP protects this alliance despite admitting to a crime that usually leads to war.

4. TOP trolls the thread (surprise!)

5. Several very seasoned and experienced posters ask valid questions in a respectful manner. They are ignored.

6. Baron deSandersted shows up and makes the world smile.

7. MCXA gets a new lease on life, a chance to turn around and finally become a decent alliance after so long of sucking.

8. Some of the worst most offensive and disrespectful players gather together under the protection of the another alliance full of offensive and disrespectful players. There is much glee at the opportunities that may arise.

That's pretty much the highlights really. As to my personal comment, I really hope the MCXA can recover from this attempt to hurt them from within, and turns this act of aggression into a positive opportunity. It will be hard to do, but they can pull it off if they try.

A fair and balanced review of the thread, this is.

[Urmom]

This whole situation is merely being blown out of proportion by the hungry pack of people wanting drama. People are making wild claims and unwarranted speculation to things that they have little knowledge about. To think that TOP would have signed this protectorate behind MCXA's back is ridiculous. The whole situation sparked quite a discussion on our home boards, and in the end we decided to help out many of our friends in the MCXA that we had come to know during our time in Q with each other. Keep in mind that we just recently signed a treaty with the MCXA, and we spoke closely to the transition government of the MCXA about this and would not have signed it without their approval. You can tell when planet Bob is getting bored when they start talking about Citadel/Continuum wars and ethics.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

I'm not sure what's wrong with the masses wanting TSO and TOP to explain why they aren't all hypocrites, but by all means continue bashing people making logical posts in this thread.

[Urmom]

I'm not sure what's wrong with the masses wanting TSO and TOP to explain why they aren't all hypocrites, but by all means continue bashing people making logical posts in this thread.

I'm pretty sure it's all been explained already, unless you can point to other questions?

[Dr. Dan]

I'm not sure what's wrong with the masses wanting TSO and TOP to explain why they aren't all hypocrites, but by all means continue bashing people making logical posts in this thread.

I don't see what makes TSO hypocrites (perhaps you were looking for a different insult?). As for TOP, it has been answered in the thread about 3 times or so prior to this post. See: Bodvar Jarl, TonytheTiger, & Jstep.

This thread is just a broken record now .

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Dear Great and Powerful Friends of The Sweet Oblivion,

It is extremely sad to see each of you leave the MCXA.

The nation of Alisaunder will declare an official period of

mourning, in answer to your departure.

Our dear friends at TOP should care for you well and I

wish only the best for each of you.

Hail TSO!!

Your Humble Servant,

You were an ambassador to GOONS at one point, weren't you? It's great to see you still kicking around, Baron

[Shodemofi-NPO]

I don't see what makes TSO hypocrites (perhaps you were looking for a different insult?). As for TOP, it has been answered in the thread about 3 times or so prior to this post. See: Bodvar Jarl, TonytheTiger, & Jstep.

This thread is just a broken record now .

No, I was going for hypocrite. They fully support curbstompings on alliances that have done the same thing they did but expect no one to do the same to them. As for TOP, all those posts operate under the apparent falsehood that TSO was outright and open over what they were planning on doing. As we've discovered that the only reason MCXA found out about this when they did is because someone outed them, it takes away the line of argument that they told MCXA about it beforehand, so that makes them different from CEN. They didn't tell MCXA, someone else did.

Admittedly, I know nothing about CEN aside from what's been posted, so I can't say it's exactly like CEN. However, as the main argument against it being similar is that TSO was outright with their plans, the argument is kind of debunked by the information that TSO wasn't.

I'm not calling for TSO to be destroyed, I'm calling for similar standards to be applied throughout CN on what constitutes a CB.

[Urmom]

No, I was going for hypocrite. They fully support curbstompings on alliances that have done the same thing they did but expect no one to do the same to them. As for TOP, all those posts operate under the apparent falsehood that TSO was outright and open over what they were planning on doing. As we've discovered that the only reason MCXA found out about this when they did is because someone outed them, it takes away the line of argument that they told MCXA about it beforehand, so that makes them different from CEN. They didn't tell MCXA, someone else did.

Admittedly, I know nothing about CEN aside from what's been posted, so I can't say it's exactly like CEN. However, as the main argument against it being similar is that TSO was outright with their plans, the argument is kind of debunked by the information that TSO wasn't.

I'm not calling for TSO to be destroyed, I'm calling for similar standards to be applied throughout CN on what constitutes a CB.

I haven't really heard much about this at all, and can't verify if these claims are even true. From my understanding, the group left amicably and the transition government knew ahead of time that they were going to leave.

[theArrowheadian]

I haven't really heard much about this at all, and can't verify if these claims are even true. From my understanding, the group left amicably and the transition government knew ahead of time that they were going to leave.

The general assembly of MCXA was not told, I was just there when TSO was outed and therefor know. I can 100% confirm that only TSO and the group that was the information was outed to only knew until we told the general assembly. By transition government I assume you mean Gopher and Fresh who were invited, but declined. In fact gopher was about to retire until he found out that only he and Fresh would be left, so everyone scrambled into damage control and here we are.

[Dr. Dan]

No, I was going for hypocrite. They fully support curbstompings on alliances that have done the same thing they did but expect no one to do the same to them. As for TOP, all those posts operate under the apparent falsehood that TSO was outright and open over what they were planning on doing. As we've discovered that the only reason MCXA found out about this when they did is because someone outed them, it takes away the line of argument that they told MCXA about it beforehand, so that makes them different from CEN. They didn't tell MCXA, someone else did.

Admittedly, I know nothing about CEN aside from what's been posted, so I can't say it's exactly like CEN. However, as the main argument against it being similar is that TSO was outright with their plans, the argument is kind of debunked by the information that TSO wasn't.

I'm not calling for TSO to be destroyed, I'm calling for similar standards to be applied throughout CN on what constitutes a CB.

Well, I wouldn't call that hypocritical, I'd call that pragmatic. It's in an alliance's best interest to destroy another alliance with as much power as possible. No one wants to be on the receiving end of that power, of course. As for which war in particular you're speaking of, I'm not aware of it, my apologies.

There are other reasons the 2 situations are not similar, such as the extortion of reparations on behalf of CEN. Furthermore, MCXA has given their permission on the protectorate, and thus, both sides are fine with it. The opportunity has presented itself and we have taken it. There is nothing immoral about it. To assume we will never sign a treaty with a splinter alliance is false and already proven false by our current agreements prior to TSO.

As for what constitutes a CB, there will never be consistency due to a conglomerate of opinions on what a good CB is. Consistency in an alliance is a fair request, however, which is why we have bothered even responding to the accusations on CEN.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[Archon]

You know, it's also worth noting that not every CB leads to war...

[BryanViking]

I haven't really heard much about this at all, and can't verify if these claims are even true. From my understanding, the group left amicably and the transition government knew ahead of time that they were going to leave.

I can also confirm that the General Population of MCXA aside form those picked to be apart TSO had no idea what was going on until someone leaked out their concealed Information.

[Rafael Nadal]

Actually the opposite is true. Due to the protectorate MCXA is unable to attack TSO without breaking Q. Q does not allow for member alliances to attack alliances that other member alliances are obliged to give military assistance to.

Looking back over the new pages since I came back from class, this post stood out. If MCXA declared war on TSO for recruiting, TOP would not be allowed to defend TSO due to the Mobius Accords. Recruiting is a viable CB, and the Mobius Accords doesn't protect against those.

Of course, it wouldn't play that way, I know from experience that TOP can and will "interpret" that particular way.

According to the Mobius Accords, you can not attack an alliance directly in treaty to one of the signatories. There is no way it would be "legal".

I like you Dr. Dan, but you might want to ask Crymson for a clarification on that.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[Sephiroth]

I'm not calling for TSO to be destroyed, I'm calling for similar standards to be applied throughout CN on what constitutes a CB.

Just because an alliance chooses to start a war over something doesn't mean it should be repeated, the CB isn't even the real reason for the war some of the times. There would be almost constant war if people used every previous CB in order to start new ones with every opportunity.

[Grinder]

I can also confirm that the General Population of MCXA aside form those picked to be apart TSO had no idea what was going on until someone leaked out their concealed Information.

Well that's something the GA needs to take up with their current government then for their lack of transparency because they knew it was happening the first weekend it was being planned.

[Delta1212]

I haven't really heard much about this at all, and can't verify if these claims are even true. From my understanding, the group left amicably and the transition government knew ahead of time that they were going to leave.

The situation you bolded in Shodemofi's post comes from a post by Dragonaspect earlier in the thread. It's how he described what happened.

[TheyCallMeJeezy]

Just because an alliance chooses to start a war over something doesn't mean it should be repeated, the CB isn't even the real reason for the war some of the times. There would be almost constant war if people used every previous CB in order to start new ones with every opportunity.

Who would recycle a CB when they can be made up out of thin air these days?

[Saber]

Since I believe that some things need to be officially stated and clarified I am posting this.

First of all, The Order of the Paradox will protect and defend The Sweet Oblivion against any foreign threat. Same applies for MCXA and any other ally of TOP. Mess with one of our allies, and you mess with us.

Secondly. Main difference between CEN and TSO situation is that MCXA would not have killed TSO, even if we had not granted them protectorate. New MCXA government has accepted fact that TSO members are leaving, and that they cannot remain part of MCXA any more. They would not have been attack, persecuted or considered traitors to the MCXA. Some people do still harbor resentment as can be observed in this thread, but for those that actually bother reading posts you can tell that vast majority of the drama in this thread is from people who are not members of MCXA. I noticed only a few real MCXA members who were really upset over the situation.

At the same time, several MCXA members expressed completely opposite views where they accepted TSO withdrawal and showed that they will not harbor ill feelings toward TSO.

I am sure that TSO and MCXA will develop a great working relationship very fast, as instead of two groups fighting each other to get their way, both can focus on being the best they can. I'll take a slight history turn now, TOP a long time ago, in early days of WUT was an alliance with two major "political" groups. One side wanted TOP that is isolationistic, neutral, with little to no interference in global politics. Other side wanted TOP that is part of the world, non neutral, with treaties with people we considered friends (NPO, ...). At that time most of our time and energy was spent fighting internally to get one way or another. We were much less efficient then we could have been and our internal stability was questionable. With time we found one side weakening (isolationistic side), so much that today it's almost non existant. TOP nowadays is relatively strongly united in our views how TOP should proceed politically, and this means that we are much more efficient and stable alliance. Always a great characteristic of democratic alliances.

I feel that TSO-MCXA split will do the same for both alliances. Instead of having one alliance with two bodies/groups, they will have two alliances which can do their thing but still remain friends.

This is not some great conspiracy by TOP and TSO to screw over MCXA. We have talked with MCXA before, we have talked with MCXA after this announcement as well and we will continue to talk in the next weeks as well. We have no wish to hurt our relations with our ally MCXA, nor would have we helped TSO out if we thought MCXA is going to bring TSO up on charges.

I must say that I feel that many people here are trying to stir drama. Most of them would love to see TOP, MCXA, TSO or Continuum in an internal struggle and conflict and jumped on this opportunity. Be assured, your attempts will not succeed. Communication within Q, and other allies of TOP is very good and will remain so. Drama queens on these forums will not endanger any of our relations. But, in doing so you are removing mask from your face. Thank you for that. I can see clearly now (the rain is gone).

Thank you.

[Haflinger]

You know, it's also worth noting that not every CB leads to war...

Quite true.

I'm struck by the remarkable similarity of this story to when Ephriam Grey left Invicta and setup Andromeda.

Well, we're not Continuum, but we didn't declare war then. Perhaps we should have. It might have saved a few other alliances.

But we didn't. You don't always have to declare war; there should be some purpose to a war.